The Pretty Good AE Debate

[ivanhedgehog]

The game has a system of rewards. It has been in place since the game was first written. Various critters of various levels have a value when defeated. Depending on your level is how much you get for defeating them. They dont reward anything if bypassed. Some of the people in this discussion want to try and balance based on the total sum of income of a player. Others understand that the game is balanced so that we get rewarded for what we defeat, no more no less. If player A defeats 10 bosses at level 54 while at level 50 they will get x inf and y xp. Player b defeats 20 bosses at level 54 while at level 50 and get 2x inf and 2y xp. This is in no way unfair. you get what you produce. changing this will not help the game. Should the game reward outcomes that do not include defeating enemies? Mission completion bonuses address this giving people playing in missions an edge. Trying to balance the game based on the location of the defeats would be a mess.

[flakoff]

I'm not against farming, but the problem now is people log in at lvl 1 and instantly ask for a farm.

I don't have the answer, but the game is really not being played anymore. 

Farm to 50, farm to open incarnates, farm to get threads.

Then what? Show off shiney new toon that you got for free?

 

[kelika2]

On 7/19/2022 at 3:04 AM, MoonSheep said:

what a shame - surely if we took away many players carrot on a stick they surely will flock to other parts of the game and not leave to one of the dozens if not millions of other things to do on the internet

thats not how masses work

[blue4333]

Gatekeeping is not how we should look at AE Farming.

 

This is a game surviving on a private server run by volunteers. There are no leaderboards, no achievements (e.g. WoW's First Clear in Dungeon/Raid), there are no P2W options and there is no subscription needed to play the game. Thus, your time and effort spent in this game has no more value than what other people spend in this game. 

 

People are just nitpicking against AE Farmers for no reason, other than trying to be "nostalgic" - oh we must stick to running contact missions and street sweeping. Look, just play the way you want and stop gatekeeping. If people want to be AE Babies, then that's their choice, their time spent in AE does not harm you or give them an advantage towards whatever arbitrary goals you guys have by playing the "normal way"

Edited July 23, 2022 by blue4333

[Troo]

Ultima Online (UO) released 1997 https://uo.com/

Time designated it as one of the 100 greatest video games of all time in November 2012

 

25 years non-stop.

 

"The following are actions taken on accounts that were either banned or suspended during the month of June: (6/20)

• 59 -  Macroing 
• 3 -    Solicitation
• 29 -  Multiboxing
• 7 -    Naming Violation
• 5 -    Disruptive Behavior
• 2 - Third party program use
• 6 - Game Anomaly Exploit
• 1 - Abuse of Game Mechanics
• 2 - Solicitation"

Maybe, just maybe one reason it is still around is that players have to play the game to advance in it.

I'm not saying we need to be them.

I have no problem with folks casually PLing a character from time to time.

I do have a problem with exploits. Sometimes we do something not thinking it is exploitative, those cases should be easily addressed and have the exploit fixed. 

 

AE is potentially the greatest asset CoX has.

Want to play a Dynasty Warrior style AE mission? I think that's a good thing.

Just don't expect 10x rewards & exp for a fraction of effort. Being efficient and effective are different than simply taking advantage.

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Troo

[flakoff]

16 minutes ago, blue4333 said:

Gatekeeping is not how we should look at AE Farming.

 

This is a game surviving on a private server run by volunteers. There is no leaderboards, no achievements (e.g. WoW's First Clear in Dungeon/Raid), there are no P2W options and there is no subscription needed to play the game. Thus, your time and effort spent in this game has no more value than what other people spend in this game. 

 

People are just nitpicking against AE Farmers for no reason, other than trying to be "nostalgic" - oh we must stick to running contact missions and street sweeping. Look, just play the way you want and stop gatekeeping. If people want to be AE Babies, then that's their choice, their time spent in AE does not harm you or give them an advantage towards whatever arbitrary goals you guys have by playing the "normal way"

But getting it all so fast will not retain players, they will eventually become bored and leave.

Coh was great for a reason,  teaming and enjoying the lore and the feeling of achievement when 50.

[MoonSheep]

12 minutes ago, Troo said:

Ultima Online (UO) released 1997 https://uo.com/

Time designated it as one of the 100 greatest video games of all time in November 2012

 

25 years non-stop.

 

"The following are actions taken on accounts that were either banned or suspended during the month of June: (6/20)

• 59 -  Macroing 
• 3 -    Solicitation
• 29 -  Multiboxing
• 7 -    Naming Violation
• 5 -    Disruptive Behavior
• 2 - Third party program use
• 6 - Game Anomaly Exploit
• 1 - Abuse of Game Mechanics
• 2 - Solicitation"

Maybe, just maybe one reason it is still around is that players have to play the game to advance in it.

I'm not saying we need to be them.

I have no problem with folks casually PLing a character from time to time.

I do have a problem with exploits. Sometimes we do something not thinking it is exploitative, those cases should be easily addressed and have the exploit fixed. 

 

AE is potentially the greatest asset CoX has.

Want to play a Dynasty Warrior style AE mission? I think that's a good thing.

Just don't expect 10x rewards & exp for a fraction of effort. Being efficient and effective are different than simply taking advantage.

 

 

you’re able to articulate many of the points i don’t have the eloquence for, troo

 

in my view, if the end goal can be easily achieved, the novelty of the game wears off quickly and people leave. the game experience of reward and achievement for the non-farming playerbase are impacted as end objectives are essentially meaningless when the game is auto-win

 

i am hugely supportive of progressively numerous mass waves in AE or at the end of certain TFs where thematically sensible, sometimes it’s good fun for a chaos slay fest

 

AE farms in their current form though are quite clearly an exploit and are outside of the standard game mechanics of effort vs reward - especially now that accounts are free and you can quad/quintbox your way to riches

[MoonSheep]

48 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

thats not how masses work

 

not sure that’s how quoting works either mate but well done for trying 

[blue4333]

8 minutes ago, flakoff said:

But getting it all so fast will not retain players, they will eventually become bored and leave.

Coh was great for a reason,  teaming and enjoying the lore and the feeling of achievement when 50.

 

More power to you if you enjoy the lore and teaming in COH but is there really a point in retaining people who just want to get to 50 and move on to another game? They are probably not the right target audience then.

[ShardWarrior]

2 hours ago, flakoff said:

But getting it all so fast will not retain players, they will eventually become bored and leave.

Coh was great for a reason,  teaming and enjoying the lore and the feeling of achievement when 50.

 

This is unequivocally false.  All veterans posting here in these forums and playing the game have been here going on 18+ years.  We are still playing.  A great many of us will be here until the server collapses or the world ends, whichever comes first.  We have not gotten bored and left.  There is absolutely positively no reason whatsoever to falsely believe there are not others who will feel exactly the same.  The game could be altered to make your every wish come true and there will still be people who will come and go.

 

As for what makes CoH great, there are many different reasons for many different people.  Please stop judging others on what brings them joy and what they should or should not enjoy in playing the game.  There is no right or wrong way to play. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by ShardWarrior

[cranebump]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

As for what makes CoH great, there are many different reasons for many different people.  Please stop judging others on what brings them joy and what they should or should not enjoy in playing the game.  There is no right or wrong way to play. 

This is true. But, supposing we get more new players, how many of them will want to start out grinding along the story route, either soloing or on teams? Especially when they can just hop over, race up the levels, and, in doing so, bypass not only the content, but that playstyle? Bear in mind, I'm not advocating getting rid of AE farms, but I would like a new player to experience at least some of the game the way it was (semi) originally presented. I DO side with those who argue that there's a greater  level (and feel) of achievement by making your way up the ladder without farming or buffing XP gains. At the same time, I'm not advocating it be the enforced norm for all players. But general observation seems to show that the default mode is speeding up the level ladder without seeing much of the overall game. For a vet who's seen it and done it all, no bigs. For someone who hasn't, it does bother me that their impression of the game might be that it's nothing but fast running to 50. No way to return to the past, of course, but some sort of bow to it would be nice somewhere.

 

Honestly, I'm on the fence about things like this. I want the hobbies and pastimes I've loved to stay relevant and fresh. D&D, Star Trek, Baseball, Super Hero Comics [genre in general], and, of course, CoX. But I cringe at times at the impressions those new to them get, based on some of the changes chosen. Things must evolve, to be sure. But fixing what ain't always broken leads to...I dunno, a really weird machine?  

 

This is what happens as you age, I suppose.

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by cranebump

[ShardWarrior]

9 minutes ago, cranebump said:

But, supposing we get more new players, how many of them will want to start out grinding along the story route, either soloing or on teams?

 

You are making a rather large assumption any new players if they do find the game will not want to play through the story.  It is much, much better to let people decide for themselves what is and is not fun for them personally.  If a new player wants to team up, solo, play through the story or hop in an AE farm, more power to them.  That is the beauty of what we have here.  There is something for everyone.  Stop worrying so much about what new players may or may not do and let them make up their own mind.  Focus on what you find fun and stick to that. 

[cranebump]

15 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

You are making a rather large assumption any new players if they do find the game will not want to play through the story.  It is much, much better to let people decide for themselves what is and is not fun for them personally.  If a new player wants to team up, solo, play through the story or hop in an AE farm, more power to them.  That is the beauty of what we have here.  There is something for everyone.  Stop worrying so much about what new players may or may not do and let them make up their own mind.  Focus on what you find fun and stick to that. 

And you're assuming that, when a new player hits Excel, the most populated server, and all they see are farm requests, TF spams and the like, creating the impression that this is the default mode of play, that that has no effect on their initial choice. I'm all for people making up their own mind, shopping around, as it were. But, if someone goes  to the store and 90% of the shelves feature the same or similar products, why should they bother exploring anything else? (especially if they can be rewarded for simply standing around)

 

I'm not asking that my views or game mode become default. I'm saying that the default game has value, and I think it would be worth it for anyone just coming to the game to see that. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by cranebump

[ShardWarrior]

20 minutes ago, cranebump said:

And you're assuming that, when a new player hits Excel, the most populated server, and all they see are farm requests, TF spams and the like, creating the impression that this is the default mode of play, that that has no effect on their initial choice.

 

Well no, I said absolutely nothing even remotely of the sort.  Again, you are making assumptions about what a potential new player may or may not do.

[cranebump]

6 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

Well no, I said absolutely nothing even remotely of the sort.  Again, you are making assumptions about what a potential new player may or may not do.

Noted. Apologies. You didn't say that. But it seems like you're assuming a current new player is going to be unaffected (or less affected) in their initial choices by current conditions, while I feel they are. And, let's be clear - assumptions, which form the bedrock of our views, are often unstated.

 

In any case, I'll withdraw the verbiage above, and attempt to just reframe what I was saying. Not really looking to argue. Just want to be clear about my own reactions (and, yes, assumptions).

 

I feel like, were I just coming to the game, and starting where a majority of players are (Excel), that my perception of the game's current default mode (which really does appear to be farms and TF's) is pretty much SOP. And it would seem like, since the typical rewards are easier to attain, I feel like it wouldn't be long before I embraced those procedures, thus skipping the default mode.

 

Now, would I eventually tire of that, try other things? I honestly don't know. I knew the game from before. When returning via HC, I started on Indom, since it was less populated, but then moved to Excel because there was more teaming there. Having gotten a few 50s, doing a small amount of incarnating, as well as numerous TF's and even some small amount of farming, I've since returned to more trad play, and found there's a lot of game there that I'd been ignoring that is pretty damned good, despite its age. Part of my motivation to re-explore trad play was to experience a different mode and challenge. Another part was to educate myself on the lore and storylines, so that I could mine them for possible lore-related SFMA story arcs I could write. Along the way, I have developed a fondness for those stories, warts and all. To me, it's a pity that all that seems to be getting ignored. I understand why a vet player might do so, particularly if their goal is just pushing the numbers, building for endgame, or just feeling godlike (which has been a thing for gamers since the days of only tabletop). That's a thing, too. Not mine, but it's no issue for me if it's anyone else's.

 

Basically, I feel it would be worth it for a new player to experience more of the basic game before deciding what's worth their time. I know we can accommodate all modes of play. And I don't care if a newb starts one place and ends another. I just perceive the story-focused approach is dying, and Iament that. CoX is more than just a build engine to me.  I feel like a new player would see that, too, provided they get to it...sometime.

 

But, well, you're right - I really don't know what the new player experience is like right now, whether they're actually exploring the game, or just grabbing quick levels. No one does. Perhaps it'd be best to just ask a newb. If I knew any, I would. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by cranebump

[battlewraith]

5 hours ago, Troo said:

Maybe, just maybe one reason it is still around is that players have to play the game to advance in it.

 

A quick google search indicated that Ultima Online has less than half the player base of Homecoming. Maybe if the devs take a more hardline approach to advancement, we can successfully reach those numbers as well.

[Bionic_Flea]

How long should it take to get a new character to 50?  Or to T4 incarnates?

 

How much influence should I be able to make just leaving a character idle?

 

Assuming that fire-farming should give the best rewards, how much better should it be relative to other content?  The same, twice as good?  Ten times as good?  More?

[ShardWarrior]

31 minutes ago, cranebump said:

Noted. Apologies. You didn't say that. But it seems like you're assuming a current new player is going to be unaffected (or less affected) in their initial choices by current conditions, while I feel they are. In any case. And, let's be clear - assumptions, which form the bedrock of our views, are often unstated.

 

Fair enough and no apology necessary.  Everyone has views and opinions that are shaped by their own biases.  We all could come up with fantasy "what about this" scenarios of what a new player may or may not do.  Best to leave the decision on what is best for them up to those unique individuals.  I like the believe they are smart enough to find their own way and make their own decisions. 

[cranebump]

2 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

Fair enough and no apology necessary.  Everyone has views and opinions that are shaped by their own biases.  We all could come up with fantasy "what about this" scenarios of what a new player may or may not do.  Best to leave the decision on what is best for them up to those unique individuals.  I like the believe they are smart enough to find their own way and make their own decisions. 

Agreed. I hope we can get good people and keep them. 

[UltraAlt]

9 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

This sentence materially states that current AE rewards should be the Norm, regarding return on investment, and that all other content is underperforming for "a lot" of people.

 

The AE isn't the game. The AE was added to the game.

The standard for rewards should be the reward level set in the standard game content and not based on Fire Farming.

 

And AE content is obviously surpassing the rewards gained for standard game content and that's why the rewards for AE need to be reduced for AE content that is built to abuse the system. And that is exactly what Farming in the AE is has been the whole time - creating and running missions to gain better rewards than the AE was intended to reward.

[UltraAlt]

On 7/23/2022 at 3:58 AM, blue4333 said:

their time spent in AE does not harm you or give them an advantage towards whatever arbitrary goals you guys have by playing the "normal way"

 

This is not entirely true.

Someone that power-levels to 50 by doorsitting (and not playing the game to get there) feels a sense of superiority of those that are not level 50.

Often times I have seen the bad behavior of level 50s that were most probably power-leveled to 50.

 

People that have actually leveled to 50 know what it is like to be leveling up a character through lower level content.

They know what it is like to have someone that is 50 come in and ruin the enjoyability of lower level missions. And that happens far too often.

 

I don't farm, but make a huge amount of influence off farmers.

I can't stop them from farming.

They can't stop me from taking their influence from them.

 

 

I'm not spamming in /LFG all day that I'm taking their influence from them, but I sure have to see all that Farm and doorsitter spam.

 

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by UltraAlt

[zenijos10]

I’m seeing arguments about whether people who powerlevel 1-50 play a lot. Most arguments are based on personal preference, anecdotes, and arguments stemming from those preferences and anecdotes.  I wonder what kind of statistics are available to get actual data.  

 

• How many characters level to 50 primarily in AE missions?
• How many leveled In less than x hour played?
• For those characters, how many played other content after getting to 50?
• How many players, after leveling to 50 in AE, did it again? How many times?
• Same for non AE?
• What percentage of total content played is played inside architect?
• What percentage of total influenced generated comes from AE?

Devs, can we get access to the raw data (tableau, grafana, etc) to do our own analysis to get the bottom of some of the arguments on the forums? 

Edited July 23, 2022 by zenijos10

[SwitchFade]

@UltraAlt fun, yes?

 

 

[SwitchFade]

9 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

Honestly not trying to be insulting, but your use of English here is so tortured that I wonder if you just don't understand the gist of what I've been saying. My motive is

to comment on this discussion. I just think the proposed changes won't bring any real benefit and will piss people off. My farmers are built and I spend more time running Itrials than farms anyway.

 

 

It doesn't matter whether you think it should have been allowed or not. It WAS allowed. And changing things now, if that actually happens, will have consequences for this gradually dwindling population. Your personal GAME BALANCE PHILOSOPHY disagrees with what I said. Fine, whatever. You think my opinion is immaterial and I think you're analysis is irrelevant to the actual situation at hand.

 

 

*shudders*

@jubakumbi is that you?!

 

🤣😂😆😅

[arcane]

Now that the reality denying crew has taken over the thread with notions like “no evidence game balance is a good thing”, really zero chance fruitful conversation will occur from here. Thread: sunk.

Edited July 23, 2022 by arcane