Change Confront and Assassin's Strike into a distance-closing attack

[Solvernia]

Modern video game design ensures that all melee class players have a chance to quickly close the distance to attack their target from afar, reducing frustration and making the game far more playable. Right now this is doable with Speed of Sound or Combat Teleport on every character, but it would be better to make this a main feature of melee ATs. There's no reason to waste a pool power pick on something that should be a basic part of an AT.

 

Scrappers should have their objectively useless single-target taunt augmented with a quick teleport function that teleports them immediately to a nearby target. Since long-form AS is not very effective on Stalkers thanks to its terrible DPA, it would also be a good idea to incorporate a teleport component into AS to make up for this -- especially since their taunt is already replaced by a placate.

 

No adjustment would be made here other than adding a teleport and damage component to Confront, and a teleport component to Assassin's Strike. This would make Confront actually worth taking, and give Scrappers/Stalkers an easier way to engage specific targets in melee, increasing their value and helping to diverge their playstyle from Tanks and Brutes.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Solvernia

[PeregrineFalcon]

3 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

Right now this is doable with Speed of Sound or Combat Teleport on every character

 

[Rudra]

I was intrigued up until you dumped on AS. The only thing I find problematic with long-form AS right now is how often it alerts enemies to your presence even though it is not supposed to. That however, is a bug. Long-form AS is fine as an opener, and we have short-form to make up the difference during combat. Leave AS alone. (Unless you're going to fix the enemies detect you before you land the hit problem.)

 

Edit: Oh yeah, wouldn't that be redundant with some melee power sets which already include a teleport to target attack?

Edited April 27, 2022 by Rudra

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

Modern video game design ensures that all melee class players have a chance to quickly close the distance to attack their target from afar, reducing frustration and making the game far more playable. Right now this is doable with Speed of Sound or Combat Teleport on every character, but it would be better to make this a main feature of melee ATs.

 

Scrappers should have their objectively useless single-target taunt replaced with a quick teleport attack that teleports them immediately to a nearby target. Tankers and Brutes can have their AoE taunt check incorporated into this 'charge' power as well. Since long-form AS is useless on Stalkers thanks to its terrible DPA, it would also be a good idea to incorporate a teleport component into AS while hidden to make up for this -- especially since their taunt is already replaced by a placate.

 

First and foremost, Homecoming is a revival of an old game, so broad-sweeping changes like this are a non-starter.  Second, as you pointed out, the tools are already available, in the forms of combat teleport and speed of sound, so just take said power(s) and skip the taunt...

[The_Warpact]

[Lazarillo]

I have distance-closer.  It's called "jumping".

Edited April 27, 2022 by Lazarillo

[Luminara]

48 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

Modern video game design ensures that all melee class players have a chance to quickly close the distance to attack their target from afar, reducing frustration and making the game far more playable. Right now this is doable with Speed of Sound or Combat Teleport on every character, but it would be better to make this a main feature of melee ATs.

 

Scrappers should have their objectively useless single-target taunt replaced with a quick teleport attack that teleports them immediately to a nearby target. Tankers and Brutes can have their AoE taunt check incorporated into this 'charge' power as well. Since long-form AS is useless on Stalkers thanks to its terrible DPA, it would also be a good idea to incorporate a teleport component into AS while hidden to make up for this -- especially since their taunt is already replaced by a placate.

 

Power sets aren't designed to be identical copies of one another, or to meet anyone's specified gaming expectations, they're designed around themes.  What would be the thematic method for, say, Claws to teleport?  What about Staff?  How, exactly, does a Broadsword or Axe or having one's body covered in Thorns/Spines cause the wielder to appear in the middle of a spawn 60' away?

Outline the powers you'd like to see created, how they should function and how they fit within the sets, then put them on the table as replacements, and have better reasons for replacing powers than "I don't want to use a pool power to do this" or "Other games are doing it, why don't we?", and you'll have a proposal worthy of further discussion.

[TraumaTrain]

I run to toward the enemy.

 

/em trainwhistle

 

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by TraumaTrain

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Solvernia said:

Modern video game design ensures that all melee class players have a chance to quickly close the distance to attack their target from afar, reducing frustration and making the game far more playable. Right now this is doable with Speed of Sound or Combat Teleport on every character, but it would be better to make this a main feature of melee ATs.

 

Scrappers should have their objectively useless single-target taunt replaced with a quick teleport attack that teleports them immediately to a nearby target. Tankers and Brutes can have their AoE taunt check incorporated into this 'charge' power as well. Since long-form AS is useless on Stalkers thanks to its terrible DPA, it would also be a good idea to incorporate a teleport component into AS while hidden to make up for this -- especially since their taunt is already replaced by a placate.

 

Weapon powersets could ninja leap to next target with a downward attack that knocks down a small AoE, or alternately sprint and use an upward attack with a small knockup AoE.

Similar for other style powersets.

Could be an idea for a repurposed CoX but not for the current game and replacing all taunts AND definitely not replacing AS. You cray cray. 🙂

[Uun]

The purpose of taunt powers is to cause foes to come to you. Working as intended.

[TheZag]

Generally when i taunt i want the enemies to come to me.  I could maybe see this as a thing in pvp but there are alot of tools in place already to move around fast.

[Arbegla]

Call me crazy, but doesn't Taunt already have a -range component to it just for this exact purpose?

[Solvernia]

21 hours ago, Rudra said:

I was intrigued up until you dumped on AS. The only thing I find problematic with long-form AS right now is how often it alerts enemies to your presence even though it is not supposed to. That however, is a bug. Long-form AS is fine as an opener, and we have short-form to make up the difference during combat. Leave AS alone. (Unless you're going to fix the enemies detect you before you land the hit problem.)

 

Edit: Oh yeah, wouldn't that be redundant with some melee power sets which already include a teleport to target attack?

DPA on long form AS is terrible. The only reason to use it is for RP purposes. You're better off getting an immediate crit with your strongest attack, using AS right after, and using the hide proc in AS to crit again with your strongest attack. Much more damage in the same amount of time.

[Solvernia]

21 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

I have distance-closer.  It's called "jumping".

 

18 hours ago, TraumaTrain said:

I run to toward the enemy.

 

/em trainwhistle

 

 

 

Considering how travel powers are suppressed in combat, this makes moving from group to group incredibly frustrating. 40mph run/jump is not fun in the middle of combat when enemy groups are very far apart. It also makes it difficult to control your character when travel suppression suddenly ends and you're sailing far away from your intended target. This is ancient, outdated game design and it is not fun.

 

I should not be forced to take a pool power in order to do something that should be a basic function of melee classes, like it is in every other modern MMO. There is absolutely no reason to take taunt on scrappers no matter how hard you try to justify it, and it's much less useful than, say, a targeted AoE attack for grabbing aggro on brutes and tanks, so repurpose it into a power that does the same thing but in a way that doesn't make the game unfun to play.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Solvernia

[Ghost]

3 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

in a way that doesn't make the game unfun to play.

First time I’ve heard this makes the game “unfun to play”

Perhaps you are the only one who feels this way.  If so, why should the game be changed to accommodate you?

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

 

 

Considering how travel powers are suppressed in combat, this makes moving from group to group incredibly frustrating. 40mph run/jump is not fun in the middle of combat when enemy groups are very far apart. It also makes it difficult to control your character when travel suppression suddenly ends and you're sailing far away from your intended target. This is ancient, outdated game design and it is not fun.

 

I should not be forced to take a pool power in order to do something that should be a basic function of melee classes, like it is in every other modern MMO. There is absolutely no reason to take taunt on scrappers no matter how hard you try to justify it, and it's much less useful than, say, a targeted AoE attack for grabbing aggro on brutes and tanks, so repurpose it into a power that does the same thing but in a way that doesn't make the game unfun to play.

 

1) City of Heroes came out in April 2004. Its not modern by any stretch of the imagination. It's been around LONGER then World of Warcraft (by 6 months) it just had a few years where it was put on ice, before it came back to the public eye. (like Captain America..)

 

2) You know, Sprint + Swift + Hurdle + Combat jumping aren't suppressed right? Also, +run/jump speed IO bonuses aren't suppressed either.

You can get pretty decent combat mobility with just the above powers, and 3 of them are inherent to every single AT. And Taunt (at least the tanker and brute versions) have a -range component to them.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Arbegla

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

Considering how heavily your travel powers are suppressed in combat, this makes moving from group to group incredibly frustrating. It also makes it difficult to control your character when travel suppression suddenly ends and you're sailing far away from your intended target. This is ancient, outdated game design and it is not fun.

I agree that movement suppression is, and always was, stupid, not fun and should be removed from the game entirely.

 

4 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

I should not be forced to take a pool power in order to do something that should be a basic function of melee classes, like it is in every other game. There is absolutely no reason to take taunt on scrappers and it sucks to use on brutes and tanks, so repurpose it into a power that does the same thing but in a way that doesn't make the game unfun to play.

Several melee sets already have a "gap closer." Shield has Shield Charge and Electric Melee has Lightning Rod. Ninjitsu has a speed buff in Kuji-in-Retsu, which can be used to quickly close with a victim target.

 

While I personally love the melee gap closers, I don't agree with the idea of removing Taunt from powersets nor with further homogenizing the powersets by giving them all a gap closer.

 

The only advantage that a Blaster has over a Tanker or Scrapper is that he doesn't have to chase targets. If you don't want to chase targets then either play a Blaster or take the pool power so that you don't have to.

[Solvernia]

16 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

While I personally love the melee gap closers, I don't agree with the idea of removing Taunt from powersets nor with further homogenizing the powersets by giving them all a gap closer.

 

I'm not arguing for the taunt effect to be removed, rather for it to be incorporated into a gap closer that is shared by all powersets. This would not change anything in terms of power choices or homogenization -- all powersets already have a taunt even though it's useless, why not make that taunt actually worth taking instead of a being waste of screen space?

 

Electrical Melee and Savage Melee are currently the only melee sets that have a gap closer, and they could honestly stay as is. Shield Defense is not a melee set. Ninjitsu is also not a melee set, and does not have a teleport. Speed buffs are still annoying to close the gap with.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Solvernia

[Solvernia]

13 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

1) City of Heroes came out in April 2004. Its not modern by any stretch of the imagination. It's been around LONGER then World of Warcraft (by 6 months) it just had a few years where it was put on ice, before it came back to the public eye. (like Captain America..)

 

2) You know, Sprint + Swift + Hurdle + Combat jumping aren't suppressed right? Also, +run/jump speed IO bonuses aren't suppressed either.

You can get pretty decent combat mobility with just the above powers, and 3 of them are inherent to every single AT. And Taunt (at least the tanker and brute versions) have a -range component to them.

 

Just because a game isn't modern doesn't mean you can't modernize it. Sprint+Swift+Hurdle+CJ only confers about 40mph run/jump, which is horribly slow in the distances involved in gameplay. It also requires taking Combat Jumping, which not every build wants to do.

 

Why should I be forced to take unnecessary pool powers to do something that should be a core feature of an AT, like it is in every other game that features melee-oriented classes?

Edited April 28, 2022 by Solvernia

[Arbegla]

2 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

 

I'm not arguing for the taunt effect to be removed, rather for it to be incorporated into a gap closer that is shared by all powersets. This would not change anything in terms of power choices or homogenization -- all powersets already have a taunt even though it's useless, why not make that taunt actually worth taking instead of a being waste of screen space?

 

Electrical Melee is currently the only melee set that has a gap closer, and it could honestly stay as is. Shield Defense is not a melee set. Ninjitsu is also not a melee set, and does not have a teleport. Speed buffs are still annoying to close the gap with.

 

Electrical Melee has Lightning Rod, that's true. But multiple Melee sets have a ranged power including, but not limited to:

 

Claws -> Focus

Super Strength -> Hurl
Stone Melee -> Hurl Boulder

Kinetic Melee -> Focused Blast
Savage Melee -> Savage leap (Its a lightning Rod clone)
Staff Fighting -> Serpents Reach
Spines -> Impale

Plus the aforementioned taunt/Confront

[Solvernia]

5 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

Electrical Melee has Lightning Rod, that's true. But multiple Melee sets have a ranged power including, but not limited to:

 

Claws -> Focus

Super Strength -> Hurl
Stone Melee -> Hurl Boulder

Kinetic Melee -> Focused Blast
Savage Melee -> Savage leap (Its a lightning Rod clone)
Staff Fighting -> Serpents Reach
Spines -> Impale

Plus the aforementioned taunt/Confront

The ranged power in these sets aren't super useful except either as a filler attack or to catch enemies running away from you. They serve no purpose when it comes to quickly and effectively closing the distance with a group of enemies so you can actually play the game. The ranged attack from epic pools also significantly outperforms them, which is honestly an issue in itself, but not the issue I'm discussing now.

 

The issue I'm discussing now is that melee ATs are frustrating to play because of their outdated design and lack of a gap closer (unless you waste a pool power pick on one), and it would be very simple to replace the useless taunt/confront with something that does the same thing but is much less annoying and unfun to use.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Solvernia

[Arbegla]

5 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

 

Just because a game isn't modern doesn't mean you can't modernize it. Sprint+Swift+Hurdle+CJ only confers about 40mph run/jump, which is horribly slow in the distances involved in gameplay. It also requires taking Combat Jumping, which not every build wants to do.

 

Why should I be forced to take unnecessary pool powers to do something that should be a core feature of an AT, like it is in every other game that features melee-oriented classes?

What you see as a core feature of an AT, most of us don't. And I think that is the overall problem here. I can't check mids to conform that Sprint/Swift/Hurdle give you 40mph max combat speed, but I'm pretty sure you can get higher numbers that that. Also, there are outside buffs, like Speed Boost, and Accelerated Metabolism that increase movement speed without suppressing it in combat.

And combat suppression only lasts a few seconds one way or the other, so if you want to run between groups with Super Speed or Super Jump you can easily do that, and its not hard to adjust to the speed differences with the right mouse control.

The point I'm trying to make is that you're solving a problem that doesn't seem to exist to the majority of the players of the game, and we're trying to tell you options to take that would solve this problem without the typical code rant of fundamentally changing the game.

[PeregrineFalcon]

8 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

I'm not arguing for the taunt effect to be removed, rather for it to be incorporated into a gap closer that is shared by all powersets.

I'm not talking about removing the taunt effect. I'm talking about changing the Taunt power from something that allows me to pull enemies to me instead of me going to them.

 

3 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

Why should I be forced to take unnecessary pool powers to do something that should be a core feature of an AT, like it is in every other game?

You are not forced to take any pool power. And I disagree with your assertion that it should be a core feature of any AT. And I don't care what every other game does. Stellaris lets me build clone factories on other worlds. Do you want to start a thread suggesting that the devs should add that feature to CoH too?

 

"Other games do it" is not a valid argument. In other games I have to reload constantly. Do you want them to add that to CoH too? Another game I play has an option called "en passant capture." Should the devs add that to CoH too?

[Arbegla]

1 minute ago, Solvernia said:

The ranged power in these sets aren't super useful except either as a filler attack or to catch enemies running away from you. The ranged attack from epic pools usually significantly outperforms them, which is honestly an issue in itself, but not the issue I'm discussing now.

 

The issue I'm discussing now is that melee ATs are frustrating to play because of their outdated design and lack of a gap closer (unless you waste a pool power pick on one), and it would be very simple to replace the useless taunt/confront with something that does the same thing but is much less annoying and unfun to use.

 

Again, I'm about 95% sure that Taunt/Confront gives a -range debuff, which forces mobs to come to you, as they can't use their ranged attacks (due to the -range debuff) so the powers aren't actually useless at all. There is also corner pulling, and other tactics you can use to get the mobs to come to you.

Also, you're playing a melee character, why aren't you running to the next group before the ranged characters get to them? Ranged characters are also limited by movement suppression, and very few powers are greater then 80ft range, so movement is definitely involved in City of Heroes combat.

[Solvernia]

Just now, PeregrineFalcon said:

I'm not talking about removing the taunt effect. I'm talking about changing the Taunt power from something that allows me to pull enemies to me instead of me going to them.

 

You are not forced to take any pool power. And I disagree with your assertion that it should be a core feature of any AT. And I don't care what every other game does. Stellaris lets me build clone factories on other worlds. Do you want to start a thread suggesting that the devs should add that feature to CoH too?

 

"Other games do it" is not a valid argument. In other games I have to reload constantly. Do you want them to add that to CoH too? Another game I play has an option called "en passant capture." Should the devs add that to CoH too?

 

"Other games do it" is a very valid argument. Why do you think other games do it? Because every other developer realizes it makes the class more fun to play.

 

Reloading would not make melee classes more fun to play. 'En passant capture' would not make melee classes more fun to play. What would make melee classes more fun to play is to give them the ability to close the distance with a main powerset power. It's not that hard to understand.