Empathy: We can't keep the people who play it from being a punchline, but we can at least make it so it's not the set's fault

[Darmian]

2 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

 

It looks like it was merged.

 

Tsk.  Missed that.

 

 

[Blackfeather]

8 minutes ago, Darmian said:

Tsk.  Missed that.

 

It did draw attention, so it served its purpose, I suppose! ...maybe I should intentionally mess things up in the write-ups that I make. 🤣

[Rudra]

Yeah... I'm against that thematically and mechanically. Mechanically because no power set has a heal and rez combined into one power. Thematically because absorb pain is you take the target's injuries unto yourself to heal them. So if the target is dead, you're taking their death unto you to rez them. And I don't see any comment about using absorb pain killing the user if used to rez a target.

 

Edit: So if Empathy gets to merge a heal and a rez, then all the other power sets that have a heal and a rez should get to merge them too.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Rudra

[Blackfeather]

38 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Yeah... I'm against that thematically and mechanically. Mechanically because no power set has a heal and rez combined into one power. Thematically because absorb pain is you take the target's injuries unto yourself to heal them. So if the target is dead, you're taking their death unto you to rez them. And I don't see any comment about using absorb pain killing the user if used to rez a target.

 

Edit: So if Empathy gets to merge a heal and a rez, then all the other power sets that have a heal and a rez should get to merge them too.

 

Well...actually Rebirth does.

 

Quote

Rebirth

Rebirth can either greatly heal a conscious ally for a large amount of health over time or it can revive a fallen ally with a large amount of health and endurance and cause them to recover health over time. This power also grants 3 stacks of Bloom.

[Vanden]

And you were the one who said:

 

On 7/12/2022 at 9:50 PM, Rudra said:

Isn't Empathy supposed to have the best heals?

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

 

Well...actually Rebirth does.

 

Did not know that. Thanks.

 

11 minutes ago, Vanden said:

And you were the one who said:

 

Yep. Is why it was a question. If you're going to quote me, please make note of the context of the quote.

 

On 7/12/2022 at 7:50 PM, Rudra said:

Isn't Empathy supposed to have the best heals? Maybe even the buffs? So what is so bad about it? It may not be an offensive set, but if it does what it is supposed to do, then what needs to be fixed?

 

If it is the set's reputation because of player usage, what bearing does that have on the set itself? Support sets tend to have high learning curves. I don't see the need for this change.

 

I'm not going to argue on this one. I don't play empaths because of the support focus. Just like I don't play several other power sets because of their support focus. I am still left wondering why though. And that is from reading the OP. Why is this needed? The OP doesn't give any real reason other than having "the reputation of being the power set of choice for bad players". It doesn't bring much to the table? It has THREE heals plus a regen buff! It has a rez. It has a Mag 12.98 status resist buff. It has a +DEF (All), +DAM, and +ToHit in ONE power. It has a recovery buff. And its tier 9 buffs recovery, regeneration, and attack rate.

 

That is a LOT to bring to the table. And 3 of those are PBAoEs.

 

Edit: And another confusing point: You want to merge the rez into one of the heals. If you do that, then every power set with a heal and rez is going to want to be merged as well. Are you willing to accept that?

 Note that I admit I do not know about Empathy. I do not play support focused characters. Except for my third post, and now this one, I kept my posts as questions and did my best to ensure readers understood that I was asking questions because I did not know.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Rudra
Edited for clarity.

[eldriyth]

On 7/12/2022 at 2:37 PM, Oklahoman said:

Even back on Live, people were asking for Empathy to get some love. I like some of your ideas, just like I like some of the ideas in these other threads. Hopefully, we'll see some long overdue attention to this powerset soon.

Page 4 won't have it. So people will be waiting until next year with the speed of this team if it's actually looked at. Masterminds have wanted multiple changes for years now and they add bards instead. No idea where the priorities of this dev team are right now because it seems like they are all over the place.

Edited July 15, 2022 by eldriyth

[golstat2003]

On 7/14/2022 at 1:40 PM, arcane said:

I disagree. I think what makes Power Booster Farsight broken is that it affects the caster. We don’t call Power Boosted Force Field Bubbles overpowered because they don’t self buff. 
 

If you look at every Support powerset you will see that powers that only affect allies are typically some of the strongest. If they got a self-Fortitude I would expect the values to be cut in half at least. 

And I disagree. A power like that being able to buff an entire league is ludicrous. I think that is a major problem with that power. If I were changing farsight that’s the first thing I would change. I would also reduce what power boost does to it in some way. Whether it affects the cater or not is less of an issue imo. But we can all agree to disagree.

[golstat2003]

21 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

 

Well...actually Rebirth does.

 

And I had completely forgotten about that version of Rebirth!!!

 

and ANYONE can take that! Lol

[Rudra]

So here's a thought that will get me stoned to death: Make Rebirth a rez only power to match the rest.

 

Edit: And if not, then make Howling Twilight and the other non-pool rezzes also function as a heal. (Edit again: Erm... possibly discounting the self-rezzes....)

Edited July 15, 2022 by Rudra

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So here's a thought that will get me stoned to death: Make Rebirth a rez only power to match the rest.

 

Why?

[Rudra]

To match the rest.

 

Edit: Unless you're asking why I would be stoned to death for the suggestion. Then the answer is because that would be a very unpopular idea.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Rudra

[Vanden]

Just now, Rudra said:

To match the rest.

 

Every rez has its thing (every rez except Empathy, anyway). Thermal's rez is also a nuke, Dark's and Electric's rezzes are AoE rez and control, Rad's rez is a huge buff of the target, Pain's rez is a huge buff on the caster. Why do you think Nature and Empathy's rezzes shouldn't have something like those?

[Rudra]

Didn't say that. Said take away the heal to match the rest. Don't have a problem with them having additional effects.

[Vanden]

Being able to use it to heal living players is Rebirth’s extra effect. You take that away, you’re taking away what makes it Rebirth.

[Rudra]

I disagree on the set up, but that's me. Power already exists. People are using it. People are enjoying it. Not going to argue to change that. Your point is made. Apologies. Edit: For the initial statement to change it.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Rudra

[AlwaysAPrice]

On 7/12/2022 at 2:29 AM, Vanden said:

Healing Aura

• Now grants 8 endurance to all affected targets. This is something I've seen suggested before, and I like the idea. It would really help with low-level play.
• Healing is 50% stronger when used on pets and allied NPCs
• Activation time reduced to 1 second

 

Heal Other

• Range increased to 100 feet
• Healing is 50% stronger on pets and allied NPCs

 

Feel like the improvement to healing of pets/NPCs is something that should be more of an overall improvement to all healing in the game or just all Mastermind & maybe Controller healing,

 

On 7/12/2022 at 2:29 AM, Vanden said:

Resurrect

• It's gone now

 

Absorb Pain

• Hah, just kidding about Resurrect. It's been combined into Absorb Pain.
• Using Absorb Pain on a defeated player revives them with full Health and Endurance. Recharge is 60 seconds, and the range to rez a player is 60 feet. No self-damage or debuffs when used to rez a player.
• Absorb Pain's heal on living players reduced from scale 5 to scale 3.5. Now grants 20% absorb to the target for 20 seconds
• Recharge on Absorb Pain when used on a living player increased to 30 seconds, range increased to 100 feet
• -100% Healing effectiveness removed, making it possible to recover hit points by using Healing Aura, inspirations, or having another player heal you.

 

Pretty good way to give Empathy's rez some character, also adding an Absorb element to the power with Absorb in its name is just a nice sensible update. I do think it should still self-damage on rez, and while I like the idea of removing the general heal prevention I think it would fit the concept of the power better if it still prevented you from healing yourself just with Healing Aura for a time (outside healing/insps still fine), at least after using its full potential of resurrection.

 

On 7/12/2022 at 2:29 AM, Vanden said:

Regeneration Aura

• Now grants 25% defense debuff resistance
• "Grace period" function added; for 10 seconds after activation, any teammate that moves within 25 feet of the caster receives the Regeneration Aura buff. Only teammates are eligible for this buff; leaguemates on different teams cannot receive the buff.
• The initial cast of the power still has a 255 target limit and can affect any allied target within range.

 

Recovery Aura

• Now grants 40% recharge and movement slow resistance
• Has the same grace period functionality as Regeneration Aura.

 

40% recharge is pretty damn strong, especially given it affects the caster. Even half that would still be great. And then I realized that's probably meant to be "recharge resistance and movement slow resistance"

 

Overall I like this rework. It's not overhauling the set with some late-game-style resource mechanic (though it did give me an idea for one to noodle on), and it addresses what I consider the main design failing of Empathy: having zero interaction with the character's offensive capabilities (except perhaps for pet sets). Even just the addition of Valor would be enough to make Empathy a set I don't dismiss out of hand as uninteresting because it has zero effect on how I use the other half of my powers.

[Menelruin]

Two things:

 

1:  Don't lots of other rez powers either carry a major ally buff, enemy debuff, AoE, or some combination along with them?  No one seems to mind about THOSE effects getting paired.  Or is it just because they can't be used on living allies?

2:  From what I understand, the absolute CORE problem of Empathy is that it's the set beat suited for recovering the team's status when things go BADLY, but hence it doesn't have as much it can do to further improve the team when it's doing WELL.  It needs some kind of effect akin to "overhealing," but where the extra healing somehow gets turned into OFFENSIVE buffs rather than defensive ones or just Absorb.  Otherwise, if an Emp Defender is in a team where a Time or FF is keeping folks from ever dropping below 95% HP anyway, there just isn't as much they can DO to further improve the team.....

[Naraka]

19 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

And I disagree. A power like that being able to buff an entire league is ludicrous. I think that is a major problem with that power. If I were changing farsight that’s the first thing I would change. I would also reduce what power boost does to it in some way. Whether it affects the cater or not is less of an issue imo. But we can all agree to disagree.

Is affecting an entire league that big a deal? How often do you even run in leagues? And how often do you not have such a saturation of buffs that you'd probably hit caps by just sneezing.

[golstat2003]

55 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Is affecting an entire league that big a deal? How often do you even run in leagues? And how often do you not have such a saturation of buffs that you'd probably hit caps by just sneezing.

To be clear I would rather have the caster be able to affect themself versus being able to buff an entire league if it’s a choice of how to balance the power. There are enough incarnate buffs being flung around in leagues, as you mention, that it’s an easier trade off for balance.

 

the way powerboost affects it would have to change. I think that adjustment is just inevitable 

 

and to be clearer with farsight existing as it does I don’t see anything overpowering with any of the proposed buffs of the OP for Empathy 

Edited July 16, 2022 by golstat2003

[Doomguide2005]

Few random thoughts.

     Almost every Rez-type power heals back an amount of health and endurance, several do 100%/100% (making an accompanying Heal nearly pointless)  Then on top of that they carry buffs and debuffs.  Several do that across multiple dead allies.  Howling Twilight 100%/100% AoE, debuffs/mez, Defibrillate 100%/100%, single ally, debuffs/mez, Bastion large HoT/large End over time but single target effects alive or dead target.  And so on.  There's not a single Rez power that can be reasonably said to be inferior to Resurrect and quite a few with with significant benefits over Resurrect.  I'd angle towards buffing the ally instead.  First thing I'm going to generally do is buff them with Fortitude and possibly CM (depending on AT and exactly how the rez occured, which almost certainly wasn't my Empath using Resurrect)

     I like the idea of giving HO a range and/or strength boost over similar powers. 

     Adding a Heal/Regeneration debuff resistance effect somewhere.  Make it harder to debuff the regen buffs.

     Recovery Aura??  That in addition to the Endurance Recovery boost?  If not hard no thank you.  If you're looking to beef up endgame value (because "everyone" is recovery stable) then add an Endurance Drain resistance effect or endurance debuff resistance (resist -end attack effects) 

     Regeneration Aura -> not sold on why add DDR effect especially to this power.  Clearly beneficial, perhaps too much.  Last thing we need is power creep along the lines of City of everyone with capped DDR particularly well before Incarnates/Endgame.

     Fortitude and Valor -> @Spaghetti Bettyyes that's exactly why a full Green Machine team is so hard to kill.  Readily double stacked Fortitude plus Instant Healing levels of regeneration ... on SO builds.  Can only imagine how indestructible a full team of high end Incarnate builds might get.

[Vanden]

7 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Can only imagine how indestructible a full team of high end Incarnate builds might get.

 

Exactly as indestructible as they already are?

[Naraka]

40 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

Exactly as indestructible as they already are?

Maybe they meant they aren't fully aware how indestructible the can be now because they don't play incarnate content (like myself).

[Doomguide2005]

47 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Maybe they meant they aren't fully aware how indestructible the can be now because they don't play incarnate content (like myself).

Something in between.  I've been on SO and earlier set IO teams and they are really tough.  But haven't really seen a team of 4+ GM's with Incarnates involved.  So while I've run my own with incarnates teamed on PuGs can't recall anything 3 or 4+ GM offender builds involved in the post 50 content (at least since the early teens issue-wise).  I can only theorize on it based on the math involved which especially mitigation-wise gets rather extreme.   As in 2000+% regeneration (beyond hard cap), ~110+% defense without even trying to individually build for defense (~4 Fortitude per GM), essentially limitless endurance from stacked RAs), To Hit and Damage hard capped, resistance a bit weak overall ... just Epics maybe Tough but this assumes no Barrier employed and of course Defender caps at 75%. Mez, lololol, mezzing an AV would be easier.  Now add in your choice of Incarnates.  Yeah I'm pretty sure indestructible isn't overstating the potential mitigation involved.

 

Edit:  40+ content for a team of GMs has always been more a question of offense rather than mitigation.  And now we have crashless nukes, incarnate nukes, Lore pets, etc..

Edited July 16, 2022 by Doomguide2005

[Rudra]

I thought that was the goal of most suggestions on the forum? To make the game as easy as possible so they can say they want it made harder so they can not sleep while playing it. I'm probably just reading most of the threads though. (This comment is not aimed at this thread specifically. I don't use Empathy, so I have no say in what happens to it.)