Another nail in the Brute coffin

[Snarky]

16 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

I have asked for this thread to be closed as it serves no pupose other than to whine. Nothing constructive about it.

You have asked the GMs to censor me.   Interesting.  You may find some luck there.  I was censored once for complaining about a April Fools joke the Devs pulled on us a couple years back.  I quit the game for six months.  Censorship is the last resort of the small minded when they cannot control the world in any other way.  

[Gobbledigook]

2 minutes ago, Snarky said:

You have asked the GMs to censor me.   Interesting.  You may find some luck there.  I was censored once for complaining about a April Fools joke the Devs pulled on us a couple years back.  I quit the game for six months.  Censorship is the last resort of the small minded when they cannot control the world in any other way.  

Not censor you, you don't deserve that but this thread is a lost cause. Yet again seeing more into  than there is.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[PainX]

just come to the dark side you too can make a rad/SS/dork tank

[Snarky]

27 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Not censor you, you don't deserve that but this thread is a lost cause. Yet again seeing more into  than there is.

Here is an idea.  Probably a lost cause, I already know.  If you do not like my thread...FIND OTHER CONTENT ON THE INTERNET

 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 8/25/2022 at 5:35 PM, Mopery said:

Brutal.

Brutal, Juice.

 

 

[thunder_crane]

On 8/25/2022 at 5:17 PM, Snarky said:

Now we see a change in agro that puts more pressure on Brutes armor by having anyone you agro (even past 17) just plink at you with any ranged attacks they have.  While Brutes have almost no response other than suck it up. 

 

I'm curious about this part of your original post. While I agree with the statement, I don't see why it's necessarily limited to brutes. Doesn't this apply to, ignoring tankers, most melee ATs? I haven't played every AT so maybe I'm missing something but can you add some details about why Scrappers, Stalkers, Sentinels, etc wouldn't be as affected as Brutes by these changes?

[FUBARczar]

Of you think brutes are bad off go run an MM on s hardmode ITF. 😂

 

But seriously, Brutes are not that bad off.  They could just use a little love. 

 

Thinking off the cuff here, something like having their base defense numbers split the difference with tanks and scrappers. Better than a scrapper defensively when solo but less than a tank.

 

And perhaps keep the same relative damage cap in real numbers with a smidge better base number. 

 

IDK, I don't think they need much at all, just a little somethin' somethin'.

[thunder_crane]

1 minute ago, FUBARczar said:

IDK, I don't think they need much at all, just a little somethin' somethin'.

 

Cocaine? A pocket Kin?

[Snarky]

38 minutes ago, thunder_crane said:

 

I'm curious about this part of your original post. While I agree with the statement, I don't see why it's necessarily limited to brutes. Doesn't this apply to, ignoring tankers, most melee ATs? I haven't played every AT so maybe I'm missing something but can you add some details about why Scrappers, Stalkers, Sentinels, etc wouldn't be as affected as Brutes by these changes?

It does indeed put more pressure on all ATs.  But my specific thought was the difference between Tanks and Brutes.  I believe this will affect Brute players much more often.  

 

This goes back to ROFLSTOMP leapfrog Brute chaos play from the beginning of the AT.  Nevessitated by Fury and applauded by (some?most!few...) teammates who needed a Redside Tank.  A Brute grabs as much agro as indiscriminately as possible.  A Tank player on the other hand can calmly choose which groups to agro, use kiting, pulls, compartmentalizing of combat areas, goal strategies, etc.  A Brute.  Leroooooooy Jenkkkkingssssss

[Bill Z Bubba]

If only they had never added side switching...

[Sovera]

As long as people think that the 'AoE buff' matters things will always lean towards how Tankers got it so much better. And yet Brutes clear maps faster than Tankers, uh, almost like the 'AoE buff' is useless outside farming (and even then Brutes STILL finish maps faster).

 

A Brute in hard content that has buffs from the team is as hardy as a Tanker. The Tanker just (most of the time) does not require buffs from the team.

 

 

These discussions invariably are about feels which makes arguments complicated.

[Erratic1]

22 minutes ago, Sovera said:

As long as people think that the 'AoE buff' matters things will always lean towards how Tankers got it so much better. And yet Brutes clear maps faster than Tankers, uh, almost like the 'AoE buff' is useless outside farming (and even then Brutes STILL finish maps faster).

 

A Brute in hard content that has buffs from the team is as hardy as a Tanker. The Tanker just (most of the time) does not require buffs from the team.

 

 

These discussions invariably are about feels which makes arguments complicated.

 

There is a thread where the same content gets run by different ATs which I think you're familiar with. Brutes are not clearing faster in that thread.

 

As example: 

 

 

You do respond in that thread as if this is some sort of peculiarity of SS, but the same buy who posted the 3:50 time with the Tanker did the mission with an SS/FA Brute, which according to you should do it faster and the result was: 

 

The usual hallmark in the thread is posting success times without dying. He managed to make the same time only by dying. Had he been avoiding deaths he would have been slower.

 

Same powersets, same content, only differing by AT.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thunder_crane]

32 minutes ago, Krimson said:

Are we making sure that builds are mostly even with regards to enhancement cost and the like? My billion INF Tanker is pretty nifty, but would a 500 million INF Tanker stack up against a 500 million INF Brute?

 

But does that even matter? Various builds have various performance at various levels, or investment levels. 

[Erratic1]

40 minutes ago, Krimson said:

Are we making sure that builds are mostly even with regards to enhancement cost and the like? My billion INF Tanker is pretty nifty, but would a 500 million INF Tanker stack up against a 500 million INF Brute?

 

The builds are both listed in the second post. 

 

[Thrax]

Go play a sentinel for a few hundred levels. Then come back here and try to complain about brutes. Drop mic. 

[Erratic1]

Just now, Thrax said:

Go play a sentinel for a few hundred levels. Then come back here and try to complain about brutes. Drop mic. 

 

I believe I have posts in the Sentinel forum advocating for Sentinel changes.

 

Why do some people seem to think saying AT <X> needs something means that AT <Y> does not?

[Thrax]

12 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I believe I have posts in the Sentinel forum advocating for Sentinel changes.

 

Why do some people seem to think saying AT <X> needs something means that AT <Y> does not?

That isn’t what I was saying at all. Read it again. It’s not either it but sentinels way worse than brutes could ever hope to be. 

[Gobbledigook]

6 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

There is a thread where the same content gets run by different ATs which I think you're familiar with. Brutes are not clearing faster in that thread.

 

As example: 

 

 

You do respond in that thread as if this is some sort of peculiarity of SS, but the same buy who posted the 3:50 time with the Tanker did the mission with an SS/FA Brute, which according to you should do it faster and the result was: 

 

The usual hallmark in the thread is posting success times without dying. He managed to make the same time only by dying. Had he been avoiding deaths he would have been slower.

 

Same powersets, same content, only differing by AT.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That test is just as much about player skill. The mobs are not particularly tough. Easy for a Tanker and Brute but a Brute will take out a harder target easier. Most content is easy. Procs, build, skill etc will be a big factor also. I think you are putting too much worth in this test. Do you put such worth in the pylon test also?

 

You do seem to see the worst in posts where they don't exist. I had to pull you up on a post before because you attacked me thinking it was directed at you and  it wasn't even close lol. If you read something and dislike it, rather than attacking maybe just think you could be misinterpreting it or the writer is not conveying the message as well as they could. 

 

From a previous thread....

 

 Erratic1

Dude, I posted a video of a Tanker clearing at record speeds. That is -=NOT=- opinion. That is objective, recorded demonstration.

 

As for opinion, it is your post full of the use of the word, "my".

 

Me

 It was just a general comment about Tankers being OP and not directed at you lol. 

 

We do not need to be enemies and we do not need to agree all the time. That is fine 🙂

Edited August 28, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Gobbledigook]

1 hour ago, Krimson said:

I'll take a look. I know a high end Tanker can keep pace with a Brute, but I wonder about one built on all yellow enhancements. I think more players have not so optimized builds than high end ones, so that is the performance I am wondering about. 

Until there are some very hard targets. A brute will usually pull ahead then in my experience.

 

Tankers can afford to proc more than Brutes due to better mitigations. If a Brute procced the same it would be ahead but be squishier. I think a lot of Brutes build to be Tankier where Tankers build for damage more. Perhaps procs are the problem? Maybe there is confusion as to what role a Brute is?? I build mine as a damage dealer. A bit tougher than a Scrapper with a little less damage, but team buffs work very well on a Brute.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Erratic1]

39 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

That test is just as much about player skill. The mobs are not particularly tough. Easy for a Tanker and Brute but a Brute will take out a harder target easier. Most content is easy. Procs, build, skill etc will be a big factor also. I think you are putting too much worth in this test. Do you put such worth in the pylon test also?

 

It was the same player playing identical powersets in the same mission. Are you suggesting he was more skilled at melee on one character as opposed to the other?

 

39 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

 

You do seem to see the worst in posts where they don't exist. I had to pull you up on a post before because you attacked me thinking it was directed at you and  it wasn't even close lol. If you read something and dislike it, rather than attacking maybe just think you could be misinterpreting it or the writer is not conveying the message as well as they could. 

 

Then consider me in a generous mood as, despite you talking about me rather than the topic, I'm ignoring it. 

[Sovera]

6 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

There is a thread where the same content gets run by different ATs which I think you're familiar with. Brutes are not clearing faster in that thread.

 

As example: 

 

 

You do respond in that thread as if this is some sort of peculiarity of SS, but the same buy who posted the 3:50 time with the Tanker did the mission with an SS/FA Brute, which according to you should do it faster and the result was: 

 

The usual hallmark in the thread is posting success times without dying. He managed to make the same time only by dying. Had he been avoiding deaths he would have been slower.

 

Same powersets, same content, only differing by AT.

 

 

You are experienced enough in CoH to be aware of how +damage buffs have more of a benefit for other ATs than for Brutes. Double stacked Rage does wonders for Tankers and has much less effect on Brutes, You are aware of this.

 

Are you going to do Bill's thing of becoming upset when I mention this mechanic we all know of? Do you have any other example that is not SS at least?

 

There are two sets that make the AT shine and one involves SS with double stack and the other involves Rad Armor with lots of damage procs. A few months back this was the equivalent of Bio/TW.

 

But Bio/TW or Rage Stacking with one set or proc abusing with a specific other does not make an AT OP outside of those combos. We can hinge the whole argument based on those as long as we agree that they only happen with those particular combos.

[Erratic1]

Just now, Sovera said:

 

 

You are experienced enough in CoH to be aware of how +damage buffs have more of a benefit for other ATs than for Brutes. Double stacked Rage does wonders for Tankers and has much less effect on Brutes, You are aware of this.

 

Are you going to do Bill's thing of becoming upset when I mention this mechanic we all know of? Do you have any other example that is not SS at least?

 

I am not Bill so I am not sure why you would expect me to react like Bill any more than you would expect me to dance like Ginger Rogers (who I also am not).

 

As for things people know, you know that Ston also noted the performance of his Fire/Savage tanker (4:06). You know this because in that thread you asked him for the build. Do note that Fire/Sav is not relying on any sort of Rage mechanic as Savage doesn't have one. And yet Savage Melee was only 11 second slower than Super Strength. That would suggest it is not Super Strength or Rage mechanics that is allowing the performance. 

 

 

Just now, Sovera said:

 

There are two sets that make the AT shine and one involves SS with double stack and the other involves Rad Armor with lots of damage procs. A few months back this was the equivalent of Bio/TW.

 

But Bio/TW or Rage Stacking with one set or proc abusing with a specific other does not make an AT OP outside of those combos. We can hinge the whole argument based on those as long as we agree that they only happen with those particular combos.

 

 Again, how are you explaining the Fire/Savage performance, as neither of those are in the powersets you consider exceptional?

[Sovera]

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I am not Bill so I am not sure why you would expect me to react like Bill any more than you would expect me to dance like Ginger Rogers (who I also am not).

 

As for things people know, you know that Ston also noted the performance of his Fire/Savage tanker (4:06). You know this because in that thread you asked him for the build. Do note that Fire/Sav is not relying on any sort of Rage mechanic as Savage doesn't have one. And yet Savage Melee was only 11 second slower than Super Strength. That would suggest it is not Super Strength or Rage mechanics that is allowing the performance. 

 

 

 

 Again, how are you explaining the Fire/Savage performance, as neither of those are in the powersets you consider exceptional?

 

I am not. I never did look deep into it since he did not post the Fire/Sav build which was the one that piqued my interest. SS I already knew that double stacking Rage in a vacuum is very strong. But it was two minutes faster than my own Fire/Savage tests so I see three possibilities:

 

- Some deep RNG involved.

- incarnates were involved.

- Epic pool powers for extra AoE (Savage already has two PbAoEs so it's good for clears).

 

Two minutes seems rather deep and I did try some strong proc approaches that turned into a wash. But those 'strong proc approaches' were still trying to keep the build rounded, I suppose if just ignoring making a stable build and just stuffing procs everywhere might work, but that's looking like those pylon specialized builds that never come out to play.

 

If it was because of using extra AoE from epic pools then that's fair and does not merit being called 'a pylon build'. Some people do want that extra AoE for when they solo, but in my experience in a team that extra AoE serves no purpose since we all aware at the pace that teams steam roll in the initial AoE volley.

 

This is why I wanted to look at the build at the time since there could be something to learn from.

[Erratic1]

Just now, Sovera said:

This is why I wanted to look at the build at the time since there could be something to learn from.

 

I cannot say why he did not respond to that request as he did post the builds for the Fire/SS. Perhaps he just did not notice the request, or possibly it slipped his mind. Either way, he was logged into the forum as recently as yesterday and so it seems he is around to ask.

 

But let me analyze my own contradictory nature some....

 

While it gets argued over whether it's true or not, the realm where the contention lies that Tankers potentially outshine Brutes is the realm of IO set bonuses. This thread got going looking at a level of play which pretty well requires set based builds. Still, it is commonly said the game is not balanced around set IOs then even if it is so that Tankers are ahead of Brutes in that realm the developers may not overly care. Or at least, they may not overly care if the gap stays sufficiently narrow and confined. After all, how many players reach 50 and how many of them engage in end game content?

 

Am I concerned about Brute/Tanker performance outside that range? Honestly, I do not think so. For the most part, I am quite content with how Brutes and Tankers play up both solo and in group (I do not tend to apply set bonuses until a character is 50, excepting Recovery related ones and then only as needed). And as I noted elsewhere, Tankers needed something because I remember the tedium of playing up a Tanker previously. People talk about soloing Defenders being nasty, but I did that back at the beginning of live (admittedly pre-ED) and that was never so bad as post-ED Tanker soloing (excepting certain build).

 

While it is interesting to read reports of it, I have never wanted to solo ITF on any character regardless of AT. If a Tanker can do it and a Brute cannot, or the Brute takes longer to do so that would suggest of some measure of AT imbalance, but it is not something I was ever planning on doing anyway. I cannot see that ever being my cup of tea.

[Sovera]

5 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I cannot say why he did not respond to that request as he did post the builds for the Fire/SS. Perhaps he just did not notice the request, or possibly it slipped his mind. Either way, he was logged into the forum as recently as yesterday and so it seems he is around to ask.

 

But let me analyze my own contradictory nature some....

 

While it gets argued over whether it's true or not, the realm where the contention lies that Tankers potentially outshine Brutes is the realm of IO set bonuses. This thread got going looking at a level of play which pretty well requires set based builds. Still, it is commonly said the game is not balanced around set IOs then even if it is so that Tankers are ahead of Brutes in that realm the developers may not overly care. Or at least, they may not overly care if the gap stays sufficiently narrow and confined. After all, how many players reach 50 and how many of them engage in end game content?

 

Am I concerned about Brute/Tanker performance outside that range? Honestly, I do not think so. For the most part, I am quite content with how Brutes and Tankers play up both solo and in group (I do not tend to apply set bonuses until a character is 50, excepting Recovery related ones and then only as needed). And as I noted elsewhere, Tankers needed something because I remember the tedium of playing up a Tanker previously. People talk about soloing Defenders being nasty, but I did that back at the beginning of live (admittedly pre-ED) and that was never so bad as post-ED Tanker soloing (excepting certain build).

 

While it is interesting to read reports of it, I have never wanted to solo ITF on any character regardless of AT. If a Tanker can do it and a Brute cannot, or the Brute takes longer to do so that would suggest of some measure of AT imbalance, but it is not something I was ever planning on doing anyway. I cannot see that ever being my cup of tea.

 

 

I notice my own replies seem to be falling into goalpost shifting and maybe I should just shut up. I'm using my tests as a basis but they are not min maxed for damage which is how my Scrappers end with 2:30+ pylon times because I never take the snipe.

 

If someone does go all damage and gets better times I can't whine that their build is not balanced if they are doing the content anyway.