The Pretty Good AE Debate

[cranebump]

24 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Since you brought chess up, as an analogy, the way I interpret your words, you don't see the beauty of someone being aggressive and castling to the queen side while strategically advancing certain pawns from the King's side to crush your king, with support from the knight and king side bishop. You think everyone should use the king's pawn opening. I mean, any other opening would lead to difficulty in bringing out the queen and king side bishop. So that opening is the way the game should be played! 

 

I'm thinking someone who is adamantly anti-farm/multibox/whatever-isn't-traditional doesn't see these things as merely using a hypermodern opening, but rather they see such things as  analogous to adding pieces to the board prior to play, leading to a much easier checkmate (to the point, I suppose, that playing the entire game is moot). Like a player is breaking the rules to achieve victory or something. The notion seems to be that Coh's "board and pieces" are (or should be) fixed, so that, whether playing trad or 960, it's always the same basic composition. In this context, their argument would be, you're introducing elements that don't belong in the game. Get those extra Queens outta here!

 

Thing is, though, since all that everyone does is doable within the confines of the game (its "rules and board"), and players themselves are simply using what's there, the argument doesn't apply. Further, whatever it is that constitutes checkmate is variable, as well. The engine does what it's designed to do. Players decide what challenges they want to face, at whatever level of difficulty (or ease) they want. The only thing everyone gets is the same passel of rewards, some of which some players never even bother to pursue (while other rewards, some players pursue with laser-like precision).

 

What they're asking, as Ukase and others have pretty much stated, is to enforce one victory condition, independent of the freedom the game allows. My only response to this is careful what you wish for. 

[Grouchybeast]

6 hours ago, FoxyPrime said:

As things are now, I keep seeing consistent prices for everything, so I'm not sure if inflation is an issue. If it does become one, however, I also don't think trying to delay it will fix it, or if it's worth combating it at the expense of the rest of the game. 

 

A while back, AH prices were trending upwards.  The devs could have shrugged, said oh, well, there's nothing we can do to combat inflation in an MMO, it's inevitable, and done nothing.  Instead they made a tweaked ratio of inf to drops by removing the XP-to-inf mechanic from turning off XP, which also removed a related AE exploit.  There was a lot of drama on the forums and predictions of doom in every direction, but the actual outcome was the prices did stabilise, farmers kept farming, marketeers kept marketing, and everything was fine.  So the regime of small, targeted adjustments seems to be going pretty well so far.

[Ukase]

21 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

 

A while back, AH prices were trending upwards.  The devs could have shrugged, said oh, well, there's nothing we can do to combat inflation in an MMO, it's inevitable, and done nothing.  Instead they made a tweaked ratio of inf to drops by removing the XP-to-inf mechanic from turning off XP, which also removed a related AE exploit.  There was a lot of drama on the forums and predictions of doom in every direction, but the actual outcome was the prices did stabilise, farmers kept farming, marketeers kept marketing, and everything was fine.  So the regime of small, targeted adjustments seems to be going pretty well so far.

Anecdotally, I don't recall anything getting more expensive or trending upwards before that patch. I've seen it mentioned, or even I brought it up, that we ought to have a market index to track such things - Price of Apocalypse:Damage, Luck of the Gambler Defense/7.5% recharge, Celerity:stealth, Panacea +hitpoints/Endurance - track the last 5 at a specific time each day, or a given day of the week, and have it be used like the Dow Jones Industrial Average. 

Obviously, more IOs could be added to those, that's just an example. It could help display how prices are trending up or down. 


So..my "experience" with that adjustment was bittersweet. The IOs I had for sale after that patch hit took quite some time to sell, because prices dropped for the items I was selling a fair amount  - like 1M less than they were immediately prior to that patch. 
That was the bitter part. 

The sweet part is my stack of influence then goes farther; which I'm all for. The cheaper things are, the less I feel like I need to farm. (at least, that's my takeaway from that "nerf/adjustment"). 

I am never a fan of change, even if it's for the better. But, in the case of the HC devs, catering to a smaller playerbase isn't going to be the same as when the Paragon devs needed to adjust to a subscription base approaching 200K. There's probably not any set rules, and they're probably figuring some things out as they go. I'm okay with that, as long as they can make a habit of explaining the thinking behind certain decisions. In some cases, we might be able to point out different solutions, or different perspectives. But, they, and me, and the rest of us, we all have to try to be open to the idea we may be wrong in our thinking and change when things do go the way we thought they might. 

[Bionic_Flea]

26 minutes ago, Ukase said:

that we ought to have a market index to track such things

The Yomo Jones Industrial Average?

[Black Zot]

3 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

The Yomo Jones Industrial Average?

 

The NASDORQ?

[Yomo Kimyata]

10 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

The Yomo Jones Industrial Average?

 

Who is this Jones dumbass?

 

 

6 hours ago, Black Zot said:

 

The NASDORQ?

 

Guilty as charged.

 

Market indexes are worthless in this game, because prices are made by the buyers.  I could make every single Trap of the Hunter IO trade north of 10mm for the next few years, but why?  There are very few macro trends that markedly affect the sellers of finished goods.  If it costs too much for you to buy right now, you can wait for someone else to offer it cheaper, you can make it yourself, you can blah blah blah.  There's maybe 10k active accounts nowadays.  That's hardly an "economy".

[Akisan]

14 hours ago, Ukase said:

Anecdotally, I don't recall anything getting more expensive or trending upwards before that patch. I've seen it mentioned, or even I brought it up, that we ought to have a market index to track such things - Price of Apocalypse:Damage, Luck of the Gambler Defense/7.5% recharge, Celerity:stealth, Panacea +hitpoints/Endurance - track the last 5 at a specific time each day, or a given day of the week, and have it be used like the Dow Jones Industrial Average. 

Obviously, more IOs could be added to those, that's just an example. It could help display how prices are trending up or down.

 

Those IO prices are usually pretty stable - largely due to Marketers keeping a steady supply in place.  I'd be more interested in comparing their relative prices against the aggregate price of the "trash" IOs that are being flipped, as I'm pretty sure those are the supply buffer keeping Wentworth's afloat (along with converters.  So many, many converters).

[Astralock]

On 8/11/2022 at 9:54 AM, Ukase said:

The HC devs have already throttled down the farmer's earnings. And yet, still some of you cry for "less, less, less". A very few of you will not be happy until every farmer has left. 

To those people, I present to you Rebirth. There are no vet levels. The slog of a grind on the incarnate path is very real for the solo player. Even doing Dark Astoria arcs will not help you much. You basically must do iTrials there. And it's quite cozy. Once you play there, you are essentially going to be teaming with the same people, day in, day out. It's like one big (but small) SG. They are all extremely competent, and they love to mock us as impatient, lazy children. They like to grind for it. And I've tried AFK farming there, and have not done so well. 
There is no spines/fire combo. There is rad/fire, so I've got one in the works, grinding it up old school style. But, converters are hard to come by as they're not tradeable. You can get them randomly - maybe 20 on your journey from 1-50 will drop. Or you can buy them at 5 reward merits for 1, and pay 25K for the exchange. 

Yes, the anti-farmer should go to Rebirth. You will like the grind, the different ATs and powersets. The only thing you won't like is at peak times, you might get 100 players. I doubt it, but you might. And because of that, most of you won't go where other like-minded players are. You'll stay here and try to drag the rest of us, kicking and screaming out of the farm and into your bloody mainstream content, with your "You'll play it my way and like it" attitude. 

Good luck with that. 

 

On 8/13/2022 at 10:45 PM, Ukase said:

Who in the blue F*** do you think you are, talking to someone that way? Shame on you! 

You've basically stated that anyone who solos should just quit the game. Screw you and the holier-than-thou boat you came in on! 

I just can't believe you would state that for all to see. That's seriously disgusting! Consider the taste slapped out the mouth of your avatar! 

See, I was going to leave, but just for that, I'm staying! 

So, telling people who are anti-AE farming to leave Homecoming and play elsewhere is just fine, but telling people that prefer to play solo that there are better video games for that is unacceptable.  Got it.

 

Things that make you go, “Hmm.”

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, Astralock said:

So, telling people who are anti-AE farming to leave Homecoming and play elsewhere is just fine, but telling people that prefer to play solo that there are better video games for that is unacceptable.  Got it.

Got it? Good! 

 

In all seriousness, consider this a mea culpa. I was a hypocrite. If you hadn't quoted it, I wouldn't have remembered saying it. 

Still, you should acknowledge your own error. 

I never said I solo all the time, but I solo a lot. Running off to some other game that I never heard of is an unacceptable solution to me, particularly when I don't see a problem. You are one who seems to believe that solo players and/or farmers are having a negative impact on the game. There is no evidence of this, but that's what I get from reading your comments. If you believe differently, perhaps you may enlighten us. 

[tidge]

On 8/14/2022 at 9:45 AM, biostem said:

 Similarly, many people simply don't want to involve others in the IO or auction house meta aspects of the game, choosing to instead enjoy the fruits of that labor in the aforementioned trials, TFs, or other post-50 content.  Finally, there are many ways to play chess without any other people involved, as well as there being ways to tailor the challenge level.  Heck, even at the more advanced levels, chess has undergone many changes that weren't in place when the game was in its infancy.

 

I just paused to write that while skimming this thread, I had to reread this post because my tired eyes told me I was reading about using Kora Fruit to invade the Auction House to challenge the Tailor.

[tidge]

On 8/15/2022 at 3:30 AM, Yomo Kimyata said:

I could make every single Trap of the Hunter IO trade north of 10mm for the next few years, but why? 

 

 

 

[Ukase]

On 8/15/2022 at 2:30 AM, Yomo Kimyata said:

I could make every single Trap of the Hunter IO trade north of 10mm for the next few years, but why? 

I think you're exaggerating a bit. Because I know that you know anyone could just take any uncommon or rare IO and blow converters to convert into the Crap of the Hunter simply and easily. (and of course, the same "why" question would follow.) 

Perhaps "why not?" is a better question. With a better answer. 

And I will add, I'm not replying to your comment in context - just this little bit of it. Overall, I think you and I are mostly on the same page. 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Ukase

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 hours ago, Ukase said:

I think you're exaggerating a bit. Because I know that you know anyone could just take any uncommon or rare IO and blow converters to convert into the Crap of the Hunter simply and easily. (and of course, the same "why" question would follow.) 

Perhaps "why not?" is a better question. With a better answer. 

And I will add, I'm not replying to your comment in context - just this little bit of it. Overall, I think you and I are mostly on the same page. 

 

Don't be silly, of course I could.

 

But it doesn't serve any purpose.  It would involve a large commitment of time and inf, and would lose lots of money.  It wouldn't break the system.

 

It's very amusing to read all these doomsayers, both pro and anti farming.  Farming is irrelevant.  It is literally a rounding error.  The real danger to HC's /AH over the next few years is that people will lose confidence in it and just stop using it and again start complaining why they cannot buy common salvage for 5 inf while they are selling it for 1000.  I'll be long gone by then.

[Ukase]

5 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

people will lose confidence in it and just stop using it and again start complaining why they cannot buy common salvage for 5 inf while they are selling it for 1000.  I'll be long gone by then.

Oh my...that's so...interesting, and likely true. 

 

[America's Angel]

4 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Farming is irrelevant.  It is literally a rounding error.

 

Who are you talking to right now? Who is it you think you see? Do you know how much I make a year? I mean, even if I told you, you wouldn't believe it. Do you know what would happen if I suddenly decided to stop farming? A supergroup big enough that it could be its own server goes belly up. Disappears! It ceases to exist without me. No, you clearly don't know who you're talking to, so let me clue you in. I am not a drop in the ocean, Yomoler. I am the ocean. A player makes 1mil a minute with a "farm fresh" build and you think that of me? No. I am the one who procs!

[arcane]

23 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

 

Who are you talking to right now? Who is it you think you see? Do you know how much I make a year? I mean, even if I told you, you wouldn't believe it. Do you know what would happen if I suddenly decided to stop farming? A supergroup big enough that it could be its own server goes belly up. Disappears! It ceases to exist without me. No, you clearly don't know who you're talking to, so let me clue you in. I am not a drop in the ocean, Yomoler. I am the ocean. A player makes 1mil a minute with a "farm fresh" build and you think that of me? No. I am the one who procs!

“Say my name.”
“You’re Angelberg.” 
“You’re god damn right.”

[Cobalt Azurean]

We've gone from drama to melodrama.

It's like going to plaid, only less humorous.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Cobalt Azurean

[ivanhedgehog]

4 hours ago, Cobalt Azurean said:

We've gone from drama to melodrama.

It's like going to plaid, only less humorous.

Well plaid!