Removing shared XP range limit outside

[Neoplasm]

Back on live a change was implemented to limit the range where XP was shared between team mates outside mission instances. The reason given was that players not working closely together were not helping each other towards a common goal, and it was also meant to encourage players to do missions instead of street hunting. In todays game, in a community ran server, I don't think these reasons are as pertinent as they might have been back then.

In the current situation it's hard to street hunt together, as you have to actively make sure you are all going the same way to not miss out on XP or drops. I feel a group heroes clearing a neighbourhood, some going left, some going right, some going high and some going low, would be a welcome addition to the ways of working as a team.

Edit: Increasing shared xp range?

Edited June 21, 2022 by Neoplasm

[Greycat]

*parks lowbies by a hospital in DA where there are no mobs*

"54 Incarnate street farm, 3 spots left!"

 

If things like mission/TF "Defeat X enemies " missions were hampered by how close your teammates were, I'd probably be more inclined towards the idea. But it just sounds like it'd end up encouraging nonparticipation.

[Menelruin]

21 minutes ago, Greycat said:

*parks lowbies by a hospital in DA where there are no mobs*

"54 Incarnate street farm, 3 spots left!"

 

If things like mission/TF "Defeat X enemies " missions were hampered by how close your teammates were, I'd probably be more inclined towards the idea. But it just sounds like it'd end up encouraging nonparticipation.

Maybe set it on a timer based on how recently you WERE within range to earn it?  That way if you have two teams across town with a Defender and some DPS each mowing things down, then they're gonna keep refreshing that timer and be able to keep sharing xp....but if someone is out of the current "earning range" for too long, then they're dropped from the long-distance shared xp.

[Psyonico]

I'm going to agree with Greycat, this kind of looks like a solution looking for a problem.

[Neoplasm]

I think there are easier ways to level without participating, like sitting, which would still be more popular among people who like that kind of thing. The xp outside is still worse than inside missions.

[kelika2]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

*parks lowbies by a door in atlas where there are mostly no mobs*

"54 Incarnate fire farm, 3 spots left!"

 

If things like mission/TF "Defeat X enemies " missions were hampered by how close your teammates were, I'd probably be more inclined towards the idea. But it just sounds like it'd end up encouraging nonparticipation.

its like that now.  in the before times all 8 people were encouraged to go off and kill on their own.  we didnt have difficulty adjustment back then and 8 people fighting their own at a nice pace was better than sticking together due to the volume defeated

[biostem]

59 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

its like that now.  in the before times all 8 people were encouraged to go off and kill on their own.  we didnt have difficulty adjustment back then and 8 people fighting their own at a nice pace was better than sticking together due to the volume defeated

I remember calls for people to "bridge" the lowbies, so they'd be just at that -5 threshold of the one doing all the killing...

[Bill Z Bubba]

There was an exploit a while back that allowed folks to get AE mission complete bonuses no matter where they were, what zone they were in, etc. We really don't need more problems like that.

 

So... yea... no.

[srmalloy]

33 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

There was an exploit a while back that allowed folks to get AE mission complete bonuses no matter where they were, what zone they were in, etc. We really don't need more problems like that.

Or the brief bug back on Live with mission glowies awarding XP that awarded XP to team members even if they weren't in the mission and were not SK'd (back before SK was automatic), which allowed newb characters fresh to the game to get tens of thousands of XP per glowie.

Edited June 22, 2022 by srmalloy

[Neoplasm]

The current distance for xp sharing is by my testing 100 yards. In a game without super powers that could be a long range, but in CoH you can run that distance in a matter of seconds. I concede that instead of removing the distance limit it would be less troublesome to just increase the distance. Perhaps 200 yards, so you can fight on different sides of the same skyscraper and still share xp.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Neoplasm
spelling

[Ukase]

It's a bit odd to read of a suggestion, and then following that, read how a random player might take advantage of the change, if implemented. 
Is this why we can't have nice things?  
 

[biostem]

Just now, Ukase said:

It's a bit odd to read of a suggestion, and then following that, read how a random player might take advantage of the change, if implemented. 
Is this why we can't have nice things?  

Frankly, when you're talking about gameplay mechanic changes, you need to approach it from the perspective of how such a change could be exploited;  Expect the best, but prepare for the worst, and all that...

[Rudra]

Honestly, if I'm with others and we're just street sweeping for xp, we're always together. However, if we're looking for specific mobs, like Family bosses for the badge, then we're often as far apart as we can manage to blanket the area in our search. In the first approach, we're leveling together. In the second, we don't care about the xp and are just racking up defeat counts. So I really don't see a need for the limit to be changed, let alone dropped. However, I can still agree with a change to the radius for when teams start to scatter chasing runners or hitting non-adjacent groups. Just not with the limit being removed in its entirety.

[Neoplasm]

If street sweeping was attractive in it's current state I would agree, there might be no change needed, but it's not. No one is looking for a patrol, no one is suggesting street sweeping. It's rare that part of the team would street sweep while waiting for the team to form up on a mission door, and even if they do they are penalized for being in a team, as part of the xp just disappears into thin air when they wander too far from the door to find fresh spawns.

People are only hunting if they are solo, don't care about xp or don't know better.

[Rudra]

Missions give mission rewards at the end of the mission. And you still get the xp and inf' from every mob you defeat in the mission. And you can set the mission to give max number of targets to defeat.

 

Contrast that to street sweeping. There is no mission reward because you aren't doing a mission. (I am not counting the street sweeping missions contacts give since those actually give mission completion rewards and this thread seems to be about just street sweeping in general.) You can't set the spawns to max targets because it is a zone. (Go to a hazard zone if you want to street sweep large numbers of targets per group.)

 

So when it comes to leveling, missions give much better rewards, and thus have more incentive, than just street sweeping. So street sweeping not being attractive for leveling has nothing to do with a shared xp range limit.

 

(And if your team is street sweeping for xp, you will typically clear spawns faster together than alone anyway. If you want to AFK level, join a farm.)

[UltraAlt]

On 6/21/2022 at 10:16 AM, Neoplasm said:

In the current situation it's hard to street hunt together, as you have to actively make sure you are all going the same way to not miss out on XP or drops

 

I don't see why it is hard to fight the same mob as your teammates.

 

On 6/21/2022 at 10:16 AM, Neoplasm said:

I feel a group heroes clearing a neighbourhood, some going left, some going right, some going high and some going low, would be a welcome addition to the ways of working as a team.

 

Or maybe that's being on the same team and not teaming up with each other.

 

Most of time in comics heroes are near the other heroes they are teaming up with and not someplace else.

 

Well, maybe this last one is a bad example.....

[srmalloy]

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

(I am not counting the street sweeping missions contacts give since those actually give mission completion rewards and this thread seems to be about just street sweeping in general.)

Sometimes you get a mission completion reward; a lot of times, all I see is "you have defeated enough X" or "on one of the defeated X, you found a note" or something similar, with no reward.

[Neoplasm]

To paint a picture, in this screenshot I am out of shared xp range, the marker says 110 yards, and my team who has supported me is at the mission door. If I would now defeat an enemy I would get 1/8 of the xp, the Howler Wolf would probably get none, and the rest of the xp would be lost to the Void. I don't know how salvage or recipe drops behave in this scenario, do I have a one in 8 chance for a salvage roll or am I the only one rolling for a drop?

Am I really unreasonably far to my team in the picture? If I was catching a runner at this distance in a mission, or running to a fresh spawn in a mission to nuke them, I don't think you would argue that I wasn't close enough to share xp with my team mates, and I don't think you would argue that the whole team should move closely together. On an outside hunt mission, for example the leader has set mission to  "Defeat 20 Tsoo in IP", a team would naturally spread looking for Tsoo in different places, and consequently be out of xp sharing range.

[UltraAlt]

30 minutes ago, Neoplasm said:

Am I really unreasonably far to my team in the picture?

 

You are far enough away that you can not engage of any thing that they are fighting nor risk of taking damage from any mob that they are currently engaging.

 

I don't think you should be able to park your level 1 in a safe place in Peregrine Island so that you can be power-leveled by a team of 50's (or your alternate account for that matter) that are street sweeping.

 

32 minutes ago, Neoplasm said:

I don't think you would argue that I wasn't close enough to share xp with my team mates

 

The game says that it is close enough.

But I have to go to the above.

I don't like doorsitters. I kick them from the team. If they need to go eat breakfast or something, they can do that standing outside of the mission.

 

The point of the game isn't to be power-leveled. It's to actually play the game.

There is no need to argue the fact. I know full well that some players don't think they are actually playing until the are in the end-game aka level 50, because we all know that most of the game content is below level 50 (if not in the AE at this point)

[Neoplasm]

I have a Forcefields bubble on me from my team mate, he is supporting me in that way. You might not be able to make it out from the picture, but there are defeated outcasts halfway between me and my team. Maybe they were defeated collectively by the team and then we turned around and facing different directions we moved 55 yards.

It's weird how street sweeping is in this thread seen as a tool for power leveling or an extension of doorsitting. If someone wants to get power leveled to 50, or sit AFK soaking up xp, they have all the tools they need in the game already. If someone could solo monsters at Monster Island while other people were waiting safely at a hospital it would still be terrible xp and those people should go on a farm instead, like normal people.

There are so many intresting zones where you never see people as a team.

Incomplete list of places where people street sweep:
Atlas Park
Hollows
Peregrine Island

Incomplete List of places where people could street sweep as a team:
Faultline
Founders' Falls
Independence Port

Skyway City
Steel Canyon
Talos Island

Boomtown
Crey's Folly

Perez Park
Striga Isle
Shadow Shards

Dark Astoria

Eden
Rikti War Zone
Terra Volta

I recommend street sweeping in Striga Isle for everyone, it's a well crafted zone for walking.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Neoplasm

[arcane]

Thinking on this further I think the OP makes a compelling argument for expanding 100 yds to 150 or 200 but not more 🙂 

 

Street sweeping can be very lucrative. It’s what I do most often if I want to work on veteran levels solo without loading up a farmer. Definitely not definitively worse xp than missions in all cases - often much better.
 

I’m fine with the idea that you shouldn’t lose xp too quickly if you fall behind by one mob for a minute. I do not think that translates to removing the cap entirely and getting xp from anywhere - no thanks to that.

Edited June 23, 2022 by arcane

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, Neoplasm said:

To paint a picture, in this screenshot I am out of shared xp range, the marker says 110 yards, and my team who has supported me is at the mission door. If I would now defeat an enemy I would get 1/8 of the xp, the Howler Wolf would probably get none, and the rest of the xp would be lost to the Void. I don't know how salvage or recipe drops behave in this scenario, do I have a one in 8 chance for a salvage roll or am I the only one rolling for a drop?

The howler wolf will never get any xp. No MM pets are capable of getting xp. No NPCs are capable of getting xp. Your pet levels when your MM levels, though you will still either need to zone or re-summon for your pet to use that new level. Just for your awareness.

 

Increasing the radius limit to not more than 200 would be fine in my book. Removing the radius limit is a big "No" from me though. If people want to team and get the benefits of being on the team, then they need to function as a team. If everyone scatters to hell and beyond from each other, then you aren't a team. You're a bunch of individuals running around and doing whatever.

 

In comics, a good example would be the Justice League. They are a team. When they scatter to do different tasks, such as search different areas, they are experiencing different events and earning different rewards. So while Batman is searching through area A and Superman is searching Area B while Wonder Woman searches Area C, none of them are facing the same dangers or difficulties as the others. They are not gaining anything as a team, and anything any of them gains is lost to the others. Even information. That is why they have to then tell the others what they found or turned up. And some of the information is still lost as the individual informing the others omits parts (s)he thinks is not relevant to the others. This despite the fact they share communications and can call each other to their sides if something happens or turns up. Do you think Superman learned anything in area B from Wonder Woman thrashing some mooks in area C even though they are technically working together? Or is it just a "Okay, she's out there and Bats is over there instead, and they will call me if they need anything"?

 

The shared xp radius limit is a good reflection of that. For the members of the team to gain the same benefits, they need to be in a position where they can actively support each other. Could the radius stand to be expanded a little? Sure. Does it make any sense for it to go away? Absolutely not.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add missing punctuation and remove extra letter.

[Neoplasm]

I think you are trying to justify the current mechanic on a level of realism that no one wants to see elsewhere in the game. You could argue that a team on an instanced outside map shouldn't share xp when they have not direclty contributed damage or buffs, people on different floors of an office building shouldn't get a share of each others drops. Being a team is more than just punching the same guys. It's about having each others back, supporting each others emotionally, communicating and splitting into more efficient groupings when needed. People learn from their teams mistakes, too. Maybe there is a debrief later.

In the Avenger movies there are plenty of situations where heroes are working as a team even if they are further away from each other. I think they are learning of and from each other the whole time, if not right away, maybe later when talking about it over drinks.

City of Heroes Trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eHB9zxtet4

City of Villains Trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l75R5PHjIAY

Avengers New York Battle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZC9AhvuUko

Civil War Airport Fight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOKoyr_DBag
 

Anyway, my main argument is that 100 yards is very restrictive and not getting xp and drops from each other even when you feel you are together doesn't feel good. I guess I could make another post some time later asking for a 300 yard limit instead. Thank you all for your input.

[Rudra]

I don't  need to justify the current system. It already makes sense. When the team is on a mission map, they are at the same location working on the same objective(s). When the team is on the zone map, they can be literally miles apart working on completely unrelated things to each other.

 

To use your example, part of the team sat on their hands at the door waiting for the rest of the team. Part of the team was not even present to be considered. And you were off taking down random thugs. Your team wasn't being a team. Some of them were just sitting there waiting. They were at least waiting instead of rushing in and clearing the mission before the others could get there. So they have my thanks for that, but they weren't helping you with what you were doing even peripherally. You weren't being a part of the team because you were running off doing off-mission tasks. You were trying to be productive while you waited, and my kudos to you for that, but you were off doing your own thing with the impromptu street sweep. So when you move far enough away, congrats! Now the xp from your defeats should be all yours! (I don't team in a zone and separate while looking for xp, so I don't know if you get full xp for defeats if you are beyond sharing range, but it would make sense since you are beyond sharing range.)

 

What justification does the limit need? It makes sense. Yes, ask for the radius to be increased. That will likely find more support. Asking for it to go away? There is already a much better way for door sitters to get xp while door sitting. It gives more consistent xp than street sweeping seeing as how farmers typically farm all level 54 mobs. It gives faster xp because there is no need to race along roads looking for the next random spawn. And if the map is the asteroid map, there aren't even any halls or tunnels or hidden spawns in out of the way tiny rooms to complicate the rapid accumulation of xp.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to correct inconsistent tense.

[Neoplasm]

There's a bug with the waypoint marker that makes things seem further away than they are. It might affect the share range feature too.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Neoplasm