Give Doms and Trollers pets at a lower level, say 12 or so

[kelika2]

I dont want to get super into specifics of every set, but just move around powers and have all AoE holds at level 32 and pets at 12 or 18, halve the recharge of aoe holds to compensate being a level 32 power.  just swap mass confuse for mind trollers with total domination

 

Playing a low level dom or troller is mind numbing.  And please take into consideration on how fast things die in this game vs how often you do use your aoe hold vs how long the hold duration gets used

[TheZag]

Im sure someone will be along shortly to say they use the AoE holds at low levels.

 

You did recognize that the AoE hold would need a buff if moved to 32 but you didnt mention the nerf that the pets would need if they are available earlier.

 

This one is a no for me.  The lvl 32 power kinda is the goal.  The best/strongest power in a set.  For a dominator or controller its the point that the character has mastered their ability to the point that they can summon a pet.  Looking forward to an AoE hold,  which i agree is usually wasted,  isnt how i would want to progress a controller or dominator.  

[arcane]

Nah

[kelika2]

1 hour ago, TheZag said:

You did recognize that the AoE hold would need a buff if moved to 32 but you didnt mention the nerf that the pets would need if they are available earlier.

According to power info windows pets have the numbers to scale down below 32(27)

And not being able to control them wont be as game breaking as you think it would in large groups

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, kelika2 said:

I dont want to get super into specifics of every set, but just move around powers and have all AoE holds at level 32 and pets at 12 or 18, halve the recharge of aoe holds to compensate being a level 32 power.  just swap mass confuse for mind trollers with total domination

 

Playing a low level dom or troller is mind numbing.  And please take into consideration on how fast things die in this game vs how often you do use your aoe hold vs how long the hold duration gets used

 

1 hour ago, kelika2 said:

According to power info windows pets have the numbers to scale down below 32(27)

And not being able to control them wont be as game breaking as you think it would in large groups

So... you want the powers you don't like to be last so you can get the powers you want earlier... and your rationalization is that being in a large group mitigates getting uncontrolled pets earlier....

 

I agree that playing low level controllers and dominators is typically boring. There are some power sets that are fun immediately at level 1, but most bore me to tears.

 

By your logic, considering how fast things die in the game compared to how often AoE holds are used, you should just take away all the mezzes from controllers and dominators. In large groups, which is the standard you are citing, there is no point to using any mezzes because the team eats the mobs before your mezzes have any chance to be effective. Until you face off against the AV or GM. Then having your ST hold and AoE hold to stack on him and lock him down becomes a lot more interesting to the team.

 

Now look at smaller teams and solo players. Those AoE holds and other mezzes start becoming more important the smaller the group gets without having to wait for the AV or GM to make an appearance. The ability to lock down an entire group of enemies so your DPS friends have time to take the groups down becomes more desirable. And when solo, AoE holds keep the controller or dominator alive when dealing with multiple groups, like when ambushes trigger. Or if your now lower level available  uncontrolled pet(s) run off and grab the next few spawns because you can't stop them from doing so.

 

You can't just look at controllers and dominators and say AoE holds (or other mezzes) are a waste at their levels and should be pushed back to a higher level. Not when you consider controllers and dominators across the full range of play from solo to full team. Especially since the more powerful or effective powers are supposed to be the higher level powers.

 

So as much as I like pet powers, I disagree with this suggestion. It makes no sense.

[biostem]

To some extent, it's a matter of "delay of gratification" - While I agree that sets should be viable at all levels, overall, there is also something to be said about having the patience to slog through some less fun power picks until you get to the good stuff...

[PainX]

as a domi i strictly disagree pets arent good for anything past maybe umbra beast and singy mostly singy who is the only real tier 9 in the game he can actualy survive abit on his own pets are set mules on domi they are built to be buffed and it shows rather not have more lowbie filler powers usualy allready start with one

[arcane]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

To some extent, it's a matter of "delay of gratification" - While I agree that sets should be viable at all levels, overall, there is also something to be said about having the patience to slog through some less fun power picks until you get to the good stuff...

I agree here. We could argue about which powers “would be nice to have” at certain levels and we’d probably wind up with the single target immobilizes being T9 powers because everyone can stand to hold off on those. BUT…. That would be… stupid..

[biostem]

Maybe pets should remain where they are, but should receive some sort of buff/benefit when a dominator has domination active...

Edited June 27, 2022 by biostem

[PainX]

12 minutes ago, biostem said:

Maybe pets should remain where they are, but should receive some sort of buff/benefit when a dominator has domination active...

dont think it will work as a general buff because what fixes imps gremlins and flytrap would make singy bonkers and pull even more ahead of the curve

 

[Sovera]

Low level pets definitely. Heck, at level 1. A Controller would get the damage boost they sorely need if deciding to play solo and their CCing/healing/buffing goes into keeping the pets alive. Even new players would get the idea they can then extend that if playing in a team, and vice versa, that the pets are their team if playing solo.

 

But it is never going to happen, just look at the convoluted rationalizations in this thread alone.

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, Sovera said:

But it is never going to happen, just look at the convoluted rationalizations in this thread alone.

One person's "convoluted" is another person's "well reasoned"...

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, PainX said:

dont think it will work as a general buff because what fixes imps gremlins and flytrap would make singy bonkers and pull even more ahead of the curve

 

Individual powers can be buffed or nerfed. So if some pets are less than they should be, they can be buffed without affecting the other pets.

 

32 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Low level pets definitely. Heck, at level 1. A Controller would get the damage boost they sorely need if deciding to play solo and their CCing/healing/buffing goes into keeping the pets alive. Even new players would get the idea they can then extend that if playing in a team, and vice versa, that the pets are their team if playing solo.

 

But it is never going to happen, just look at the convoluted rationalizations in this thread alone.

If you want pets at level 1, play a mastermind. That is their raison d'etre. Edit: Masterminds start with pets. Masterminds buff/heal their pets. Controllers and dominators don't need to become masterminds.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Rudra

[Sovera]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Individual powers can be buffed or nerfed. So if some pets are less than they should be, they can be buffed without affecting the other pets.

 

If you want pets at level 1, play a mastermind. That is their raison d'etre. Edit: Masterminds start with pets. Masterminds buff/heal their pets. Controllers and dominators don't need to become masterminds.

 

MMs are a buff/damage class. Controllers are a CC/buff class. Someone who wants to play a CC class should not need to be dragging their bare feet over broken glass because their damage is pitiful.

 

But not going to bother with this conversation any further. If a dev wants to make it happen it will despite the naysaying of players, and if a dev does not want to instate it then it will not be despite ayesaying. All these back and forths ultimately have no purpose other than recreation since devs are the ones with the vote on these suggestions.

[biostem]

14 minutes ago, Sovera said:

MMs are a buff/damage class. Controllers are a CC/buff class.

So... take away controller/dom pets, then?

 

15 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Someone who wants to play a CC class should not need to be dragging their bare feet over broken glass because their damage is pitiful.

That has not been my experience playing controllers in general.  *Some* sets could use a buff/tweak, but containment does wonders for controllers.  Dominators, granted with some work, can be monstrously powerful.

[Rudra]

50 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

MMs are a buff/damage class. Controllers are a CC/buff class. Someone who wants to play a CC class should not need to be dragging their bare feet over broken glass because their damage is pitiful.

 

But not going to bother with this conversation any further. If a dev wants to make it happen it will despite the naysaying of players, and if a dev does not want to instate it then it will not be despite ayesaying. All these back and forths ultimately have no purpose other than recreation since devs are the ones with the vote on these suggestions.

The OP cites teams and their damage as a reason to not bother with AoE holds. Sorry, I mean, move them to later where they are not likely to be needed by the team. All for the sake of getting pets earlier. If you are on a team and the experience with your controller is dragging your bare feet over broken glass because the CC/buff class of controller does pitiful damage compared to the damage classes? Then I can't help you. Except to tell you to maybe try dominators since they get a damage focused secondary. Even with some corruptor sets, the corruptor is stuck doing debuff/buff/heal duty rather than doing their own damage while on a team.

 

Now when solo, controllers can actually make use of Containment. Which doubles their damage against mezzed foes. Which was specifically added to shore up the controller's damage. If that is not enough? There are the power pool attacks to supplement the CC/buff character's damage output. I took my ice controller to 50 solo without ever teaming once. It was the first time I ever actually enjoyed playing a controller. And it was because I took power pools to supplement the build. With my class primary powers, I could lock down even a (Edit: elite) boss spawn. And I could do good damage with my two pool power attacks. And pretty much nothing touched my controller who was having a field day smashing everything once I got my cycle going.

 

Supplementing your AT's powers is why the power pools exist. To shore up a character's weak points and add powers that don't fit in the AT's primary/secondary pool. Especially as has been stated in other threads, taking pool powers is mandatory for all characters. And controllers have the least need for the Holy Quartet of power pools with their ability to lock everything down.

 

Your argument fails to hold up.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Rudra

[kelika2]

6 hours ago, Rudra said:

blahblahblah

I am not reading all of that and the other post, please condense

[kelika2]

6 hours ago, biostem said:

To some extent, it's a matter of "delay of gratification" - While I agree that sets should be viable at all levels, overall, there is also something to be said about having the patience to slog through some less fun power picks until you get to the good stuff...

With this games exemplar system and reasons to go back to lower levels, the whole delaying gratification argument does not work.

[Rudra]

18 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

I am not reading all of that and the other post, please condense

Sure. Your logic is flawed. Want to know how and why? Go back and read the post.

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

With this games exemplar system and reasons to go back to lower levels, the whole delaying gratification argument does not work.

You are conveniently ignoring the +5 levels you get while exemplared/malefactored. If you want to know why @biostem's statement works, actually read the posts of your thread.

[battlewraith]

4 hours ago, biostem said:

One person's "convoluted" is another person's "well reasoned"...

 

Which doesn't really support your feedback, does it?

 

I remember my controllers being really lame until getting a pet. Ultimately somebody's making a suggestion based on their subjective experience of gameplay. I will never understand the people that drop in to crap on ideas while acting like they're solving a math problem. 

[biostem]

8 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Which doesn't really support your feedback, does it?

 

I remember my controllers being really lame until getting a pet. Ultimately somebody's making a suggestion based on their subjective experience of gameplay. I will never understand the people that drop in to crap on ideas while acting like they're solving a math problem. 

I've never had any issues with any of my controllers feeling weak or underpowered;  Set up containment, then profit.  It's really that simple.  Perhaps you are just not a good fit for the AT, or perhaps you are expecting something out of them that isn't to be had.  If, as you say, this whole topic is merely a matter of subjective opinion, then it is incumbent upon you to also acknowledge that, and that the counter-perspectives are just as valid...

Edited June 28, 2022 by biostem

[kelika2]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

You are conveniently ignoring the +5 levels you get while exemplared/malefactored. If you want to know why @biostem's statement works, actually read the posts of your thread.

If we got pets at level 12, we would get them at 7.  I dont know why you are getting upset since the point was to help out lower level trollers/doms

[Rudra]

36 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

If we got pets at level 12, we would get them at 7.  I dont know why you are getting upset since the point was to help out lower level trollers/doms

Read your thread. The reason why people are upset over this proposal is specifically identified in the thread.

[Greycat]

My worst damage 'trollers have probably been Earth/FF and Ice/Emp.

 

Having Jack or Lumpy at 12 or 18 wouldn't have helped them at all. Why?

 

At 12, Earth gets Stalagmites - Ranged AOE, Damage, -Def, with the (very nice) AOE hold at 26. Which is even *more* useful than an uncontrolled pet either running off to aggro something to the side or just standing there since the enemy trying to kill me isn't in its aggro range.  18? Earthquake. Also MUCH more useful than a pet.

 

Ice? Ice gets ice slick. FAR more useful than a pet, FAR easier to have up almost constantly. 18, Flash Freeze. Yes, I know, "oh it's a sleep, sleeps suck because stuff wakes up" (ignoring the shutting off of things like... shields, armors and -tohit auras even if they do wake up.) But still more useful, either on its own or by letting me take a secondary or pool pick then, than randomly-wandering-Jack is.

 

About the only one I can see people going "Eh, sure" is Gravity, given the few people who seem to use or like Dimension Shift (12) - but I can't see getting that at 32 instead of Singy as being all that welcome.

 

Oh, and everyone's (*cough*) favourite , Illusion. You want a mass-invis (the second invis of the set, I should add) as the capping level 32 power of the set? Really? And Phantasm coming in before the set-defining Phantom Army? Or instead of, since PA's 18?

 

Bad idea's bad. Some control sets could use some tweaks, sure. But this? This isn't it.