ITF Hard Mode recommendations

[PLVRIZR]

1 minute ago, siran said:

I'm going to prefix this with 'I've not tried hard mode yet'. I do get it is hard mode, especially after reading this thread

 

My question: will dark armor work. I have found in normal content that Dark Armor is superb. I can cap the defences (normal content), cap most resists (even energy with the P2W Kinetic armor if I really need to, which I hardly ever do), the best heal in the game (total heal every 10 seconds or so) and level 4 stuns AOE all the time (paired with super str, stone or electric melee)

 

 On normal +4x8 ITF these guys usually don't loose any hps, and if they do the total heal every 10 seconds or so helps a lot. Of course they don't have any DDR which a lot of this thread has been about... but I find after a handclap and an oppressive gloom most things aren't hitting me any (on normal difficulty) . Clearly EBs and AVs are not in the 'most things'.... but that heal helps a lot.

 

Is the hard mode such that 'it's all about the DDR?' at the highest level of difficulties?

 

 

Easy to test yourself, now that it's live.  Set your diff to +1/8 and start an ITF on 1-star, "Tenacious", solo.  herd a couple mobs and that will tell you how it's going to go.  No issues, lather, rinse, repeat on 2-star. 

[Uun]

6 minutes ago, siran said:

I'm going to prefix this with 'I've not tried hard mode yet'. I do get it is hard mode, especially after reading this thread

 

My question: will dark armor work. I have found in normal content that Dark Armor is superb. I can cap the defences (normal content), cap most resists (even energy with the P2W Kinetic armor if I really need to, which I hardly ever do), the best heal in the game (total heal every 10 seconds or so) and level 4 stuns AOE all the time (paired with super str, stone or electric melee)

 

 On normal +4x8 ITF these guys usually don't loose any hps, and if they do the total heal every 10 seconds or so helps a lot. Of course they don't have any DDR which a lot of this thread has been about... but I find after a handclap and an oppressive gloom most things aren't hitting me any (on normal difficulty) . Clearly EBs and AVs are not in the 'most things'.... but that heal helps a lot.

 

Edit: oh and soul transfer is great for standing up quickly if you do fall over.  (as the previous post said about Rise of the Phoneix) But I've only used it once or so every 50 veteran levels... I suspect I will use it more now...

 

Is the hard mode such that 'it's all about the DDR?' at the highest level of difficulties?

See my post about 5 up from yours. My Dark/Dark held up very well on a 3-star run. Capped resists go a long way toward mitigating defense debuffs. Also, most of the damage is S/L and N, which is right up Dark's alley.

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 hours ago, Mezmera said:

Battle Agility DDR is enhanceable, I have 71.5% defense enhancement in it running Agility Alpha.  I also don't use Ageless to get there, I just take all the powers in Shield that provide DDR.

 

Ok, gotcha. I missed the Agility Alpha mention. Side note: doesn't look like Mids picks up the enhanced buff from Agility for DDR even though MRA defense all spikes by nearly 5%.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[siran]

Thanks for the advice. I will indeed give it a go 🙂

 

Time to start experimenting with each tank primary I think

 

 

[siran]

Well I gave it a go at 2 stars. I foolishly tried a VEAT rather than a tanker. Vet level 160 and never dies on normal content. Can solo +4x8 ITF. So I thought she would be tough. 

 

I think I died over 20 times... Some of them I still don't know how or why.  I couldn't get within a few feet of romulus even when 85% resists and def >100. Just 'smash' and down.  In the end just hover and ranged attacks.  Still we got to the end and bashed the (much tougher and much cooler romulus)  into next centurty. Next time I'll try dark/ma tank and see how that goes.

 

 

[Uun]

4 minutes ago, siran said:

I couldn't get within a few feet of romulus even when 85% resists and def >100. Just 'smash' and down. 

Rommie's void attack is autohit and instadeath. When the warning text comes up, you need to kite.

[PLVRIZR]

3 hours ago, siran said:

Still we got to the end and bashed the (much tougher and much cooler romulus)  into next centurty. Next time I'll try dark/ma tank and see how that goes.

 

 

 

What Destiny do you run, on that toon?  What other Destinies or buffs did the rest of the team bring?

[siran]

It was a PUG and very disorganised. Splitting two or three ways sometimes. I took ageless at first(as a fortuanata I don't normally get hit much so just wanted DDR) but changed to a T4 barrier second mission onwards. For the rezzs as much as anything... . I saw some rebirths go of and at least one other person had barrier

 

I changed judgement to void with half damage as well (basically trying everything) 

 

Mostly though she didn't have enough hps. Even at 85 smashing and negative resist in melee with romulus she got blasted. Not talking about the voids... Just melee. The judgements got me two or three times but I think I understand them now) 

 

Next experiments... 

Dark/super str

Stone/super str

 

Super Str for the rage and the bouncing... The first tank stacks a lot of stunning the second bounces more. Usually the dark is tougher than stone (the heal... So very very good) but I think DDR is important. Kiting the voids might be interesting with stone/ but a teleport macro should do the trick I think (GET ME OUT OF HERE). I use that with the blue patches of doom fighting battle maiden.. And mostly it works

 

 

[thunder_crane]

On 8/24/2022 at 8:24 PM, Tsuko said:

Defence is for teenage gurl : this build can free the 4 stars oracles solo

 

Is this essentially a modified aprocalypse build? Noticed there's probably no cross punch spam opportunity here, but why not load up haymaker or KO blow with the winter set absorb proc for extra def? 

[Tsuko]

4 hours ago, thunder_crane said:

 

Is this essentially a modified aprocalypse build? Noticed there's probably no cross punch spam opportunity here, but why not load up haymaker or KO blow with the winter set absorb proc for extra def? 

cause imho 🙂 Def is useless if you cannot cap your DDR, at least with Ageless radial : taunt aside, this build is mainly for solo purpose 🙂 

 

But even in a premade team, when a tank is sure to be able to stay alive, Tanks have the duty to do more damage too.

[thunder_crane]

1 hour ago, Tsuko said:

cause imho 🙂 Def is useless if you cannot cap your DDR, at least with Ageless radial : taunt aside, this build is mainly for solo purpose 🙂 

 

But even in a premade team, when a tank is sure to be able to stay alive, Tanks have the duty to do more damage too.

 

Have you taken it through trapdoor just to see how it compares on the damage side? i

 

Also you mentioned it does first mission solo for 4itf. What about the second?

Edited September 6, 2022 by thunder_crane

[BurningDezire]

Outside of Stone Armor, SD/DM seems to be a popular combo. That being said, has anyone tried SR/ICE? I love ice powers, especially Ice Patch. Over capped defenses with Ice Patch seems like it would do well in HM ITFs, no? I know Ice doesn't have a heal, but I've played too many DM toons at this point and have had my fill!

Edited September 10, 2022 by BurningDezire

[Sanguinesun]

On 8/23/2022 at 4:48 AM, Linea said:

I'd put DarkM and SS at the top of the list for +to-hit reasons.   SS for Soft-Control, but that will be severely curtailed in 4-star where all mobs get at least some KB protection.   DarkM and RadM for self-heal. 

 

Then combine that with

and given that defense buffs are most common, that in turn puts Inv/ and Granite/, most likely with DarkM, in a really good place for 4-Star.

 

But I'm also still very fond of my SD/ ... ASSUMING ... I get defense buffs on the team.  Which does tend to happen most of the time, but NOT always.

 

Why did I give granite a +?   Because it's just so much easier to build.  But that ease does indeed come with a cost as well.

 

• SD/DarkM for most teams, but requires at least minimal defense buffs, and resists buffs are also welcome.
• Granite/DarkM for those teams with the worst or least buffs.  This is probably the random team pot luck build.
• Inv/DarkM or Inv/SS for for the more well rounded but also more average teams.
•  RadA/SS  for the better balanced teams.  Here I can leverage the most taunting and aoe capabilities while also having the longest spike damage survival time to allow the otherwise well balanced team to compensate for any issues on the extreme high end.   The best balance for the team as a whole is not necessarily the best balance for the tank as an individual.  But unbreakable resists with nearly best in class absorbs and heals gives you and the team both a lot of room to compensate for issues.

I think that once teams get more familiar with the content, and stop making stupid mistakes like wanting to join a 4-star run with a level 35, this will eventually translate to a fair bit of jockeying for position between Inv/SS and RadA/SS depending on the team in question.

 

Over time the ASF has definitely been trending more toward the RadA/SS and similar builds.  More team oriented, and less solo oriented.

But I also expect the ITF to be less forgiving of Leroy Jenkins and his fiends than the ASF.

 

 

Couple of weeks now have gone by since the update.  Any changes to your considerations?

 

Also, you spoke well at the top of this regarding DM and SS, but I was curious as to why at the bottom, you didn't mention anything concerning a RadA/DM  consideration?  

[Linea]

RadA already has huge amounts of HP/S from regen, absorb, and healing.

 

Teams are slowly improving, but there are still a lot of people that want to run non-incarnate builds in 4-star, and that frequently does not work out well.

On the upside, there are more teams that are learning, and working together more, and the end result is exponentially better.

 

[Sanguinesun]

1 hour ago, Linea said:

RadA already has huge amounts of HP/S from regen, absorb, and healing.

 

Teams are slowly improving, but there are still a lot of people that want to run non-incarnate builds in 4-star, and that frequently does not work out well.

On the upside, there are more teams that are learning, and working together more, and the end result is exponentially better.

 

 

Sorry I think maybe my questions were a bit ambiguous. 

 

My question regarding RadA/DM was more wondering about DM's -tohit , fear etc contributions and their merit vs any heal/regen considerations.  It was mentioned I believe that tier 4 mobs are stronger against and diminishes the kb with SS(thus diminishing a soft control). I havent seen mentioning then  whether that's as well going on with -tohit or fear. Even if so I wonder if the -tohit/fear helps in stacking from any controllers/defenders using similar.   

 

As for the more general question for updates to thinking since you and your group of folks have been playing it more for the last few weeks was whether you've seen in shift in your chart rankings or changed up prim/sec tank considerations with other choices.  That's why I asked as well upon the DM per your speaking strongly of it in the first part of your post but then making no mention of it with RadA/  at the end.  

 

 

 

[Linea]

Typically I pair RadA and other resist armors with defensive weapons.  However, a 4-star itf will strip that defense in a blink, unless it's either protected by stacking multiple ageless, or by stacking additional team buffs.  The same will happen even in lower stars.  This makes you personally bringing the defense a bit less useful than someone that can specialize in it.

 

SS is primarily recommended for the +tohit.   KB gets stripped in 4-star, but is still useful in lower difficulties, for hardmode in general this will be useful, just not 4-star.

 

DM is mostly useful for the +to-hit and the heal, but RadA alreadys has healing covered, not so much the -defense.  Any -defense will be cut in half, and at defense softcap magnitudes of 100 to 200 defense, a small debuff in isolation will be effectively meaningless. 

 

I rather doubt minimal fear will make any difference in durability at the damage saturation levels you'll be seeing in hardmode.

 

The only changes in any rankings would be that I'm happy that more teams are bringing heavier defense support, making resist armors more viable than straight out of the gate teams were.  This particular meta does shift things in favor of resists armors.  When defense is effectively perma-hardcapped, then the resist armor with it's resist cap and higher HP/S via absorbs, heals, regen, really pushes itself into the foreground.   There was a similar trend with the ASF.  ***IF*** you have the defense support, resist armors can really shine.

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Linea

[FUBARczar]

On 9/12/2022 at 8:29 PM, Linea said:

Typically I pair RadA and other resist armors with defensive weapons.  However, a 4-star itf will strip that defense in a blink, unless it's either protected by stacking multiple ageless, or by stacking additional team buffs.  The same will happen even in lower stars.  This makes you personally bringing the defense a bit less useful than someone that can specialize in it.

 

SS is primarily recommended for the +tohit.   KB gets stripped in 4-star, but is still useful in lower difficulties, for hardmode in general this will be useful, just not 4-star.

 

DM is mostly useful for the +to-hit and the heal, but RadA alreadys has healing covered, not so much the -defense.  Any -defense will be cut in half, and at defense softcap magnitudes of 100 to 200 defense, a small debuff in isolation will be effectively meaningless. 

 

I rather doubt minimal fear will make any difference in durability at the damage saturation levels you'll be seeing in hardmode.

 

The only changes in any rankings would be that I'm happy that more teams are bringing heavier defense support, making resist armors more viable than straight out of the gate teams were.  This particular meta does shift things in favor of resists armors.  When defense is effectively perma-hardcapped, then the resist armor with it's resist cap and higher HP/S via absorbs, heals, regen, really pushes itself into the foreground.   There was a similar trend with the ASF.  ***IF*** you have the defense support, resist armors can really shine.

 

Now that I have a number of 4*'s under my belt I will say that, when a min/max team will provide the proper support sets required to match the Defensive sets of its Tank/Brute, then Resist/Heal/Absorb/Regen sets are the best, and damage Tanks/Brutes on top of those.

 

The best defensive sets on a min/max team are Bio, Fire and Rad.

[FUBARczar]

Oh, I would also add to the above that the best DPS offensive sets are the best add well.  

[Jiro Ito]

I've been using my shield/ice tank on hard mode ITFs and Aeons.  Ice patch is nice for some additional mitigation plus any little bit of -recharge I drop, but at 4 stars the only way to survive is to roll as a team and help each other.  New Rommy has some unresistable special damage attacks that often critical, the sneaky cheater.  I think any tank powerset can be used as long as it's built thoughtfully, played well, and backed up by a team.

[StriderIV]

On 9/12/2022 at 10:29 AM, Linea said:

Typically I pair RadA and other resist armors with defensive weapons.  However, a 4-star itf will strip that defense in a blink, unless it's either protected by stacking multiple ageless, or by stacking additional team buffs.  The same will happen even in lower stars.  This makes you personally bringing the defense a bit less useful than someone that can specialize in it.

 

SS is primarily recommended for the +tohit.   KB gets stripped in 4-star, but is still useful in lower difficulties, for hardmode in general this will be useful, just not 4-star.

 

DM is mostly useful for the +to-hit and the heal, but RadA alreadys has healing covered, not so much the -defense.  Any -defense will be cut in half, and at defense softcap magnitudes of 100 to 200 defense, a small debuff in isolation will be effectively meaningless. 

 

I rather doubt minimal fear will make any difference in durability at the damage saturation levels you'll be seeing in hardmode.

 

The only changes in any rankings would be that I'm happy that more teams are bringing heavier defense support, making resist armors more viable than straight out of the gate teams were.  This particular meta does shift things in favor of resists armors.  When defense is effectively perma-hardcapped, then the resist armor with it's resist cap and higher HP/S via absorbs, heals, regen, really pushes itself into the foreground.   There was a similar trend with the ASF.  ***IF*** you have the defense support, resist armors can really shine.

 

Rad/SS seems like it’d be a crazy good pairing, especially with a team supporting it. 

[StriderIV]

On 9/14/2022 at 4:55 AM, FUBARczar said:

Oh, I would also add to the above that the best DPS offensive sets are the best add well.  

Which offensive sets would these be? Just curious!

[FUBARczar]

On 9/18/2022 at 8:53 AM, StriderIV said:

Which offensive sets would these be? Just curious!

Well personally I have had the most success with my Fire/EM/Soul.

 

And for First Aura, fire melee should be good.  

 

Next one has good success with Bio/SS.

 

Off the top of my head, other than EM and SS I would consider Stone. Maybe even make TW, WM, and IM work.  

[FUBARczar]

On 9/3/2022 at 5:15 PM, siran said:

I'm going to prefix this with 'I've not tried hard mode yet'. I do get it is hard mode, especially after reading this thread

 

My question: will dark armor work. I have found in normal content that Dark Armor is superb. I can cap the defences (normal content), cap most resists (even energy with the P2W Kinetic armor if I really need to, which I hardly ever do), the best heal in the game (total heal every 10 seconds or so) and level 4 stuns AOE all the time (paired with super str, stone or electric melee)

 

 On normal +4x8 ITF these guys usually don't loose any hps, and if they do the total heal every 10 seconds or so helps a lot. Of course they don't have any DDR which a lot of this thread has been about... but I find after a handclap and an oppressive gloom most things aren't hitting me any (on normal difficulty) . Clearly EBs and AVs are not in the 'most things'.... but that heal helps a lot.

 

Edit: oh and soul transfer is great for standing up quickly if you do fall over.  (as the previous post said about Rise of the Phoneix) But I've only used it once or so every 50 veteran levels... I suspect I will use it more now...

 

Is the hard mode such that 'it's all about the DDR?' at the highest level of difficulties?

 

 

 

It's not all about DDR, defense or resistance.  It's about all of the above and more.

 

DA can do fine, but not because of OG or whatever (although CoF>OG in HM)  It's because of team support, innate high resists and powerful heal.  

[Linea]

DA ***IF*** it's properly supported would be an excellent pick.

4-Star Rommy will destroy any unsupported tank, and not even chip a nail doing it.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Linea

[Shock Star]

On 8/24/2022 at 8:24 PM, Tsuko said:

Defence is for teenage gurl : this build can free the 4 stars oracles solo

 

 

Do you still have the Mids file for this build? If so, I was wondering if I could get my grubby hands on it.