Sins of the Devs are visited upon the players

[Bill Z Bubba]

Side-switching created a ridiculous AT balance situation. It was one of the worst decisions the CoH developers made. Separated, there was no issue at all.

[Coyotedancer]

I'll keep my blue-side Stalkers and Brutes (and my red-side Defenders and Scraps), thanks. Count me firmly in the "Side-switching was a Good Thing" camp. Chasing some illusion of real balance in the City is a snipe hunt and always has been.

[lepidopter]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Side-switching created a ridiculous AT balance situation.  Separated, there was no issue at all.

sure, but to me personally it's worth it.  To me, if there are imbalance issues between brutes/tankers or defenders/corrupters or whatever, that's a problem whether they rub elbows or not.  Balance is hard enough, I don't trust the DAOC "balance the factions overall" approach because I think it's harder.  But for me, story is way more important than game mechanics here-- or game mechanics are a vehicle for storytelling.  YMMV, and I understand separating the ATs adds its own richness of story.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

I'll keep my blue-side Stalkers and Brutes (and my red-side Defenders and Scraps), thanks. Count me firmly in the "Side-switching was a Good Thing" camp. Chasing some illusion of real balance in the City is a snipe hunt and always has been.

 

That's such a false statement. There absolutely could be xp/time balance created with nothing more than AT mod corrections amongst the 4 melee ATs.

[PeregrineFalcon]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Side-switching created a ridiculous AT balance situation. It was one of the worst decisions the CoH developers made. Separated, there was no issue at all.

I hate to agree with you on this, but it's just true.

 

I love my MMs, and I love being able to play them blueside with my friends. And I love the idea of villains being able to be redeemed and heroes falling from grace, in theory. The way it was done in game resulted in some serious balance issues that just didn't exist prior to all of the ATs being able to intermingle.

[Coyotedancer]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

That's such a false statement. There absolutely could be xp/time balance created with nothing more than AT mod corrections amongst the 4 melee ATs.

 

No one will ever be happy with anything the Powers That Be come up with, Bill. You know that as well as I do. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Coyotedancer said:

No one will ever be happy with anything the Powers That Be come up with, Bill. You know that as well as I do. 

 

People's happiness is irrelevant to numerical balance. In other words... fuck 'em.

[Riverdusk]

Without side switching my guess would be red side would be even more dead than it is already.  As it stands now I make most of my characters vigilante so I can join either side.  Not sure how often I'd bother if I had to switch characters as well to do it.

 

 

 

 

[gamingglen]

3 hours ago, srmalloy said:

It goes back 20 years to Dennis 'Thresh' Fong and his standard configuration for Quake, winning the first Quake tournament. When he converted to using the mouse for mouselook, he needed controls for his left hand, and settled on WASD. Read How WASD Became the Standard PC Control Scheme -- there were other patterns on the left side of the keyboard, but Thresh's celebrity had people asking for his configuration, spreading it around.

 

 It goes way back further than that. I was using a PLATO keyboard with arrows printed on the WADX keys in the mid '70s. 

[ForeverLaxx]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Agreed, but that's not what happens. What happens is that negative posts get hidden and that positive ones do not, and it really gives the impression that dissent is not allowed and that The Council does not want to hear anything that does not agree with the changes they are making.

The other thing that happens, and I know this because I've been slapped for it before more than once, is someone will make a post attacking another player to instigate a response and if anyone responds to it, only the responder's post gets deleted/hidden while the inflammatory instigator's post gets to remain. It reads as if they want you to know that you're being silenced; that it's not enough you're being put in the corner, but that you need to see that the people goading you are being endorsed.

 

To me, the feeling that all feedback that isn't praise is ignored is a secondary issue. Outside of rushed ideas or last-minute additions getting cut and put back in the oven (just to come back out later), almost everything that pops up as a Feedback topic is happening whether we like it or not. All we get to do is decide how hard we're getting kicked, not that we'd prefer not being kicked in the first place. No, even that isn't as bad of a realization as being handed the impression that certain posters are allowed to belittle you and if you say anything back, even in a constructive manner relevant to the thread topic, you get deleted, handed a "be careful!" message by a GM, told it's not relevant due to some arbitrary reason, and the post that started it remains to taunt you.

 

Yes, my words make it sound more serious than it is. This is just a video game, after all. Still, it's exceptionally frustrating and flies in the face of what a "feedback thread" is ostensibly meant to be. They're not meant for "player discussion," even though people can discuss ad infinitum about how much they love it. Perhaps they should be changed to "Bug Testing" threads instead since that's mostly the only feedback that gets considered in the first place. That is to say, "does it work or not" is what matters.

[Bill Z Bubba]

10 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

Without side switching my guess would be red side would be even more dead than it is already.  As it stands now I make most of my characters vigilante so I can join either side.  Not sure how often I'd bother if I had to switch characters as well to do it.

 

So kill side switching and find out. I expect redside participation to increase.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

So kill side switching and find out. I expect redside participation to increase.

I don't know what will happen, but we all know that the redside population died on the retail servers after side switching went live.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

People's happiness is irrelevant to numerical balance. In other words... fuck 'em.

 

You've said this before and I can never really tell if you're actually serious. 

This is a video game. It's entertainment. The objective is to make people happy, not to pursue some OCD fixation with numerical balance. Balancing these ATs numerically is akin to the generic dumbing down of the entire system. They should be evaluated in terms of usefulness and function, not balancing raw numbers.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, battlewraith said:

You've said this before and I can never really tell if you're actually serious. 

This is a video game. It's entertainment. The objective is to make people happy, not to pursue some OCD fixation with numerical balance. Balancing these ATs numerically is akin to the generic dumbing down of the entire system. They should be evaluated in terms of usefulness and function, not balancing raw numbers.

 

And your opinion on the topic is irrelevant to me. Balance should be achieved for balance's sake. Otherwise, it's City of Tanks as it is now.

[Coyotedancer]

2 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I don't know what will happen, but we all know that the redside population died on the retail servers after side switching went live.

 

Being one of those people who liked leveling red side better than blue (and whose "favorite" was a Stalker-), on some of the Live servers it was dead as doornail LONG before Going Rogue came around. I was on Liberty. The largest team I was ever on was a duo... with FCM. (FCM is Mr,Coyote) Even seeing another player character bouncing around was rare.

 

Maybe it was more active on Virtue or Freedom, but out in the suburbs? Nope. 'Population of jack all. 

[Riverdusk]

7 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

Being one of those people who liked leveling red side better than blue (and whose "favorite" was a Stalker-), on some of the Live servers it was dead as doornail LONG before Going Rogue came around. I was on Liberty. The largest team I was ever on was a duo... with FCM. (FCM is Mr,Coyote) Even seeing another player character bouncing around was rare.

 

Maybe it was more active on Virtue or Freedom, but out in the suburbs? Nope. 'Population of jack all. 

 

My memory as well.  It was all the rage after it first released of course.  I remember playing it a ton right after it released.  But the newness wore off pretty quick and population fell off a cliff before side switching was even a thing.  I could be misremembering the timing though of course.

 

Honestly the only AT I'd miss from redside is MM as it is so unique (illusion controller probably the closest blue side analogy but that is pretty specific and even that is a bit of a stretch).  The rest of the red AT's, eh....don't think I'd miss much.  

 

Better question, which side would get stuck with the sentinel? 😉

[lepidopter]

35 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

That's such a false statement. There absolutely could be xp/time balance created with nothing more than AT mod corrections amongst the 4 melee ATs.

Stuff like this is why I told myself I was only gonna lurk around here, no posting, but...

 

Hold up, why on earth do you care about xp/time balance, why do you only mention melee ATs, and why does it seem like you're conflating xp/time balance with game balance?  Do you think other people should care about this particular bee?  It's in YOUR bonnet.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And your opinion on the topic is irrelevant to me. Balance should be achieved for balance's sake. Otherwise, it's City of Tanks as it is now.

 

Yeah you've got a weird obsession and it overrides any concern for how other people are enjoying the game. 

 

You don't have to care about my opinion. I don't give a shit about yours. I don't care if it is City of Tanks. It doesn't matter if that is true or not because I don't play tanks. The game doesn't make or require me to play tanks. Other people having fun playing tanks doesn't bother me. I don't look over my shoulder and get pissed that some other build or AT is doing better than mine--to the extent that I start clamoring for it to be nerfed. The balance you want doesn't exist and has never existed. And if it did, it would simply mean everything sucked equally.

 

And goddamn, a few pointless irritating nerfs got through and it's like chum in the water. Nerf incarnates, nerf EM, nerf the ability to switch between red and blue side. Meanwhile, if you go to the suggestion forum and asked for a minor buff the power creep brigade would crucify you, lol.

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 minutes ago, lepidopter said:

Stuff like this is why I told myself I was only gonna lurk around here, no posting, but...

 

Hold up, why on earth do you care about xp/time balance, why do you only mention melee ATs, and why does it seem like you're conflating xp/time balance with game balance?  Do you think other people should care about this particular bee?  It's in YOUR bonnet.

 

Cuz I love numerical purity. I only mention melee ATs cuz that's the hot topic. In my world. every AT and powerset combo could achieve the same xp/hr rate. while solo.

[Mezmera]

18 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

 

My memory as well.  It was all the rage after it first released of course.  I remember playing it a ton right after it released.  But the newness wore off pretty quick and population fell off a cliff before side switching was even a thing.  I could be misremembering the timing though of course.

 

Honestly the only AT I'd miss from redside is MM as it is so unique (illusion controller probably the closest blue side analogy but that is pretty specific and even that is a bit of a stretch).  The rest of the red AT's, eh....don't think I'd miss much.  

 

Don't get me started on the cluster**** that was Going Rogue.  To me side switching was not a problem.  It was as if the live crew learned nothing from fracturing the community with yet another 3rd tutorial zone and making it so hard to access these new zones as opposed to red and blue side so this didn't help keep much interest.  It was very poorly thought out, like somehow they were going to pick up a substantial amount of new subscribers with the new low level content when half the current playerbase is hungry for more to do later in their characters life. 

 

The risk of losing long time players looking for more to do with their favorite tanker far outweighed any paltry uptick in new players that they thought would happen.  Which I surmise is exactly what caused a lot of the population to shed off.

 

Those new expansion zones should have been 35+ along with the incarnate stuff to do which would have appeased both alt'ers and main'ing players.  They could have had an introductory arc from a contact in the villain or hero zones at 35 to scout out the other dimension which this locked you from attaining missions red and blue until you told them to buzz off if you choose not to want to go over there.  

 

It's such a waste what ended up being the new expansion zones as opposed to what it could have been for everyone.  Rather we got such well written low level content you could outlevel in a day and piecemealed later in life content.  

 

18 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

Better question, which side would get stuck with the sentinel? 😉

 

I think we can all agree goldside gets them.  

[tidge]

6 hours ago, Ukase said:

Toggles are the worst thing in game, really. They should all be auto-on, like temperature protection. But, I'm sure they exist so end hungry players can turn them off. But I digress.

 

Toggles are so that Stalkers can complete "Kidnap" missions, of course.

[srmalloy]

2 hours ago, gamingglen said:

 

 It goes way back further than that. I was using a PLATO keyboard with arrows printed on the WADX keys in the mid '70s. 

The article I linked pointed out that there were a number of competing key sets for movement, but that it was all the people grabbing Thresh's config that made WASD the winner. Quake let you make your own choice for bindings, but people figured that the camp's config was the best.

[Indystruck]

Calling the hard mode City of Dark Souls is interesting. Dark Souls is, of course, an easy game if you have even a semblance of patience and observance, and is only more difficult if you try to speedrun it.

[Paragon Vanguard]

I think brawl should be nerfed. It comes up too fast, and costs almost no endurance. Under the right circumstances it can EVEN stun! I don't use brawl, therefor, no one should be able to use it or slot it or even look at it. I mean, why have we allowed this to go on for so long?! Also, do the devs even know it can be a kick, or a shield swat?? Why would they even allow a shield swat? It aesthetically looks great, yet my non-shield toon cannot perform this. Do they even know that?  

 

Brawl...the often times overlooked true meta of the game. This is where it ends! 

 

 

😡

[Sakura Tenshi]

Most of the sins I feel are story ones and nitpicking world details

1. Statesman and Sister Psyche's death being done largely to spite Jack Emmert (Also declaring Positron the new leader of the FP felt like self-wank and still doesn't feel as interesting when you rescue him or ask him about incarnates)
2. A lack of care with continuity because Matt Miller didn't want to impose on new writers
3. About everything to do with Serafina, namely CURSING SCIROCCO TO BE VILLAIN AND BEING UPSET WHEN HE DOES VILLAINOUS THINGS
4. Malta having operatives standing around and in the open of Peregrine island
5. The Live devs clearly had zero grasp on Celtic Mythology when coming up with Croatoa (The Tuatha DO NOT consider Bres a hero)
6. Many of the vehicles such as cars, boats (especially cargo ships), Longbow Chasers, Arachnos Fliers, etc. Are ridiculously tiny for their function
7. Likewise the exteriors/footprints of many buildings are way too small.
8. Incorrect coloration on the bouys.
9. Skyway City's whole "Freeway" system makes no goddamn sense!
10. As I've said many times before: the structure of Cimerora's armies show the Live Devs gave zero @#$% about how Roman Armies were structured and couldn't be assed to do a single internet search.
11. They gave us an emote that used tea bags, why not one that let us drink the damn tea?!
12. F@#$ING RAIN OF BULLETS ANIMATION! I freaking hate it and wonder why the Live Devs made so many DP animations awful! Devil May Cry shows more restraint with its firearms animations!

Edited September 1, 2022 by Sakura Tenshi