issue 27 Focused Feedback: Sonic Attack Revamp

[Biosphere]

19 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

Like I said I'm a defender. Who cares about my AoE damage output on a team of AoeTanks and Blasters?

 

I raised a similar critique and the explanation given was that the Defender secondaries are meant to allow them to solo, so the current version of our Sonic Blast is underperforming because it's bad for solo. Buffing that is being used to justify the nerf to the support aspect of the blast so they can kill things by themselves.

 

I still fundamentally disagree with it. Glad to see that echoed here. Defenders are support and this is a team game.

[brattycommissar2]

as someone who doesn't really like doing damage personally and much prefers support, i prefer the older version of sonic. however, my friends who prefer damage to support love the new version of it because it does that blasting stuff better. this feels like a change that is good for you if you want sonic for personal damage but bad if you want it for support. wish there was a way we could just get both sets tbh, so no one loses anything, but i doubt that's in the cards

[BrandX]

37 minutes ago, brattycommissar2 said:

as someone who doesn't really like doing damage personally and much prefers support, i prefer the older version of sonic. however, my friends who prefer damage to support love the new version of it because it does that blasting stuff better. this feels like a change that is good for you if you want sonic for personal damage but bad if you want it for support. wish there was a way we could just get both sets tbh, so no one loses anything, but i doubt that's in the cards

 

It still supports as it still does the -Resist.  The real question I would think is, does it improve the soloing of said support character?  If you don't solo much, then that Support Set is doing a lot of the supporting anyways.

[brattycommissar2]

6 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

It still supports as it still does the -Resist.  The real question I would think is, does it improve the soloing of said support character?  If you don't solo much, then that Support Set is doing a lot of the supporting anyways.

it still does -res, it just does less, so it offers less support. will it solo better? definitely, but that's not my concern as stated

[arcane]

57 minutes ago, brattycommissar2 said:

as someone who doesn't really like doing damage personally and much prefers support, i prefer the older version of sonic. however, my friends who prefer damage to support love the new version of it because it does that blasting stuff better. this feels like a change that is good for you if you want sonic for personal damage but bad if you want it for support. wish there was a way we could just get both sets tbh, so no one loses anything, but i doubt that's in the cards

Sonic Attack is, among other things (1) a Blaster set and (2) factually the worst solo DPS blast set on live. It’s completely appropriate to adjust its support capabilities very slightly downward to justify giving it the damage buff it absolutely needs.

[brattycommissar2]

Just now, arcane said:

Sonic Attack is, among other things (1) a Blaster set and (2) factually the worst solo DPS blast set on live. It’s completely appropriate to adjust its support capabilities very slightly downward to justify giving it the damage buff it absolutely needs.

oh i'm not saying it's inappropriate! i completely understand the decision and stuff! i'm just saying i disagree with it because its niche as a not-for-blasters blast set was something i liked about it. this isn't a bad decision, it's just one that i ( and others with a similar mindset ) will dislike, which is okay- but likewise it's okay for myself ( and others ) to say that we won't like this change too- it's our honest feedback, after all

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, brattycommissar2 said:

oh i'm not saying it's inappropriate! i completely understand the decision and stuff! i'm just saying i disagree with it because its niche as a not-for-blasters blast set was something i liked about it. this isn't a bad decision, it's just one that i ( and others with a similar mindset ) will dislike, which is okay- but likewise it's okay for myself ( and others ) to say that we won't like this change too- it's our honest feedback, after all

I wouldn’t mind if they did the changes differently for Defenders for guys like you. But yeah Blaster Sonic/ on live is one of the top 5 worst sets in the game 🙂 

[Gorgar]

2 hours ago, Carnifax said:

Overall a slight damage buff solo but the -Res nerf is going to make him much less useful on teams. So seems like a buff to Sonic Blasters and a nerf for Sonic Defenders (who picks Defenders for their damage output?) . 

 

Meh. 

 

Agreed.  My dark/sonic defender has more or less become my main, and this is overall not great for her.  I don't want to feel like I'm gimping myself for having Scream instead of Shout, when I am too busy with my primary to want to commit to a longer, higher damage, single-target attack on a defender.

[brattycommissar2]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

I wouldn’t mind if they did the changes differently for Defenders for guys like you. But yeah Blaster Sonic/ on live is one of the top 5 worst sets in the game 🙂 

i think if they just changed how they split the 20% into two parts with the sustained / refreshed and the stacking bits, to make the stacking able to go higher would do it tbh, even if it'd still reduce the ceiling for the -res of it in exchange for it being easier to hit the ceiling

[kelika2]

Please do not forget that 95% of the fights in this game do not last 20 seconds

Please do not forget that Archvillains sub50 generally do not post that much of a threat

Please do not forget that at 50+, hard targets get incarnated via pets and various other stuff

And most of all, please do not forget that -resist can be resisted if said target is higher than you.  I think.

 

I think everyone here is horrifically over estimating the value of (defender number) a Dual Origin Enhancements (12-15%) in the form of -resists

 

Yeah on live there was that one supergroup of all Sonic Attackers on Freedom who obliterated Incarnate content, but a Radi Emission group did that as well.  Those said, the only thing I dont really like is Howl's damage reduction.  But I am really looking forward to playing with the new Siren's Song because my sonic/sonic blaster currently was getting more milage out of Wall of Force from the mutation pool

 

---

 

Actually after posting I think there was also a sonic attack/radiation emission group who also did the same thing and introduced the world to the -resist cap

Edited July 13, 2022 by kelika2
---

[zuggo1]

Sentinels seem to be getting hit the hardest with these changes. The whole concept of the Sentinel is AoE, why would it get limited on that front? I can only hope that the people's input may inspire revisions.

Edited July 13, 2022 by zuggo1

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, zuggo1 said:

 The whole concept of the Sentinel is AoE

Uh, I don’t think you know Sentinels very well

[WindDemon21]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

Uh, I don’t think you know Sentinels very well

It may not be the concept, but I'll still die on the hill that 6 targets instead of 10 on the cones just feels GOD AWFUL and ruins a lot of good mitigation potential of ones like shockwave, energy torrent, umbral torrent etc.

[ScarySai]

I'd like shout to cast a bit faster or hit harder, still seems a bit too slow for it's output. Lacking a snipe, the set's only really quick and snappy heavy hitter is shriek.

Edited July 13, 2022 by ScarySai

[WindDemon21]

3 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I'd like shout to cast a bit faster or hit harder, still seems a bit too slow for it's output. Lacking a snipe, the set's only really quick and snappy heavy hitter is shriek.

Obvoiusly this would be for non-sentinels, but what about making Screech a snipe? Especially to use that 50% range buff to help extend the cones on blasters.

[RenownedGibberish]

So, full disclosure, I haven't tried it out yet, but the numbers definitely don't look great.

 

Previous to this change, stacking -80% resistance was not difficult, and -100% for a while after Dreadful Wail.

 

Now, we have -12%, non-stacking, plus 8% stacking depending on which powers one is using, up to another -40%, for a total of -52% (-44% without Wail).

 

Numbers-wise, that means a sonic defender is dealing only 55% of the debuffs (s)he was doing before (without Wail), or 52% with Wail.  Now, sure, you can up the DPS and lower the activation time (further increasing the DPS), but even adding 100% damage to all Sonic attacks barely makes up for the reduced debuff potential, and that's all talking about solo play.

 

Also, practically speaking, I feel like pushing people in the direction of taking specific powers over others is not an awesome design change; it might have been more helpful to enact something closer to the Water Blast system, where the sonic attacks build up, and eventually explode in some damage and the spread of the base debuff to nearby enemies, similar to Beam Rifle, which gives them more utility against groups.  Then again, that's more of a pain to implement.

 

On an eight-person team, a Sonic who can stack... for simplicity, let's say -100% resistance, because it makes the math easier, is doubling their allies damage.  Not 'increasing it by 100%' as a damage buff would do, but Doubling It.  Decreasing their resistance by 52% does multiply their damage by 1.52, but that is only about half as good as what Sonics could do before.  If we take the Kin/Sonic, who can cap everyone's damage... well, the numbers look even worse (relatively; there's still buffs happening, after all).  Suppose the Kin only doubles everyone's damage.  Now our Kin/Sonic is doubling base damage, and then reducing enemy resistance by 100%, which doubles it again, for a total of Four Times The Damage (4.0x).  With these changes, 1.52 becomes 3.04.  This is still not insignificant; actually, it's pretty great!  But it's nowhere near as good as they do now.

 

All of that said, just because a set is amazing doesn't mean it's fun to play, and even as amazing as Sonic is without these changes, it does seem (empyrically) like a relatively small percentage of Defenders and Corrupters use it.  So maybe I'll like it better, despite the apparent on-paper reduction in set power.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[brattycommissar2]

10 minutes ago, RenownedGibberish said:

So, full disclosure, I haven't tried it out yet, but the numbers definitely don't look great.

 

Previous to this change, stacking -80% resistance was not difficult, and -100% for a while after Dreadful Wail.

 

Now, we have -12%, non-stacking, plus 8% stacking depending on which powers one is using, up to another -40%, for a total of -52% (-44% without Wail).

 

Numbers-wise, that means a sonic defender is dealing only 55% of the debuffs (s)he was doing before (without Wail), or 52% with Wail.  Now, sure, you can up the DPS and lower the activation time (further increasing the DPS), but even adding 100% damage to all Sonic attacks barely makes up for the reduced debuff potential, and that's all talking about solo play.

 

Also, practically speaking, I feel like pushing people in the direction of taking specific powers over others is not an awesome design change; it might have been more helpful to enact something closer to the Water Blast system, where the sonic attacks build up, and eventually explode in some damage and the spread of the base debuff to nearby enemies, similar to Beam Rifle, which gives them more utility against groups.  Then again, that's more of a pain to implement.

 

On an eight-person team, a Sonic who can stack... for simplicity, let's say -100% resistance, because it makes the math easier, is doubling their allies damage.  Not 'increasing it by 100%' as a damage buff would do, but Doubling It.  Decreasing their resistance by 52% does multiply their damage by 1.52, but that is only about half as good as what Sonics could do before.  If we take the Kin/Sonic, who can cap everyone's damage... well, the numbers look even worse (relatively; there's still buffs happening, after all).  Suppose the Kin only doubles everyone's damage.  Now our Kin/Sonic is doubling base damage, and then reducing enemy resistance by 100%, which doubles it again, for a total of Four Times The Damage (4.0x).  With these changes, 1.52 becomes 3.04.  This is still not insignificant; actually, it's pretty great!  But it's nowhere near as good as they do now.

 

All of that said, just because a set is amazing doesn't mean it's fun to play, and even as amazing as Sonic is without these changes, it does seem (empyrically) like a relatively small percentage of Defenders and Corrupters use it.  So maybe I'll like it better, despite the apparent on-paper reduction in set power.

great post! i'm kinda surprised that sonic is so underutilized by support characters since it's what i use on defenders more than half the time- maybe even more than 75% of the time!

[Carnifax]

Just respeccing now and as it stands now the power order given the changes is very late for Defenders. Early level Sonic Blast defenders soloing will either need to respec at 35ish to re-optimise or struggle. 

 

 

Urrgh. Could be powers be rearranged to Shriek, Scream, Howl, Siren's. Shout, Amplify, Screech, Shockwave, Dreadful? At least it would give them something earlier on. 

[WindDemon21]

43 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

Urrgh. Could be powers be rearranged to Shriek, Scream, Howl, Siren's. Shout, Amplify, Screech, Shockwave, Dreadful? At least it would give them something earlier on. 

Do NOT put shockwave late lol. As stated it's key for those who know how to use it properly. Honestly, especially on defenders too I'd move aim to 35.

[BrandX]

6 hours ago, brattycommissar2 said:

it still does -res, it just does less, so it offers less support. will it solo better? definitely, but that's not my concern as stated

 

And I got that, but you're supporting more with the support set, not the blast set.

 

And you're killing things faster on the team with more damage

[Sovera]

4 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

It may not be the concept, but I'll still die on the hill that 6 targets instead of 10 on the cones just feels GOD AWFUL and ruins a lot of good mitigation potential of ones like shockwave, energy torrent, umbral torrent etc.

 

I suppose we can look at it under the prism that once an AT has used their Aim + Gaussian and their nuke most minions will be dead-ish leaving, in fact, 5-6 mobs left in the form of a few lieuts and bosses.

[brattycommissar2]

41 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

And I got that, but you're supporting more with the support set, not the blast set.

 

And you're killing things faster on the team with more damage

but i could support even more with what amounts to two support sets, the -res from it is particularly useful against hard targets with a team taking advantage of it compared to you doing a bit more damage but doing a good chunk less -res

[Galaxy Brain]

Alrighty, lets look at ye olde Sonic Attack at x8 difficulty:

 

Blaster - 0/8x difficulty, SO values, Primary Powers only:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And now, the beta build:

 

 

 

 

 

The DPA and Rech changes are no joke, going from the absolute worst to being the near mid-point is a big jump.

 

[brattycommissar2]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Alrighty, lets look at ye olde Sonic Attack at x8 difficulty:

 

Blaster - 0/8x difficulty, SO values, Primary Powers only:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And now, the beta build:

 

 

 

 

 

The DPA and Rech changes are no joke, going from the absolute worst to being the near mid-point is a big jump.

 

can you explain exactly what all you got going on in here for me? 0/x8 what? i'd love to understand what i'm looking at! thank you

[Galaxy Brain]

44 minutes ago, brattycommissar2 said:

can you explain exactly what all you got going on in here for me? 0/x8 what? i'd love to understand what i'm looking at! thank you

 

I have a long running test environment for comparing primary sets (So far for Melee [Scrappers], Ranged [Blasters], and Masterminds).  The goal is to test sets in a "mission" environment instead of a farm or pylon to get a more "average" performance benchmark.