KB to KD toggle

[JasperStone]

24 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If every power had a baked-in option so you could select what it did, then you would just delete every power set but 1 for every AT's primary and secondary. Hells, you could just delete the ATs and have 1 primary set and 1 secondary set. A rather extreme option for what looks to be a non-issue given the tools we already have.

I was talking about Knockback powers ...

Seemed my apologies

[JasperStone]

25 minutes ago, Andreah said:

Another, somewhat kludgy, solution is to use unslotters to remove your KB->KD set pieces and put them to the far right of your last enhancement tray, and temporarily put in the damage/etc maximizing enhancements one would prefer to use instead. Unslotters are only 120K each. Carry a few hundred.

This has been recommended before.

 

[Andreah]

1 hour ago, JasperStone said:

This has been recommended before.

 

This and using multiple builds are still the best answers. Using multiple builds has a high up front cost, to pay for all the duplicate enhancements; using unslotters has a much lower, but ongoing cost.

[biostem]

I wonder if adding "regular" and easily obtainable KB->KD SOs would be a solution...

Edited July 6, 2022 by biostem

[JasperStone]

Just now, biostem said:

I wonder if adding "regular" and easily obtainable KB-KD SOs would be a solution...

Yes.

Still giving up a slot, but ok

[JasperStone]

Also is a Rare/Very Rare set for Knockback.

 

A reminder that players complained so much about the "speed" portion of Speed boost and also group Flight that we got Null the Gull

[biostem]

Another option is to change all knock powers to be < 1 mag; then players who actually want knockBACK can slot KB enh's...

[Luminara]

16 minutes ago, biostem said:

Another option is to change all knock powers to be < 1 mag; then players who actually want knockBACK can slot KB enh's...

 

Can't turn 0.67 KB into 18.69 KB with enhancements.  Can't take high mag KB away from players who want it.  Non-starter.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

Can't turn 0.67 KB into 18.69 KB with enhancements.  Can't take high mag KB away from players who want it.  Non-starter.

It's not a perfect solution, but I'd wager that the number of players who actually want such extreme knockback is much smaller than those who want KD instead...

[Troo]

10 minutes ago, biostem said:

It's not a perfect solution, but I'd wager that the number of players who actually want such extreme knockback is much smaller than those who want KD instead...

 

the better solution is to use the new equation to calculate damage for knock back based on magnitude or distance.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Troo

[biostem]

7 minutes ago, Troo said:

the better solution is to use the new equation to calculate damage for knock back based on magnitude or distance.

That doesn't address the root issue, which is not wanting to fling enemies everywhere...

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, biostem said:

It's not a perfect solution, but I'd wager that the number of players who actually want such extreme knockback is much smaller than those who want KD instead...

Except that is talking about taking something away from players that they already have and want. There are already solutions for changing KB to KD. Changing KB powers so they can't do KB any more is a big NO in my book. I don't care how many would prefer it be KD instead. KB powers already give KB and there are players that enjoy that.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Except that is talking about taking something away from players that they already have and want. There are already solutions for changing KB to KD. Changing KB powers so they can't do KB any more is a big NO in my book. I don't care how many would prefer it be KD instead. KB powers already give KB and there are players that enjoy that.

I understand, but you also have to weigh the pros and cons of any decision.  They did this when they made fitness inherent.  They did this when they dropped the travel power requirements to 4...

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, biostem said:

I understand, but you also have to weigh the pros and cons of any decision.  They did this when they made fitness inherent.  They did this when they dropped the travel power requirements to 4...

I get that. And I do my best to do so. However, at least to me, those that already have something one way and want it that way should always have priority over those that want it a different way and are seemingly unwilling to accept the already provided fixes.

 

If KB on teams is that big a deal but the player wants a KB build, then either find a new team, work with the team to find an acceptable middle ground, solo, or use one of the other available build slots to have a build for when on a team or solo. If the player already uses all the available build slots? Then ask the devs to enable additional build slots. Maybe purchasable up to a limit for an exorbitant fee from P2W. There are other, and in my opinion at least, better ways to deal with this than taking something players are already enjoying away from them.

 

And if the complaint is that the extra build slot will cost the player an arm, a leg, half a lung, their next five newborns, and a mountain of gold? Then maybe make some cheaper builds to play until you can build your ultra uber super max ultimate build again. Or just make some cheaper builds and have fun.

 

Edit: I would also like to point out that the travel pool and fitness going inherent changes did not take anything away from anyone.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Rudra

[Troo]

45 minutes ago, biostem said:

That doesn't address the root issue, which is not wanting to fling enemies everywhere...

 

if those targets are flung and defeated, problem solved.

anything tough enough wont go far.

[TheZag]

Enemies should take +1000% fall damage for 2 seconds after getting hit with knockback so i can have more fun clearing the rooftops in kings row.

[Stormwalker]

The problem with the "have two builds" idea for this is that if this is the unviersal solution, then anyone who is a relative newbie and not fantastically wealthy isn't going to be able to afford to have two builds, and is thus still going to get grief from teams because of their knockback... and these are exactly the people we don't want getting grief from their teams because we want them to stay around.  Just saying.

 

Hell, I haven't finished my first build on most of my characters yet (in fact, I only just completed my first build on my first character last night, and that's only counting the IO's, not the Incarnate stuff).  And Ive been on HC over a month, so only sort of a newbie.

 

Getting fantastically rich takes time if you are not someone who enjoys playing the market.

[Stormwalker]

6 minutes ago, TheZag said:

Enemies should take +1000% fall damage for 2 seconds after getting hit with knockback so i can have more fun clearing the rooftops in kings row.

 

You are making me want to play Jedi: Fallen Order again.  Yeeting Stormtroopers off cliffs never gets old.

[TheZag]

1 minute ago, Stormwalker said:

 

You are making me want to play Jedi: Fallen Order again.  Yeeting Stormtroopers off cliffs never gets old.

 

This reminds me to add a bind that says yeet!  whenever i use a knockback.

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

The problem with the "have two builds" idea for this is that if this is the unviersal solution, then anyone who is a relative newbie and not fantastically wealthy isn't going to be able to afford to have two builds, and is thus still going to get grief from teams because of their knockback... and these are exactly the people we don't want getting grief from their teams because we want them to stay around.  Just saying.

 

Hell, I haven't finished my first build on most of my characters yet (in fact, I only just completed my first build on my first character last night, and that's only counting the IO's, not the Incarnate stuff).  And Ive been on HC over a month, so only sort of a newbie.

 

Getting fantastically rich takes time if you are not someone who enjoys playing the market.

Agreed, getting new players to stick around and enjoy the game is a priority. So is not stepping on the current player base. So how would you propose dealing with this then? Without taking away current players' ability to enjoy KB. Also considering the options we already have for KB mitigation for those that don't want it.

[Stormwalker]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Agreed, getting new players to stick around and enjoy the game is a priority. So is not stepping on the current player base. So how would you propose dealing with this then? Without taking away current players' ability to enjoy KB. Also considering the options we already have for KB mitigation for those that don't want it.

 

Unfortunately, I don't really have any better ideas.  Mostly just advising that we remember that people who are new may not be able to have two builds and, y'know, not get mad at them for not being able to use the best solution available.

 

Or, the wise words of Bill and Ted still apply:  "Be excellent to each other."

Edited July 6, 2022 by Stormwalker

[Greycat]

Just no. Having a toggle that people *will* pressure others into using means the opportunity to *use knockback properly with teams* is removed.  (And for teams to see that, gee, yes, KB *is* actually useful. Like the ITF team who was going to complain about my 'shade 'til they realized - " hey look, stuff's being knocked *into* the tank!")

 

Don't like KB, solutions exist already that don't require removing anything.

[Rudra]

The teams griefing players for using KB are what I view is the problem, personally. Unless the KB character is intentionally trying to scatter the mobs to annoy the team, KB is not a problem. A player that learns to use KB with the team in mind will support the team without scattering the core of each group of mobs. (That takes time to learn.) A great player that understands KB will use it to contain the mobs in a group for the team. (That takes some serious skill. I adore those players.)

 

Teams complaining about KB characters typically aren't even giving the KB character/player a chance to show whether or not they know how to use KB in a team setting. They have a gut response of "KB BAD!!!! Get off my team!".

[arcane]

KB->KD is extremely powerful for one single enhancement slot. No way should you get to do that effect for free. Many powers radically transform under the effect - Bonfire, Tornado, etc.

[Stormwalker]

33 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The teams griefing players for using KB are what I view is the problem, personally. Unless the KB character is intentionally trying to scatter the mobs to annoy the team, KB is not a problem. A player that learns to use KB with the team in mind will support the team without scattering the core of each group of mobs. (That takes time to learn.) A great player that understands KB will use it to contain the mobs in a group for the team. (That takes some serious skill. I adore those players.)

 

Teams complaining about KB characters typically aren't even giving the KB character/player a chance to show whether or not they know how to use KB in a team setting. They have a gut response of "KB BAD!!!! Get off my team!".

 

This is certainly true.

 

I don't team that much, and didn't team that much on Live, but on my Energy/Energy blaster I never once had anyone complain about my use of KB once the party actually got rolling.  Had some people complain about it before we ever got started, though!

 

I have rules on the use of Knockback as an Energy Blaster.  I used to share these rules with my team before starting (I usually only team for TF's, so there was usually time while everyone got ready)

1). I will try not to KB your melee targets.  It may happen on occasion, but if so, it was an accident and I apologize in advance for it.

2). If I KB a single Minion or LT, I am claiming that target and I will finish it, so you can safely ignore it.

3). If I use Energy Torrent, I will either hover over the spawn so they are KD'd instead of KB'd, or I will try to aim them toward the tank.

4). I'll warn you before I Nova so you know what to expect [This was back before KB->KD was an option, though.]

5). If something gets in my face and I don't have room to fly away from it, I WILL knock it across the room.  It's the only defense I have.

 

Those rules worked pretty well for me.  Like I said, once the party got rolling, nobody EVER complained, so I feel like I was doing a pretty good job sticking to them.

 

Also, Rule 3 reminds of a general tip for any flyer with directional KB - Hovering above a target transforms most directional KB's into KD.  Know how to use this!

 

And back on topic, I wouldn't want KB -> KD to be universal.  Sure, KB -> KD is wonderful in Explosive Blast (honestly, I never took Explosive Blast before KB -> KD became available), but I sure as heck do not want Power Thrust (which is my "get out of my face!" button)  KD'ing instead of KB'ing.