issue 27 Focused Feedback: Attack Typing Adjustments

[Bopper]

34 minutes ago, EPGAH2 said:

What IO Sets give Defense against something OTHER than Smash/Lethal?

If you are ever having trouble finding set bonus options, I recommend this link. Nicely organized by set bonus type and you can see how many pieces of a set are required. https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Set_Bonus_Comparison_Tables

[Marbing]

49 minutes ago, EPGAH2 said:

Some have even suggested this will "force more diversity in teams", as if that's a good thing, let alone something people wanted.

Let's say you need more support characters. How many people want to play those vs. a damage-dealer, or even a Tanker?

Me! See my signature! 😄 I love playing support, I play it all day every day. I also love this change. But, I know that I am not everyone....

 

HOWEVER, I understand your concerns and the points you are making about, for example, the cold bullet (it should be a lethal attack). I do not want to speak for the devs... but I believe the logic is that currently S/L defense is overperforming to the point that it makes many (not all) other defenses nearly pointless (unless you don't have S/L protection).

 

For example there are very few cold attacks out there that don't have a smashing or lethal component attached to them. This makes Cold Defense rather pointless except in niche situations. By making cold attacks roll against your cold defense instead, you actually get a buff to cold defenses importance in game. The same can actually be said for fire, negative (a little less so), and energy defense. Psi defense is a little less so, because I believe the majority of those attacks are just psi, so that remains relatively unaffected, except again in a couple of situations. This also actually buffs the importance of positional defenses. Thus, giving ranged defense (which a lot of blasters/support toons build for also) a bit of a buff in a way. Overall though, these changes were tested and it was discovered that they have had very little impact so far except against a few enemy groups. But by all means test test test (as I know you said you have) because if there is something that is missing, I am sure the devs will want to take a look at it. 

 So it isn't as big a nerf and it sounds. I hope that helps and I hope I didn't repeat anything you already knew. If I did, sorry. I just figured I was here and typing so why not say everything. 😄 

[arthurh35353]

7 hours ago, Dokam said:

This is probably slightly Off topic, but related to these changes.    Will we see these changes across some of the resistance armor powers that should have more advantage than others on certain attack types?  I cant help but think about how , take for example Dark Armor, Has more S/L resistance than Neg Energy resistance across most of its powers.  

I think that's because Dark Armor has other weirdness, like Melee AOE damage and fears for some (minion) mitigation. It really does work pretty well against lower conning minions.

[Stormwalker]

2 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

I am off to work soon so don't have time to test, but how does this affect sets like Wp/Bio armor? they are quite low in the exotic mitigations and don't have DDR or much anyway. Bio's defensive stance may need looking at especially for the more difficult settings.

 

It's pretty easy to soft-cap Energy/Negative defense on Willpower, especially if you don't bother to soft-cap Smash/Lethal defense (which I usually don't, since I'm going to have hard-capped S/L resistances anyway (and particularly on my Staff/WP who is going to get soft-capped Lethal anyway thanks to Guarded Spin).  I haven't soft-capped Fire/Cold on my /WP's, but purple attack sets tend to provide lots of Fire/Cold resist.  And /WP does better against Psi than most sets already.

 

Honestly, I think WP is in a better situation with regard to this change than, say, Energy Aura, which is definitely going to have to be very careful around certain enemies even with the small amounts of Psi/Toxic mitigation being added.  That said, Energy Aura is still going to be a very strong set overall.

[EPGAH2]

29 minutes ago, Marbing said:

Me! See my signature! 😄 I love playing support, I play it all day every day. I also love this change. But, I know that I am not everyone....

 

HOWEVER, I understand your concerns and the points you are making about, for example, the cold bullet (it should be a lethal attack). I do not want to speak for the devs... but I believe the logic is that currently S/L defense is overperforming to the point that it makes many (not all) other defenses nearly pointless (unless you don't have S/L protection).

 

For example there are very few cold attacks out there that don't have a smashing or lethal component attached to them. This makes Cold Defense rather pointless except in niche situations. By making cold attacks roll against your cold defense instead, you actually get a buff to cold defenses importance in game. The same can actually be said for fire, negative (a little less so), and energy defense. Psi defense is a little less so, because I believe the majority of those attacks are just psi, so that remains relatively unaffected, except again in a couple of situations. This also actually buffs the importance of positional defenses. Thus, giving ranged defense (which a lot of blasters/support toons build for also) a bit of a buff in a way. Overall though, these changes were tested and it was discovered that they have had very little impact so far except against a few enemy groups. But by all means test test test (as I know you said you have) because if there is something that is missing, I am sure the devs will want to take a look at it. 

 So it isn't as big a nerf and it sounds. I hope that helps and I hope I didn't repeat anything you already knew. If I did, sorry. I just figured I was here and typing so why not say everything. 😄 

But here's the thing: If you dodge sharp or blunt objects for a living, why would you suddenly NOT dodge them if they're made of Ice or Darkness?

 

"Whichever one you defend against the best" seems like a better rule than "Whichever the attack consists most of".

 

Yes, Psi has no location, so you can't defend against it. But that's been a problem since I1. Psi is not really defended against, it's resisted. Those that can resist it, resist it quite heavily, those that don't die easy.

 

This change makes S/L defense--which is easy to get, from Weave, Maneuvers, or even Set Bonuses--a lot less worthy if not worthless.

I don't see a buff to cold defense's importance as a good thing. Only a few Powersets have it innately, and those that don't, you don't have enough slots to go around.

So you think it just changes the meta to positional instead of S/L? That still makes winners and losers. Hell if you really wanted to twist a negative into a positive, you could say that it makes Resists more important. Defense has been better since Issue 1. Various movies have even pointed out the best way to survive a fight is not to get hit.

For Positional defense, you have to 3-6 slot Sets that most people do not use or want. Because they underperform compared to the sets everyone wants.

How much damage or recharge will we have to give up to defend against other types? Please note /Maxslots does not work on this Server, you cannot 6-slot everything.
And even if you slot the "important" powers--whichever those may be to you--will you go for defense or will you go for damage?
TLDR: If it changes the meta this much, it IS a big nerf! If it's not a big change, why do it at all, rather than direct limited manpower to fixing things?

If it's really that minor, why waste the effort? Opportunity Costs and all that.

 

Not only that but they are retroactively changing the monsters' attacks. Vampyr's Shadow Punch packs so much shadow that they forgot to put the punch in--NO SMASH anymore! And they added Confuse to Crey to my chagrin.

 

I am trying to respond to your points in order, I don't know how to break the quote into multiple blocks. I agree with saying everything.

Edited July 16, 2022 by EPGAH2
If it changes the meta, it IS a big nerf!

[Seed22]

53 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

I play support a lot. I enjoy it. I have several 50s.

 

I see these changes as a boon to support chars, because it will make them a little bit more needed.

 

 

Should be "desirable". No AT should ever be needed for a team to at least work through a TF or mishs

[kburd825]

I would like to suggest that instead of changing the way defense works, certain powers or specific enemies could be added that don't deal smashing or lethal damage.  Crey was already changed to be more difficult at higher levels, so this could be done with all the factions that are seen at like level 40+ or something.  It wouldn't have to be a total overhaul, just add special powers to one or two of the minions or bosses or whatever that only do cold/negative/toxic/etc.  Or you could add a special enemy that only does exotic damage.  New enemies were added after going rogue to Arachnos (Arachnos BCU or whatever it is).  I'd like to advocate that rather something be taken away, we add to the game.

[EPGAH2]

50 minutes ago, Bopper said:

If you are ever having trouble finding set bonus options, I recommend this link. Nicely organized by set bonus type and you can see how many pieces of a set are required. https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Set_Bonus_Comparison_Tables

Please reread your own link. To get exotic defenses, you have to 3-6 slot (Mostly 6, especially to partly close the Psi hole), your slots are limited. Some of those Sets aren't used much because they underperform. Take Calibrated Accuracy, 3 slots vs. Dark Watcher's Despair or Gaussian's Calibrated Accuracy. Will you choose damage or defense?

This is even MORE Crippling Overspecialization.

[KaizenSoze]

2 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Should be "desirable". No AT should ever be needed for a team to at least work through a TF or mishs

To be clear, you want to keep support marginalized. So, you can curb stomp mobs due to s/l defense massively over performing.

 

3 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Should be "desirable". No AT should ever be needed for a team to at least work through a TF or mishs

Haha. I said a little bit more needed, not required. Again total overreaction to the changes.

[EPGAH2]

7 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Should be "desirable". No AT should ever be needed for a team to at least work through a TF or mishs

This! Plus, no Powerset or Enhancement Set should be de-facto required either.

[Seed22]

1 minute ago, KaizenSoze said:

To be clear, you want to keep support marginalized. So, you can curb stomp mobs due to s/l defense massively over performing.

 

Haha. I said a little bit more needed, not required. Again total overreaction to the changes.

Nah, it's not. And that changes nothing from my original post 😄

 

Also I couldn't give a rats ass about S/L def, considering how easy ranged softcap is to get

[EPGAH2]

31 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

To be clear, you want to keep support marginalized. So, you can curb stomp mobs due to s/l defense massively over performing.

 

Haha. I said a little bit more needed, not required. Again total overreaction to the changes.

What do you mean "marginalized"? The game is designed around damage. You do not get EXP for heals or buffs, you get EXP for kills, whether yours, a teammate's or a summon's. The games that reward EXP for heals are Disgaea (Above #2) and the Shining Force series--most of which were never ported to America.

Toward the end of Live the devs even seemed to lean into this, providing missions with large numbers of enemies to slaughter. People like feeling powerful via mass-kills. Dying over and over hurts, even if some people are Dark Souls masochists.

 

Even support characters, if they solo, rely on S/L Defense--usually Boxing->Tough->Weave, possibly Maneuvers--to stay alive. There is no "overperforming" in a superhero game. What kind of idiot would let themselves get hit because the incoming damage is mostly NOT Smash/Lethal?

"Oh, there's a bullet coming toward me, but because it's ice, I think I'll facetank it instead of dodge!"?

Edited July 16, 2022 by EPGAH2
Game suggestions.

[Burnt Umber]

Honestly, I feel like this change to defense really doesn't amount to much:  it scarcely affects any of my defense-based characters.  My Stone Armor Tank doesn't have any Fire/Cold or Toxic Defense but soft-capped to everything else.  My Necro/Traps MM is soft-capped to S/L and Energy but his pets are running at 30%+ defense to all so he'll probably get by.  The rest of my defense-based characters didn't skimp on their defenses through slotting or otherwise, and I don't notice anything different about playing them on Beta.

 

Re:  Slotting/Building Opportunity Cost

 

To be frank, I think if you were building only for S/L and Energy, then the only power that is taking a hit is Scorpion Shield:  every other power pool was providing defense to everything.  And if you were soft-capping through slotting, it was impossible not to pick-up other defenses to some degree through decent slotting.  For example, if you were slotting, say, a ranged damage power, then Thunderstrike was a great set because it provided lots of Energy, N. Energy, and Ranged Defense by slotting it.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Burnt Umber

[EPGAH2]

1 hour ago, Burnt Umber said:

Honestly, I feel like this change to defense really doesn't amount to much:  it scarcely affects any of my defense-based characters.  My Stone Armor Tank doesn't have any Fire/Cold or Toxic Defense but soft-capped to everything else.  My Necro/Traps MM is soft-capped to S/L and Energy but his pets are running at 30%+ defense to all so he'll probably get by.  The rest of my defense-based characters didn't skimp on their defenses through slotting or otherwise, I I don't notice anything different about playing them on Beta.

 

Re:  Slotting/Building Opportunity Cost

 

To be frank, I think if you were building only for S/L and Energy, then the only power that is taking a hit is Scorpion Shield:  every other power pool was providing defense to everything.  And if you were soft-capping through slotting, it was impossible not to pick-up other defenses to some degree through decent slotting.  For example, if you were slotting, say, a ranged damage power, then Thunderstrike was a great set because it provided lots of Energy, N. Energy, and Ranged Defense by slotting it.

Your Stone Tank, are you running Granite, or some combination of the formerly lower Armors? Do you take Tough and Weave?

Have you tried going up against Lord Recluse? Or Arachnos in general, to a lesser degree? They pack a lot of nasty powers in their "kit" including the rarely defended or resisted Psi. There's a reason I'm the only one that made a Rikti farm, and there are no Arachnos or Carnie farms. (That I know of)

 

As a Mastermind, though, if you get Superior Command of the Mastermind, you get some heavy resists to Toxic and Psionic damage. Superior Mark of Supremacy resists Energy and Negative.

 

Is that why you're having less trouble on Beta? You're playing Resist instead of Defense? I fully agree that Resist Powersets won't feel the change asd much. You take everything on the chin, but you have armor over it. However, with the changed aggro, more attacks coming in, Resists can still be overwhelmed. A lot of attacks, regardless of element, will overcome any Resists.

THAT still works for both sides.

 

As to the slotting and Opportunity Cost, that's exactly what I was talking about. I use Apocalypse instead of Thunderstrike for ranged attacks. Because my last slot is the Javelin Proc, though, I don't get the Psi Defense. The way slotting is now, it's a lot easier to get S/L defense than any other Element or positional. But it took a long time and a lot of Inf to get there. Even if this change "only" makes you slot for positional, that's a huge waste of resources.

If you do slot for positional, then Psi attacks will still get through, because most do not have a positional. Which is probably an oversight (I HOPE)?

 

And again, if it "doesn't amount to much" why go through it in the first place? It's a lot of effort, and depending who you ask or whom you test against, it'll either melt the players' armor which is ruinous change, or do nothing, which is a waste of effort that could be spent fixing things or adding to the game. Remember they're not just changing how the powers hit, they're changing the powers of the monsters to make them mostly NOT Smash/Lethal (And in the Council Vampyr Shadow Punch, no Smash at all somehow!), which makes no sense, but makes the change actually do something.

 

And what's the point? To make orange Insps useful, or force players to change builds to Sets that are less effective or don't even exist yet?

There is no assurance they will nerf monsters similarly.

 

PS: How much do you play in the Combat Tab, with or without Hit Rolls showing, so you can tell what attacks are doing how much of what Element--yours and theirs?

Edited July 16, 2022 by EPGAH2
Mention Combat Tab

[EPGAH2]

19 minutes ago, Night said:

Was there even any good reasoning given for this change? Because this is just a global nerf across the board to defense. It's not fun, it only makes the power fantasy weaker, and this game is nothing if not power fantasy and that's good. All this will do is make people not wanna play.

I asked the same thing--twice--but never got an answer.

Have gotten some weird defenses of this nerf, though. From "It doesn't make much difference" to "The players will deal with it"!

And even people complaining that they're "too powerful" or that support classes are "marginalized". If the latter was the problem, they could change the EXP system to gain EXP for healing or buffs somehow, but that would be gamed more than AE!

[Burnt Umber]

7 minutes ago, EPGAH2 said:

Your Stone Tank, are you running Granite, or some combination of the formerly lower Armors? Do you take Tough and Weave?

Have you tried going up against Lord Recluse? Or Arachnos in general, to a lesser degree? They pack a lot of nasty powers in their "kit" including the rarely defended or resisted Psi. There's a reason I'm the only one that made a Rikti farm, and there are no Arachnos or Carnie farms. (That I know of)

 

He's running the non-Granite toggles as well as tough and weave.  Against Carnies, Council, Longbow, and Arachnos, he got through it all.

 

12 minutes ago, EPGAH2 said:

As a Mastermind, though, if you get Superior Command of the Mastermind, you get some heavy resists to Toxic and Psionic damage. Superior Mark of Supremacy resists Energy and Negative.

 

Is that why you're having less trouble on Beta? You're playing Resist instead of Defense? I fully agree that Resist Powersets won't feel the change asd much. You take everything on the chin, but you have armor over it. However, with the changed aggro, more attacks coming in, Resists can still be overwhelmed. A lot of attacks, regardless of element, will overcome any Resists.

 

I have not played around with my MM, so I can't yet be certain of the impact on him.  However, to your question, no, he doesn't have those sets slotted nor is he built for resists.  I built him and his pets to have at least 30% (more when barrier is up) defense to all so he does okay for himself.

 

21 minutes ago, EPGAH2 said:

And again, if it "doesn't amount to much" why go through it in the first place? It's a lot of effort, and depending who you ask or whom you test against, it'll either melt the players' armor which is ruinous change, or do nothing, which is a waste of effort that could be spent fixing things or adding to the game. Remember they're not just changing how the powers hit, they're changing the powers of the monsters to make them mostly NOT Smash/Lethal (And in the Council Vampyr Shadow Punch, no Smash at all somehow!), which makes no sense, but makes the change actually do something.

 

And what's the point? To make orange Insps useful, or force players to change builds to Sets that are less effective or don't even exist yet?

There is no assurance they will nerf monsters similarly.

 

I feel that the changes were not noticeable on my defense-based characters, but they are either built for positionals or all the elements.  I think my strategy for slotting may differ a fair bit from the common min-max wisdom of the forums here though.  And in that respect I think that's what this change was targeting:  people who tried to make a character that trivialized most content by sort of cheezing the way the defense mechanics work in this game.

 

 

[Stormwalker]

6 minutes ago, Burnt Umber said:

I feel that the changes were not noticeable on my defense-based characters, but they are either built for positionals or all the elements.  I think my strategy for slotting may differ a fair bit from the common min-max wisdom of the forums here though.  And in that respect I think that's what this change was targeting:  people who tried to make a character that trivialized most content by sort of cheezing the way the defense mechanics work in this game.

 

 

 

My suspicion is somewhat in this line, but not quite the same: I'm inclined to think that the change is intended to force people to build a more diverse mitigation package in an effort to rein in some of the hyper-offensive builds.  In particular, to make players look seriously at things like the 6-piece set bonuses to Toxic and Psi resistance that are frequently eschewed on purple attack sets in favor of Moar Procs.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Stormwalker

[EPGAH2]

2 minutes ago, Burnt Umber said:

He's running the non-Granite toggles as well as tough and weave.  Against Carnies, Council, Longbow, and Arachnos, he got through it all.

Crystals and Minerals are Defense, the rest are Resists.

4 minutes ago, Burnt Umber said:

I feel that the changes were not noticeable on my defense-based characters, but they are either built for positionals or all the elements.  I think my strategy for slotting may differ a fair bit from the common min-max wisdom of the forums here though.  And in that respect I think that's what this change was targeting:  people who tried to make a character that trivialized most content by sort of cheezing the way the defense mechanics work in this game.

So what makes THEIR Builds "cheezing" but yours legit? This is a game about superheros, so you're SUPPOSED to be overpowered. But you have to build toward being overpowered and either struggle your way up TO that, or farm (Or have someone else farm for you). If it's a nerf targeted at ONLY the players who built their characters the best, that's literally even worse! Why punish those who did the best at buildcrafting (Or whatever it's called now)?

 

As to the way mechanics work in the game, the main problem to me is you can get attacked by more enemies, and with nerfed defense, you will get hit by more OF them, but you are still limited how many you can hit back! If they're raising aggro limit, why not raise the target limit to? Make it a big of' Free For All!

[SwitchFade]

1 minute ago, Stormwalker said:

 

My suspicion is somewhat in this line, but not quite the same: I'm inclined to think that the change is intended to force people to build a more diverse in an effort to rein in some of the hyper-offensive builds.  In particular, to make players look seriously at things like the 6-piece set bonuses to Toxic and Psi resistance that are frequently eschewed on purple attack sets in favor of Moar Procs.

My water/elec blapper is always first in soaking alpha, facetanking 54/8 MOBs, never leaves melee, unloads blaster level damage and never bothers even worrying about surviving because I know I won't get hit.

 

In fact, his name is iBlap.

 

If you want to see where this nerf was directly targeted, look no further.

 

As I said before I fully realize that level of survivability and damage output is redonk OP.

 

And I also mentioned I love my blasties, but I also understand the change. Not that I want it, but I understand it.

[Marbing]

Okay so I ran a couple tests with the following:

Elec/TA Controller with the following stats:

 

Things to note: This is a semi proc bomb build. It has clarion and also -22.79% tohit in flash arrow. Being a controller obviously comes with the perks of holds, confuse, as well as some massive -end from elec. 

The second build was:

DP/Nin Blaster with the following stats: 

 

Things to note: This build does not have clarion, so holds are only mitigated by break frees. The build DOES have barrier but I didn't use it in this test because I wanted to test his base defense values not ones inflated by barrier. This build can use HoB every 25 seconds, so clearing enemies is much faster than on the controller. But also less safe with no holds and no -tohit.
 

I saw no major noticeable change between live and brainstorm, when you take on one group at a time (More on this in a bit). I did PI Radios, solo, with a mix of Council, CoT, and Arachnos. [EDIT: Forgot to add, this was at +4/x8 because that is how I regularly play] I didn't keep track of clear times, I was just trying to take on one group at a time and see how well I survived playing it the same way. I noticed almost no difference in survival or difficulty except with Arachnos, but even then it wasn't massive, just have to be a little more careful. 

NOW, when I was less careful, played loose, and tried to wade into multiple spawns. I noticed a difference. This could be because of the aggro changes. I think those have a bigger impact than the attack type changes, but its not impossible solo. Just need to be more careful is all. 

 

I hope this helps, maybe it doesn't. Just what I noticed when testing the content. Not a huge deal overall, IMO. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Marbing
tYPinG is hArD

[Zepp]

5 hours ago, Bopper said:

If you are ever having trouble finding set bonus options, I recommend this link. Nicely organized by set bonus type and you can see how many pieces of a set are required. https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Set_Bonus_Comparison_Tables

There is also the "Set Bonus Finder" in Mids under the "Window" menu.

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, EPGAH2 said:

Yes, I use them both, but my point was you have to 6-slot certain rarely-used Sets for that, rather than Frankenslotting the ones that are commonly used because they WORK!

 

 

The 5- and 6-slot IO set bonuses are almost always positional/typed Defense.  Typed/positional Defense bonuses traditionally fill the 3- and 4-slot positions (2 for Basilisk's Gaze), and many of those are neither rarely used nor trash (Aegis, Reactive Armor, Thunderstrike, Basilisk's Gaze, Blessing of the Zephyr, Sting of the Manticore, to list a few).  You don't "have to" slot full IO sets.

[Marshal_General]

People do want to play support characters. The problem is at the end game they are not needed and this will address only part of the problem.. The other problem is with incarnates, everyone has a pocket nuke and lore pets.

[Marbing]

8 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

People do want to play support characters. The problem is at the end game they are not needed and this will address only part of the problem.. The other problem is with incarnates, everyone has a pocket nuke and lore pets.

Indeed, judgement rotation is super efficient. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Marbing

[Outrider_01]

Can anyone else tell me if they can still AFK Burn farm?  I just don't have enough time today to check all the previous pages.

 

I just did a really short AE on test server, start taking a lot of damage more than I expected AFK with auto Burn and watching it.  4/8 seems to melt me in about 45 seconds from accumulated damage when you could go 15 minutes AFK.  Haven't farmed that much in for a few month from working 6 days a week and exhausted to actively farm which I normally do, so went to do a little to farm on test to see these changes and I don't think its viable to do just a single round of Briggs asteroid maps without face planting.