What Can Be Done to Recruit Players?

[Darmian]

1 minute ago, InvaderStych said:

It is not the content that will make this game inviting.  It is the players

Yes and no.  It IS the content and it is ALSO the players.  HC's goal is to move forward with the game in terms of cohesive narrative/content/powers, and as a tiny volunteer team that is seen as slow by many, but it's a fact.  The rest is on us. You can argue against the content point but anecdotally at least I personally have never joined a game where the selling point was how great the community is, (Come and join the seal clubbing community!  We do horrible things but the community is a joy!*) and forget about the content.  I've stayed with things because of the community, but I never joined for that reason. I don't think I'm alone when I say I've tried things I thoroughly enjoyed but ended up leaving because the community itself was toxic. 

 

Again, circles.

 

*Obvious hyperbole. I'm not suggesting AE farming or whatever is this!

[Excraft]

10 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Already replied to a similar post.

 

Following up a post ascribing whining to people with another post using snarky quotes to emphasize the point you don't believe "facts" are facts is fairly acerbic, yeah?

 

You can find plenty of proof right here on these forums. I would help you, but as I mentioned, I'm not inclined to take your perspective seriously when your method of disseminating it uses such pointed remarks.

 

Right so you don't really have any facts to back up your statements.  You're welcome to your opinions, but please don't try to pass them off as facts.

 

4 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Only after that happened could you perhaps say one or two people decided to blame farming outright, perpetuating the strawman and justifying your position after-the-fact.

 

So you're trying to call someone out on a strawman while admitting people are calling for AE nerfing and/or removal - and that somehow constitutes a strawman?  I don't think you know what you're talking about here.

 

25 minutes ago, Darmian said:

However, if it ever seems that removing AE from starting zones would somehow benefit the main game then I expect it will be seriously considered.

 

Removing AE from the low level zones is a non-starter.  It doesn't solve the problem of attracting new players in the first place and no one has any direct empirical evidence beyond pure opinion and conjecture that it'll help with retention or that it's the cause of the declining population.  Nor is there any data to show it will help with player retention. 

 

It's fine to make the suggestion, but the idea doesn't work for a variety of reasons - all my opinion of course;

 

1. There's no evidence AE being in the starter zones is what's causing the population decline, nor is there evidence that it isn't.  Without hard data, it's a mistake to guess that's the problem invest the limited available time to removing it.
2. It ignores the possibility that AE being in a convenient place can help with player retention. 
3. It ignores that having options for new players is a good thing.
4. The idea only addresses catering to a certain type of new player and ignores the rest.  Understandable since most people have difficulty seeing outside their own bubble.
5. DFB and DiB runs will still be a thing which let a new player bypass early content very quickly.
6. There may be new players who are into PvP and don't want to level up the old fashioned way or through story content and want to level up fast so they can enjoy the activities they like and avoid the activities they don't.
7. No one is forced into joining fire farms.
8. There would still be farms advertised on LFG for them to join in other zones and other zones are just a tram ride or base portal hop away.
9. P2W vendors still exist starter zones (and in the tutorial) where new players have access to double XP boosters right from the start.  They'll out level a lot of the early game just by using those doing normal content without ever setting foot in AE.
10. The argument of "missing out on all the game has to offer" doesn't really work.  By the time you hit 20, you've pretty much encountered every mission type the game has to offer.  The NPCs and contacts change, the rinse and repeat activities remain the same.  I know some don't want to admit it, but people do find that boring.
11. The argument that using AE to power level breaks any kind of emotional investment in a character is a false assumption.  See PvP players and anyone who doesn't want to level up umpteen alts through grinding story content.

I could add a lot more if I sat here a few more hours lol.

 

What I personally feel would help to bring in new players the most has already been brought up here in this thread; us - the community.   Word of mouth can go a long way. 

 

I have to ask, what are the people out there who feel AE farms are driving off new players doing about it?  Are you investing the time in game to create teams to introduce new players to the game?  Are you making posts on social media to advertise and attract new players? 

 

I play fairly regularly and I never see anyone offering to help new players out by running them through story content.  If it's really that important to you, then do something about it and do your best to make an impact. 

[Excraft]

19 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

Removing options is not going to increase the player count.  Those options are this game's greatest strength.

 

Absolutely 100% spot on!

[InvaderStych]

4 minutes ago, Darmian said:

I've stayed with things because of the community, but I never joined for that reason. I don't think I'm alone when I say I've tried things I thoroughly enjoyed but ended up leaving because the community itself was toxic. 

 

Exactly my point.

 

New content will bring a brief influx of players and I applaud the HC's teams efforts in this direction.

 

But if the community is the typical internet shit-storm, that influx will bail after the content has been played.

 

My point was about player retention, not recruitment.

 

I can say, unequivocally, that if I was brand new to this game and read this thread I would react with the following on my way out the door:

 

[Darmian]

7 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Exactly my point.

 

New content will bring a brief influx of players and I applaud the HC's teams efforts in this direction.

 

But if the community is the typical internet shit-storm, that influx will bail after the content has been played.

 

My point was about player retention, not recruitment.

 

I can say, unequivocally, that if I was brand new to this game and read this thread I would react with the following on my way out the door:

 

We appear to then be "violently in agreement", as I heard someone say once!

 

As has been pointed out there's been a definite eliding of retention and recruitment.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Darmian

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, ForeverLaxx said:

@ShardWarrior

My initial comment wasn't directed at you, but you quoted me anyway so I responded. If you're seriously trying to turn this around and pretend you're being targeted, that's really sad. I'm not dignifying the rest of your insanity with a response.

 

I cannot help it if you are wrong and are contradicting yourself with your own posts.  But whatever, good day to you.

[InvaderStych]

1 minute ago, Darmian said:

"violently in agreement"

 

That's a keeper quote! 👍

[ShardWarrior]

25 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

Removing options is not going to increase the player count.  Those options are this game's greatest strength.

 

The best way to retain players is Community. 

 

Well said! Could not agree more.

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 hours ago, Crysis said:

My point isn’t to belittle our opinions.  But to recognize what matters to US here in this thread is likely nowhere near what matters to players of those other current top MMO’s.

 

I get your point but we are still gamers. Many of us play other games. CoH isn't the only MMO I've ever played but it is the only one I've played for longer than a month.

 

I just don't find any of it relevant to the point that forum regulars are some psychotic offshoot of humanity with no relation to the gaming population as a whole. Take 100 non-forum goers and dump them into the forums and they're going to end up having the same opinions we already read around here not because the forum somehow creates a hive-mind but because there's only so many opinions that can exist.

 

Farming: It's either bad, good or irrelevant.

Tank changes: They're either over the top, brought tanks in line with the other melee sets or they still aren't enough.

 

Sure, I'll grant that a forum regular will have more knowledge in general with regards to the mechanics of the game and the general goings on but we're all still just people playing the game.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Neiska]

After some thought I still say that the best philosophy is - "You play the game how you enjoy. I shall play the game how I enjoy. And we will meet in the middle somewhere" I do suspect if some players (direct at no one specifically) are perhaps focusing a bit too much on what others are doing, instead of their own play and activities. Moreover I still question the concept that changing/removing/altering one aspect of play such as AE will foster a sudden growth in people who want to do open world content. As if the majority of farmers have ONLY farmed, and have not in fact, already have done the other content already, as much as they desire to. So where is this concept that changing their current activity will somehow want them to go back to content they have already sampled? Were I a betting woman I would bet the opposite would happen - instead of farmers doing open world content on occasion as it is now, farmers suddenly unable to farm would be more likely to leave the game entirely, making the current community/population problem even more prevalent.

 

And to be honest, I am starting to find the entire idea reaching the point of ridiculousness. I mean we don't hear Farmers going "We should nerf all nonfarm content, here is why" or Pvpers going "We need to nerf/remove all non pvp activities." We have only heard this kind of argument from PVE folks, which I find troubling as a PVE person myself. And, this is just purely me speculating, this argument makes me wonder that if some of these people who feel they have the right to call for nerfs/changes in the game that other people enjoy, solely for the fact of artificially forcing those same people to play with the originator of the argument, then perhaps those same originators are simply not pleasant to play the game with or be around, particularly if they feel so motivated that they feel they have the right to dictate to other fellow players the "right" or "wrong" way to play the game, as mere players themselves. 

 

TLDR - Perhaps focus on your own enjoyment and gameplay first, and stop worrying about what other people are doing. If you can't find other people to do the activities you enjoy, I wonder why "other" people have to do activities "you" enjoy, instead of "you" being strong-armed into activities "they" enjoy. Just food for thought.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Neiska
Clarification.

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

I mean we don't hear Farmers going "We should nerf all nonfarm content, here is why" or Pvpers going "We need to nerf/remove all non pvp activities." We have only heard this kind of argument from PVE folks, which I find troubling as a PVE person myself.

 

I honestly haven't heard anyone say that "we should nerf farming content".

I don't think AE Farming should have been allowed to begin with (The DEVs stated that they would ban accounts that created farming missions prior to the release of AE and then caved after release  of the AE because banning players became - I'm assuming - an issue. I think they said something like they were going to take a 40-ton ban hammer to anyone that created exploitive/farming content on the live servers. And promptly deleted that post after they caved.), but I have never said it needed to be nerfed. 

 

I will say that I thought it was bad enough in that people were doing it in actual game missions by not completing maps and resetting them.

I do put farming missions into the barrel of the old herd all the warwolves into a dumpster thing (and that was something that was a farm and an obvious exploit/cheating).

I never complained about either needing to be nerfed but I didn't join teams doing either.

 

I have been known to say that I think PL'ing and farming are an issue and that they take away from player retention. 

 

I don't know of anyone that has said "We need to nerf/remove all PVP activities" from the City.

I don't even know where that one is coming from.

What I see is players thinking that the DEVs don't need to take additional time working on content that only benefits a small portion of the community ... unless of course, that is something that they want to work on personally. 

 

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

Moreover I still question the concept that changing/removing/altering one aspect of play such as AE will foster a sudden growth in people who want to do open world content.

 

It's not a subject brought up to lure people into playing CoH.

It is about player retention and continued involvement.

 

We know what gets people to try a game. Positive advertizing or word or mouth.

I am no expert, but targeting your advertizing audience is key.

Who is going to want to play City of Heroes and do they have access to a computer powerful enough to play it (which isn't the issue it used to be)?

 

I wonder who would want to run around dressed up as a superhero in a MMORPG?

Maybe Cosplayers? One would think comic book and superhero movie fans.

 

On the cheap? Fliers and those little tear off a phone number things with homecoming's website address on it. Hand out at conventions and post up on comic book shops and gaming stores.

 

More time consuming? make videos praising what you think is great about CoH.

 

More expensive? Rent a both at a convention, setup computer, and play the game. Invite people (cosplayer) to check out the character creator.

 

Am I going to do any of this? No.

Do I want or expect Homecoming to do any of this? No.

If YOU want more players these are things for YOU to do.

 

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

If you can't find other people to do the activities you enjoy, I wonder why "other" people have to do activities "you" enjoy, instead of "you" being strong-armed into activities "they" enjoy.

 

No one should be "strong-armed" into anything.

People are here to game and have fun.

If they don't want to farm, don't farm.

if they don't want to PVP, then don't PVP.

 

But I think that players that sit at a door and level up to 50 and know nothing about the end-game are not going to become long-term players.

I don't think players coming to CoH expecting to find a vibrant and active PVP community are going to find one and they likely aren't going to like the mechanics they are looking for.

 

City of Heroes was created to be a superhero MMORPG with superheros teaming-up to run missions fighting as a team against PVE foes with an incredible character customization system.

If you get players that are looking for those things, then you will get players that will continue to enjoy playing CoH.

 

Other retention items are an enjoyable player base, finding friends to consistently game with, and having people that are willing to help you figure out this incredibly complex game.

[Neiska]

3 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

I honestly haven't heard anyone say that "we should nerf farming content".

I don't think AE Farming should have been allowed to begin with (The DEVs stated that they would ban accounts that created farming missions prior to the release of AE and then caved after release  of the AE because banning players became - I'm assuming - an issue. I think they said something like they were going to take a 40-ton ban hammer to anyone that created exploitive/farming content on the live servers. And promptly deleted that post after they caved.), but I have never said it needed to be nerfed. 

 

I will say that I thought it was bad enough in that people were doing it in actual game missions by not completing maps and resetting them.

I do put farming missions into the barrel of the old herd all the warwolves into a dumpster thing (and that was something that was a farm and an obvious exploit/cheating).

I never complained about either needing to be nerfed but I didn't join teams doing either.

 

I have been known to say that I think PL'ing and farming are an issue and that they take away from player retention. 

 

I don't know of anyone that has said "We need to nerf/remove all PVP activities" from the City.

I don't even know where that one is coming from.

What I see is players thinking that the DEVs don't need to take additional time working on content that only benefits a small portion of the community ... unless of course, that is something that they want to work on personally. 

 

 

It's not a subject brought up to lure people into playing CoH.

It is about player retention and continued involvement.

 

We know what gets people to try a game. Positive advertizing or word or mouth.

I am no expert, but targeting your advertizing audience is key.

Who is going to want to play City of Heroes and do they have access to a computer powerful enough to play it (which isn't the issue it used to be)?

 

I wonder who would want to run around dressed up as a superhero in a MMORPG?

Maybe Cosplayers? One would think comic book and superhero movie fans.

 

On the cheap? Fliers and those little tear off a phone number things with homecoming's website address on it. Hand out at conventions and post up on comic book shops and gaming stores.

 

More time consuming? make videos praising what you think is great about CoH.

 

More expensive? Rent a both at a convention, setup computer, and play the game. Invite people (cosplayer) to check out the character creator.

 

Am I going to do any of this? No.

Do I want or expect Homecoming to do any of this? No.

If YOU want more players these are things for YOU to do.

 

 

No one should be "strong-armed" into anything.

People are here to game and have fun.

If they don't want to farm, don't farm.

if they don't want to PVP, then don't PVP.

 

But I think that players that sit at a door and level up to 50 and know nothing about the end-game are not going to become long-term players.

I don't think players coming to CoH expecting to find a vibrant and active PVP community are going to find one and they likely aren't going to like the mechanics they are looking for.

 

City of Heroes was created to be a superhero MMORPG with superheros teaming-up to run missions fighting as a team against PVE foes with an incredible character customization system.

If you get players that are looking for those things, then you will get players that will continue to enjoy playing CoH.

 

Other retention items are an enjoyable player base, finding friends to consistently game with, and having people that are willing to help you figure out this incredibly complex game.

 

Thank you for your reply. You touched on several points which I will try to address individually.

 

1. - I honestly haven't heard anyone say that "we should nerf farming content".

I don't think AE Farming should have been allowed to begin with (The DEVs stated that they would ban accounts that created farming missions prior to the release of AE and then caved after release  of the AE because banning players became - I'm assuming - an issue. I think they said something like they were going to take a 40-ton ban hammer to anyone that created exploitive/farming content on the live servers. And promptly deleted that post after they caved.), but I have never said it needed to be nerfed. 

 

- My reply to this is that you must not have looked very heard, either on the forums, even here in this thread, in the discord, or perhaps the most important place of all - actually ingame. If I had to give a rough restimation, I would say I see that precise topic come up at least once a week, in any one of the various places mentioned. About your comment with the DEVs - HC is not "Live." The Devs of Live, have little say in HC, or vice versa. They use the same game engine, but different rules with a different community and different host. So your comparison is largely moot. Wither or not "Live" had farms/ae has little baring or relevance on if we have farms here and now.

 

2. - I will say that I thought it was bad enough in that people were doing it in actual game missions by not completing maps and resetting them.

I do put farming missions into the barrel of the old herd all the warwolves into a dumpster thing (and that was something that was a farm and an obvious exploit/cheating).

I never complained about either needing to be nerfed but I didn't join teams doing either.

 

I have been known to say that I think PL'ing and farming are an issue and that they take away from player retention.

 

-My reply to this is that, no matter what rules you try to enforce, either here or in any other game, someone with the intelligence to do so will figure out the fastest most efficient way to gain levels, currency, or whatever that game has. As an example, during one expansion of WOW, the first person to level cap figured out that the fastest way to gain exp was not by fighting or questing, but by traveling around and getting all the mining nodes. And that person hit the new level cap hours ahead of anyone else. Point of the matter is, for some people out there, both figuring out, as well as being the fastest/most efficient way to do something, "is" their main enjoyment, no matter the game. For such persons, often enough different games are just décor and garnish, they find the numbers, the theory crafting, and simulations more entertaining than the game itself.

 

As far as your personal stance on PL'ing and what you believe its effects are on player retention, well, thank you for proving my point. First off, you have no proof that it does, or that it doesnt. None of us do. Only the hosts have access to such data. And it is generally an ill advised action to make rules and policy based on "I think's" or "I feel's," no matter the context.

 

3.  I don't know of anyone that has said "We need to nerf/remove all PVP activities" from the City.

I don't even know where that one is coming from.

What I see is players thinking that the DEVs don't need to take additional time working on content that only benefits a small portion of the community ... unless of course, that is something that they want to work on personally.

 

- My statement in this was meant to be an illustration of how ridiculous this same argument would sound coming from any other group/faction. If you re-read what I wrote again you might realize I was highlighting that we DON'T hear such arguments from people who enjoy those other playstyles, ONLY from those in the "die hard open world content only" crowd, as if that was the single activity, method, or source of enjoyment in the game. (Which it is not.) And in case this is lost on you, I find the fact we have NOT heard such arguments pretty telling.

 

4. No one should be "strong-armed" into anything.

People are here to game and have fun.

If they don't want to farm, don't farm.

if they don't want to PVP, then don't PVP.

 

But I think that players that sit at a door and level up to 50 and know nothing about the end-game are not going to become long-term players.

I don't think players coming to CoH expecting to find a vibrant and active PVP community are going to find one and they likely aren't going to like the mechanics they are looking for.

 

- I both agree and disagree. We agree that no one should be "strong-armed" into anything. But you go in one statement from "no one should be strong armed" to "door sitting is wrong" in the same statement. That doesn't strike you as a bit of a paradox? You say people should be free to play their way, then immediately say you don't approve of how they play? And, you have no proof/evidence that new players who level up to 50 and then play DON'T continue to do so, any more than you can prove that they DO. Which makes your entire point purely hypothetical or instinctual. 

 

You are certainly free to play your way. But this is precisely the sort of thinking that I was illustrating in my previous post with regards to "stop worrying about what everyone else is doing." And I say this for many reasons. Because 1. You, myself, nor any player on the forums is in a position to do anything about it, and 2. threads like these do more harm than good, what is a new player supposed to think when they come cross such a post? To me it would come across as a veteran player who is gatekeeping, which is not something I would care to partake in personally. So if I did play the game, it would only further incentivize me to go strictly solo in missions, farms, or whatever else.

 

Best wishes.

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

It's not a subject brought up to lure people into playing CoH.

It is about player retention and continued involvement.

 

The idea that the solutions to any of the "problems" put forth here in this and other similar threads are needed for player retention can demonstrably be proven wrong.  Quite easily as a matter of fact.

 

I cannot speak for everyone, however I am still here despite AE being in starter zones, free XP boosts from the P2W vendor, fire farming, DFB or whatever other "issues" others have with the game.  There is no question a great many of us continue to be here and continue to be involved with the game and/or the community on one level or another.  None of the suggested changes or "fixes" introduced in this thread were required to retain us and there is no reason to believe the game as it is now cannot and would not attract new players with some of them  finding parts they enjoy enough to keep playing.  It worked for us, it can work for others.

 

As others have (correctly in my opinion) pointed out earlier in the thread, word of mouth will help advertise and a helpful community will go a long way toward player retention.

Edited April 28, 2022 by ShardWarrior

[Snarky]

Arguing endlessly on community boards.  That is what brings in new players.  Guaranteed 

[Neiska]

7 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Arguing endlessly on community boards.  That is what brings in new players.  Guaranteed 

 

Present a problem or point of contention, add opinion A, sprinkle opinion B, add in a bit of @Snarky and the new players will come! It's Science!

[Cancrusher]

Not gonna lie:  Snarky's curmudgeonly commentary is at least 1/10th of the reason I keep playing COH.  😁

 

For those of you really worried about this issue, I'd like to point out the following:  The continued existence of this game is not at all tied to the number of players in the first place.  It is not a for-profit enterprise.  It's a hobby ran by the developers and the game and servers will remain for as long as the devs are interested and enjoying the task of hosting the servers.

 

To ensure the long term existence of Homecoming, I would suggest that it's far more important to just keep enjoying the game that we have, while expressing to the devs how much we appreciate their good efforts.  Also, keep our suggestions helpful and polite without too much bitching and moaning.

 

[Ukase]

7 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

Removing options is not going to increase the player count.  Those options are this game's greatest strength.

 

The best way to retain players is Community. 

This is emphatically true. 

I am in an SG. It's a large SG that has a lot of rules. Recently, some rules changed. Some for the better, some not so good. If it weren't for the few relationships I've formed within it, I would simply quit the SG, as their base is too large to be of any practical use. All those useless decorations - literally a costume shop - complete with Icon contacts - and yes, what appears to be racks of clothing - all for you to see before you can get to the workshop or teleporters. Interesting the first couple of times, but after that - move that crap out of the way and let the portals be much closer to the base entry. But - that's just me, and I'm digressing. 

The point remains - relationships, often built more easily over discord and other tools are going to be what glues the community together. These zone events like MSRs and hami raids - many people aren't comfortable with discord, and in fact, some folks detest it for their own reasons - but overall, you can build ties more easily using it in zone events than you might otherwise. Primarily because a number of folks find it easier to say something funny than to type it. If it's an event with any difficulty, you can require Push to Talk to limit the number of folks talking over the league leader. And there's no rule that says everyone or anyone has to talk - but if it's there, generally, it allows for social discourse, and that's going to go along way to building relationships. 

[Ironblade]

3 hours ago, Cancrusher said:

Not gonna lie:  Snarky's curmudgeonly commentary is at least 1/10th of the reason I keep playing COH.  😁

 

He's entertaining live, too.  I'm in an SG with him.  🙂

[Ukase]

2 hours ago, Ironblade said:

He's entertaining live, too.  I'm in an SG with him.  🙂

Both of you are a couple of the reasons I remain in the SG. Along with a few others. I still use my own base, though. It's nice not suffering lag as soon as you zone into a base, lol. 

 

[Snarky]

2 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Both of you are a couple of the reasons I remain in the SG. Along with a few others. I still use my own base, though. It's nice not suffering lag as soon as you zone into a base, lol. 

 

replace the potato.  or chain a few potatoes together!

[Troo]

??

[TerroirNoir]

Lot of opinions flying.  (ducks!)

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Krimson said:

The last two hours on Excelsior during peak reminds me why I play mostly melee these days. I can find a team OR I can play solo. Log in on a squishy and dead air for the last two hours. 😄 Guess I'll just stick to toons that can play solo. I don't even want to imagine what the other shards are like. 

 

I joined a PUG Tinpex earlier. 5 scrappers. Maybe squishies should get mez protection just due to low player population.

[Troo]

If felt the need to post some sort of metric after posting potato

 

 

"joined the community" count for the past 3 hours on a Thursday = 11

 

that pace 24/7 would be 2,400+ a month. even 1/3 that is 800 "joined the community" per month.

 

just sayin..

[JacksonRooks]

The only thing that would solve the game's population problem is to add more post 50 content. No amount of slowing leveling or nerfing powers is going to help at this point: Those horses have left the barn.

 

If the team was serious about actually getting people to play the game, they'd have spent 100% of their efforts on new zones, new story arcs, new missions, etc. Instead they create or proliferate a few mediocre power sets and waste time "rebalancing" things like TW and then make a shocked Pikachu face when people lose interest and leave.