What is the relationship between Rogue Isles and The US?

[huang3721]

Rogue Isles often abet individuals wreaking havoc on US soil, and I find it strange that the US in City of Heroes rarely deploys her forces in retaliation. Heck, Dr. Aeon and his company can operate freely in the US, despite his association with the Arachnos. Why is the special treatment? Is there a special connection between the US and Rogue Isles? Does the lore mention the reason? Or, is it the time to apply MST3K Mantra ("It's just a show; I should just relax")?

[Techwright]

I'd been thinking the same thing last month.  My personal conclusion was that, at least at current game time, the resources are stretched too thin.  If I understand the lore correctly, the Ritki invasion reached much farther than Rhode Island.  We've got forces in the Shadow Shard, forces still fighting the Rikti, forces fighting Praetorians, and probably fighting several other groups as well.

 

A big problem is that a host of heroes were lost in the Rikti wars.  An all-out assault on the Rogues is probably going to require a large contingent of super types as vanguard to deal Arachnos, and they're largely tied up trying to hold back any number of powered groups.  Pull them for an assault, and its a field day for the Vahz, the Thorns, Malta, Banished Pantheon, etc.  Even if they do return, there's likely to be a host of casualties, reducing the effectiveness of the heroes in Paragon.  And don't forget that Rogue Island folks are attached to efforts to check both Ritki and Praetorians.  Reducing them is also reducing effective response towards those groups.

[El D]

I think Dr. Aeon is in the same situation that Countess Crey is in - as one of the canon megacorporations of the setting the resources and technology they provide is too inundated and widespread, on top of massive publicity manipulation campaigns, for them to really be challenged legally. After all, 'Dr. Aeon provides perpetual energy to the downtrodden of the Isles (Power Transfer System), as well as an abundant artificial food source (NutriPaste), and tons of employment opportunities (AeonCorp/Architect Entertainment)! All that villainous slander is nonsense spread by so-called heroes who are just jealous of his genius!' /s

 

Also yeah, the MST3K Mantra does tend to apply in situations like this ('AE is allowed to operate in the states because... the devs wanted a mission-making system' xD). I've started long digressions with my supergroup on similar questions, like wanting to know just where the Council/5th Column are getting all those custom uniforms. Does Icon/Facemaker do tailoring for fascists? Interdimensional textile factories in the Shadow Shard? Just reusing them via time travel shenanigans?

Edited June 1, 2022 by El D

[Snarky]

Some of the highest levels of the governments  around the world have been infiltrated by agents and operators of various factions going back hundreds of years.  You may find this hard to believe I know.  You would think those who struggle to obtain and keep power in the political world were doing so out of altruism and love of mankind.  I am so sorry to disillusion you.  They are some greedy schmucks easily bribed, corrupted, and blackmailed.  Now if you would like to accept an application to become a vigilante to do something about this situation that is understandable.  If, after being a vigilante for a while you become frustrated at the slow progress you are making we in the Rogue Isles would be ever so happy to show you how some diligent extremism can really accelerate change!

[Darmian]

Look, it depends on what the money wants in the end.  It's always what the money wants. And it doesn't want RI taken out.  Plus the political optics of it all.  I mean the US mounted a war effort in Korea/Vietnam/Grenada/Afghanistan/Iraq etc, but couldn't invade Cuba?  An island it HAD (and still has) A MILITARY INSTALLATION ON?

 

So, the Etoiles remain, partly due to the fact that their ruler and his lieutenants are incarnate level supers, and frankly someone somewhere is getting paid off.

[biostem]

3 hours ago, huang3721 said:

Rogue Isles often abet individuals wreaking havoc on US soil, and I find it strange that the US in City of Heroes rarely deploys her forces in retaliation. Heck, Dr. Aeon and his company can operate freely in the US, despite his association with the Arachnos. Why is the special treatment? Is there a special connection between the US and Rogue Isles? Does the lore mention the reason? Or, is it the time to apply MST3K Mantra ("It's just a show; I should just relax")?

The actual timeline of the game is a bit murky.  If you went through the Galaxy City tutorial, there's an alien invasion currently going on, and that's on top of things still being reconstructed after the previous Rikti one.  On top of all that, as @Snarky mentioned, there have been numerous factions infiltrating the various levels of government for many many years.  Frankly, I'm surprised that Paragon City even got as built up as it is.  I'm surprised the PPD aren't fully in Crey's pocket, or that there aren't more obvious Arachnos agents within Paragon's government...

[Darmian]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

The actual timeline of the game is a bit murky.  If you went through the Galaxy City tutorial, there's an alien invasion currently going on, and that's on top of things still being reconstructed after the previous Rikti one.  On top of all that, as @Snarky mentioned, there have been numerous factions infiltrating the various levels of government for many many years.  Frankly, I'm surprised that Paragon City even got as built up as it is.  I'm surprised the PPD aren't fully in Crey's pocket, or that there aren't more obvious Arachnos agents within Paragon's government...

All vote for Mr. A. Rachnid-Spydir for mayor!  Mayor Morales is old and tired, time for NEW BLOOD!

[huang3721]

Thanks for the insight. The retaliation didn't have to be military occupation or destruction of the Arachnos. Maybe a special military operation to destroy their shrimp supply? Any means to deny Rogue Isles from conducting subsequent atrocities. The US can punish Arachnos key figures, too. That's why (in my opinion) the absence of retaliation of any kind feels very weird. At least AE buildings should suffer some harassment.

 

I still enjoy the show, though. Blowing up cars and whatnots in a mayhem mission can be cathartic.

[biostem]

1 hour ago, huang3721 said:

Thanks for the insight. The retaliation didn't have to be military occupation or destruction of the Arachnos. Maybe a special military operation to destroy their shrimp supply? Any means to deny Rogue Isles from conducting subsequent atrocities. The US can punish Arachnos key figures, too. That's why (in my opinion) the absence of retaliation of any kind feels very weird. At least AE buildings should suffer some harassment.

I mean, there are Freedom Corps soldiers operating right in the open in the Rogue Isles already.  I believe they are technically a sovereign nation, so it doesn't surprise me that the US wouldn't operate there quite so conspicuously, (though I'm sure they have vessels patrol just outside their coastal waters).  I would think that groups like the Family run contraband and personnel into the US for Arachnos and to and from the Rogue Isles for the US gov't quite frequently.  The "retaliation" you speak of is already going on - just not right out in the open.  I mean, US army soldiers would get annihilated against Arachnos troops, which is probably why you instead see Longbow, Wyvern, and so on...

[SaintD]

The Rikti War was global, and would have gone worse for everyone outside of Paragon City where damn near all the heroes are. Human conventional military forces seem to have been almost useless against the Rikti.

 

The entire setting is barely more than post-apocalyptic, and is still being held together by spit and string as Earth is being pounded just endlessly by superpowered threats all over.

 

Fast forward a couple decades to actually recover, and an utterly unstoppable conventional military invasion of the Rogue Isles is straight up inevitable.

[Snarky]

14 hours ago, SaintD said:

The Rikti War was global, and would have gone worse for everyone outside of Paragon City where damn near all the heroes are. Human conventional military forces seem to have been almost useless against the Rikti.

 

The entire setting is barely more than post-apocalyptic, and is still being held together by spit and string as Earth is being pounded just endlessly by superpowered threats all over.

 

Fast forward a couple decades to actually recover, and an utterly unstoppable conventional military invasion of the Rogue Isles is straight up inevitable.

Probably not.

 

You could Nuke the Rogue Isles.  yes.  Somewhat easily.  But no one in their right mind wants to light that candle.  Not even for a small tactical strike.  Not from my reading of the global military tea leaves.  Because as soon as one person does it.....someone else feels like they could just eliminate a pesky small problem.  (Won't spread, we promise!)

 

You could carpet bomb the rogue Isles with Planes, rockets and missiles.  This would do tremendous damage.  But it would not do it quick enough to forestall 1) counter attacks 2) people/resources escaping 3) the cost of this in depletion of assets will not be cheap.  The Rogue Isles will be beaten, but they will take some mean old shots while they fall

 

You could invade the Rogue Isles with overwhelming conventional forces.  Now, a significant percentage of your invading force will be turned into zombie super soldiers attacking you back, others implanted with Nictus, others possessed by Oranbegans, but sure you can invade.  This is a laughably bad idea that will get worse if not done extremely fast and extremely complete.  Like, the entire national military walking ashore in lockstep.  Because the Rogue Isles does not fight fair.  Or sanely.  Or with anything approaching an attitude of they give a crap.  That would be fun to watch.  Seriously.  

 

You could try to make a political deal with the Rogue Isles and compartmentalize their chaos while trying to profit and extract some wins, personally, professionally, and possibly nationally.  I think this is where most national leadership currently stands.  Thats a minefield of its own type.

 

But an unstoppable conventional invasion?  What do you tell the parents of the division that got gated into the shadow shard?  We'll find your boys?  How about the battalion lost at the thorn tree in nerva.  And I dont mean killed.  They went into the  tunnels and no one has seen them since.  

[The Larker]

Probably because its a video game and the devs never thought any further than that.

Although, having a better idea of how things work would be a fascinating read.

[PeregrineFalcon]

I wonder how many "Longbow" are TAD, or just former, U.S. Military personnel.

 

You have to admit, it'd be a great way to field test a lot of high-tech equipment for the U.S. Military without officially involving the U.S.

[SaintD]

On 6/2/2022 at 6:25 AM, Snarky said:

Probably not.

 

You could Nuke the Rogue Isles.  yes.  Somewhat easily.  But no one in their right mind wants to light that candle.  Not even for a small tactical strike.  Not from my reading of the global military tea leaves.  Because as soon as one person does it.....someone else feels like they could just eliminate a pesky small problem.  (Won't spread, we promise!)

 

You could carpet bomb the rogue Isles with Planes, rockets and missiles.  This would do tremendous damage.  But it would not do it quick enough to forestall 1) counter attacks 2) people/resources escaping 3) the cost of this in depletion of assets will not be cheap.  The Rogue Isles will be beaten, but they will take some mean old shots while they fall

 

You could invade the Rogue Isles with overwhelming conventional forces.  Now, a significant percentage of your invading force will be turned into zombie super soldiers attacking you back, others implanted with Nictus, others possessed by Oranbegans, but sure you can invade.  This is a laughably bad idea that will get worse if not done extremely fast and extremely complete.  Like, the entire national military walking ashore in lockstep.  Because the Rogue Isles does not fight fair.  Or sanely.  Or with anything approaching an attitude of they give a crap.  That would be fun to watch.  Seriously.  

 

You could try to make a political deal with the Rogue Isles and compartmentalize their chaos while trying to profit and extract some wins, personally, professionally, and possibly nationally.  I think this is where most national leadership currently stands.  Thats a minefield of its own type.

 

But an unstoppable conventional invasion?  What do you tell the parents of the division that got gated into the shadow shard?  We'll find your boys?  How about the battalion lost at the thorn tree in nerva.  And I dont mean killed.  They went into the  tunnels and no one has seen them since.  

 

Yeah....no. Longbow alone are able to make advances into the Rogue Isles, with one quest chain where they're mind controlling villains even resulting in an all-out battle mission built more for spectacle than actual gameplay as you fight their army.

 

The resource difference between Arachnos and actual large nation states, let alone an organisation like NATO that eould turn its baleful gaze towards them if it had any time to recover, is beyond absurd.

 

'Conventional military' wielded by these nations ended up looking like Vanguard. The Paragon Police Department is terrifying. Private paramilitaries, Longbow, Wyvern, Legacy Chain, all constitute huge threats to Arachnos.

 

The Rogue Isles thrives only because of the chaotic, overbearingly threatening time in which CoX takes places. It's what a bandit kingdom looks like in a messed up superhero setting, and constantly looks for crazy superweapon ways to rule the world because it categorically cannot take on the world any other way.

[Snarky]

31 minutes ago, SaintD said:

 

Yeah....no. Longbow alone are able to make advances into the Rogue Isles, with one quest chain where they're mind controlling villains even resulting in an all-out battle mission built more for spectacle than actual gameplay as you fight their army.

 

The resource difference between Arachnos and actual large nation states, let alone an organisation like NATO that eould turn its baleful gaze towards them if it had any time to recover, is beyond absurd.

 

'Conventional military' wielded by these nations ended up looking like Vanguard. The Paragon Police Department is terrifying. Private paramilitaries, Longbow, Wyvern, Legacy Chain, all constitute huge threats to Arachnos.

 

The Rogue Isles thrives only because of the chaotic, overbearingly threatening time in which CoX takes places. It's what a bandit kingdom looks like in a messed up superhero setting, and constantly looks for crazy superweapon ways to rule the world because it categorically cannot take on the world any other way.

I agree mostly completely.  I still stand by my statements.  Using any nukes is a geopolitical no no.  Conventional Bombing the Rogue isles would be both ineffective and expensive. Which leaves conventional ground forces Which is expensive and would be a PR nightmare after the first few (of many) horrifying plot twists 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Snarky

[Clave Dark 5]

This is getting rather political, but: Eh, the US has pretty well lived enough with and around other pretty bad states before, what's one more, even if it is nearby and occasionally doing bad stuff to us?  Heck, we might even be able to come to an understanding with them and try and get something out of the deal.

[huang3721]

I may have missed details about Federal Government; I've never lived in one.

So, my following argument could be wrong.

 

I saw this video about the US:

 

Maybe Rogue Isles were unincorporated territories before the coup d'etat?

 

Thus, the US views Rogue Islanders as its citizens. This means escalating the conflict will increase the death toll of US citizens. May result in a civil war, too (even more deaths). The result: Arachnos can do anything they want, as long as they are not directly antagonizing the US. 

 

Plus, as Snarky et al. have pointed out above, adding a conflict with Rogue Isles is not feasible. 

[Cancrusher]

Yeah, I think the US is fighting too many wars on too many fronts to mount an invasion of the Rogue Isles.  For now, they've got to let Longbow keep them distracted and occupied while they lock down their other problems that they're dealing with.  Once the war with the Rikti is won, then perhaps they could turn their full attention to Etoile.

 

It's important to keep in mind, though, that many nations in this alternate Earth may have super powered rulers and/or defenders.  This makes the US less of a superpower than it is in the real world.  Even if the Rogue Isles were their only problem, it would not be a simple one-sided struggle.  Recluse has a huge army, high-tech weaponry, and a large cadre of powerful, super-powered beings at his disposal.  An all out war would be devastating to both sides.

[Techwright]

38 minutes ago, Cancrusher said:

Yeah, I think the US is fighting too many wars on too many fronts to mount an invasion of the Rogue Isles. 

 

And not just the Prime Universe US.  Other countries would be in the same boat.  Several of the groups we fight in Paragon have global designs.  Paragon City is the major nexus of conflict, though, which is probably why foreign help, like Hero One came to Rhode Island. Too many conflicts would also explain why allied nations don't clear out the Rogues, or at least provide enough defensive aid within the US to allow the Prime Americans to go clear out a global threat.

 

It would be interesting if future stories and missions addressed some of this.  Made us aware of what's happening outside the Walls and Islands.

[Snarky]

7 minutes ago, Techwright said:

And not just the Prime Universe US.  Other countries would be in the same boat.  Several of the groups we fight in Paragon have global designs.  Paragon City is the major nexus of conflict, though, which is probably why foreign help, like Hero One came to Rhode Island. Too many conflicts would also explain why allied nations don't clear out the Rogues, or at least provide enough defensive aid within the US to allow the Prime Americans to go clear out a global threat.

 

It would be interesting if future stories and missions addressed some of this.  Made us aware of what's happening outside the Walls and Islands.

 

someone with some AE skill needs to do an armed invasion scenario.  to me this would look like a series of open AE maps with hordes of "useless" soldiers and random explosions (off scene tanks/artillery/missiles support)  

 

But even in the destroyed sections of Paragon city the enemy groups that swoop in are insanely powerful compared to regular military.  Do you really want to try to hold territory the Freakshow are moving into, looking for parts to bolt onto their bodies?

[Clave Dark 5]

Meanwhile, everyone still laughs at the Council as they happily mow down their amassed minions in the warehouses across the world.  😃

[Ringo]

I'd have to go back and check the lore, but I'm fairly certain the Rogue Isles operate on the same basis that our world's Russia has for the last 30 years - they are a sovereign nation with nukes.  Mutually Assured Destruction means that if anybody *really* has a go at the Isles and Arachnos, then we've hit Armageddon, full stop.

 

Letting them bust up Paragon City is (in theory) a small price to pay for freedom from nuclear annihilation

[Zepp]

Rogue Isles are Mar-a-Lago?

[huang3721]

2 hours ago, Ringo said:

I'd have to go back and check the lore

Assuming the lore is now in the public domain, could you share it?

 

I saw someone post a screenshot of the lore (pdf) about another subject, but I forget who or where it was.

 

Thanks.

[Andreah]

It's a nasty, difficult, near impossible task to rationalize this comic-book setting. Would even nukes do much to the Isles other than increase the number of super powered mutants there bearing a grudge? Assuming there wasn't one of the any number of comic-book level protections in place to just make them all duds.

 

If you go down this route far, you might feel tempted to look at the rest of the timeline we usually just assume was the same. I really doubt much else could be the same. The deep history of this world is different than our, the geography is different, the laws of science, technology and the nature of the universe itself are different. There's no reason to believe anyone from our world is even remotely present in theirs. 

 

I don't think there's even a good reason for the game world to share much of our popular culture. Star trek, star wars, etc., included. Maybe Gene and George were entirely different people-- conceived with different rolls of the genetic dice and raised in cultural landscapes different than in our history. Would pulp sci-fi have existed from the 30's onward? Why? There's real sci-fi stuff going on all around them. it might be more serious literature in this other world. Would comic books exist? Perhaps not. Why make comic strips about what's going on objectively around you? They'd be political cartoons on the opinion pages, making fun of some heroes and lauding others. I don't even believe any of our real world political figures in the last century would have been certain to have been prominent in the game world.

 

At some point, I just say to myself, don't peer too deep, don't pull too hard on the curtains, be prepared to accept the hand waving.