Brute's ATOs need a Revamp

[FUBARczar]

41 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

That may be true, it was an attempt to veer brutes close to where they used to be dmg wise while imposing a penalty to get them there - because there would need to be some applicable penalty to offset and justify the huge dmg increase - plus it reflects IMO how Brute's in comics work - the more you hurt them the stronger you get - and with the one increasing def+res it would eventually take the effect how SR operates - HP bar to 20% then just sit there and laugh.

 

 

Agree 100%

It record the old blaster defiance and it was changed because who wants teammates that try and keep their HP low ...

[The_Warpact]

How about the lower your HP the greater dmg you do? Sort of like the Bloodied builds in Fallout?

[Infinitum]

28 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

How about the lower your HP the greater dmg you do? Sort of like the Bloodied builds in Fallout?

 

That is what my suggestion was also - I think it fits thematically.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, FUBARczar said:

It record the old blaster defiance and it was changed because who wants teammates that try and keep their HP low ...

 

IMO - doesn't matter if it gets the job done better than it currently does.  Not dying is not dying - doesn't matter if you have 1% ho or 100%

 

1 hour ago, FUBARczar said:

I read it, maybe I should say that your opinion about blasters stinks, and that would be more accurate. 

 

You are also entitled to that opinion however incorrect it may be 😀

[roleki]

6 hours ago, Vanden said:

 

IMO the Unrelenting Fury proc already gives Brutes a niche; the endurance reduction makes Brutes the melee AT that can keep fighting after other melee ATs are gasping for air. I remember leveling up my Fire Brute on the live servers; the endurance costs were painful, I felt like I couldn't go anywhere without a tray full of blues. I dreaded going through that again after I recreated him for Homecoming, but I gave him a set of ATOs including the Unrelenting Fury proc, and it was fine! He felt like he had regular endurance costs. It's seriously game-changing, and very underrated.

 

Don't get me wrong, Superior Unrelenting Fury% is a very nice proc, but if I somehow dropped SUF from one of my Brutes, it might feel 'off' but I'm still doing what I do; if you removed Superior Critical Strikes from a Scrapper or Superior Might of The Tanker from a Tank, it would drastically change how those characters operate, full stop.

 

Just in terms of relative value of the benefits, think how many slots you would have to burn, or how many enhancements and boosters you would need to pay for, to get an extra 13-20 Res(All) on a given character.  Tanks get that with one slot.  On the Scrapper side, the SCS proc stops just short of guaranteeing that the next attack will crit, whether that's an AoE that will evaporate everything below a Boss or your ST/T9 that will get rid of the Boss in a second... how many damage enhancements/boosters/procs would you have to jam into a Scrapper to make up the difference in damage output provided by the SCS proc?  

Meanwhile, the SUF% is by and large the Panacea proc that anyone can drop in Health and be done with.   It's nice if you already have the Panacea proc but it's not nearly as impactful as the Tank/Scrapper procs.

 

18 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

How about the lower your HP the greater dmg you do? Sort of like the Bloodied builds in Fallout?

Old-school Defiance!  Onliest thing is, it would be more useful from 1-40 than it would be 41-49, and almost of no use past 50.  I mean, in most situations.

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 9/7/2022 at 5:09 PM, Spaghetti Betty said:

I have a few radical ideas.

 

Brute's Fury

-Increase damage bonus gained from Fury by 1%. Since Fury hovers around 90, this would equate to a 270% damage bonus. I personally don't see that as a game breaker.

 

Or

 

-Chance for Build Up. Obviously the PPM would have to be changed slightly for it to be viable. I just want Brutes to do moar damage.

 

Unrelenting Fury

-Chance for stacking +Recharge and +Run Speed. I'm the Juggernaut, b*tch!

 

 

It's always been my viewpoint that Brutes are the offensive cousins to Tanks and not "Tanks that do more damage". They can already be off-Tanks thanks to team buffs and higher caps and it should stay that way.

 

If changes were to be made, these seem reasonable.  When I play brutes, I love the idea of continuing the momentum.

 

That said, I wish we would stop the power creep cycle at some point.  If something is worse at one aspect but better at another than something else, that's a tradeoff.  If something is worse at everything than maybe take a hard look at it.  And if something is better at everything, stop being so afraid to pull out the nerf bat.

 

In my opinion.

[Luminara]

3 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

How about the lower your HP the greater dmg you do? Sort of like the Bloodied builds in Fallout?

 

So, basically, a proc which is useless for Defense-based sets and Willpower?  Or anyone who builds well?

 

How about no?  Does no work for you?  Because I've got some no you can have.  Would you like a side of no with that?  A tall glass of no to wash it down?

[The_Warpact]

3 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

So, basically, a proc which is useless for Defense-based sets and Willpower?  Or anyone who builds well?

 

How about no?  Does no work for you?  Because I've got some no you can have.  Would you like a side of no with that?  A tall glass of no to wash it down?

You're a tall glass of no.😏

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

How about the lower your HP the greater dmg you do? Sort of like the Bloodied builds in Fallout?

I personally hated old school Defiance. In order to use it well the character has to ride the knife's edge of defeat? Better to ignore having the inherent than bother using it. And ignore having it I did. If the Brtue's proc, either one, worked like that? It would be a phenomenal waste of the set.

 

Edit: The players that used old school Defiance and loved it still leave me wondering what drugs they were on....

Edited September 9, 2022 by Rudra

[Luminara]

14 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

You're a tall glass of no.😏

[Infinitum]

53 minutes ago, Luminara said:

So, basically, a proc which is useless for Defense-based sets and Willpower?  Or anyone who builds well?

 

But, supposedly Brute's have trouble surviving.  That's what I was basing that idea on.

 

If that is not the case...

[lemming]

7 minutes ago, Krimson said:

I always forget that I'm supposed to be struggling and flailing about instead of flourishing. My bad. 

Suffer!

 

I just started a Titan Weapon/Inv Brute yesterday.  So much pain...

[biostem]

2 hours ago, lemming said:

I just started a Titan Weapon/Inv Brute yesterday.  So much pain...

I wish we had something between broadsword and titan weapons - slower than BS but more damage, yet faster than TW, but without the momentum mechanic - something like a "greatsword melee" set that was a good compromise between the two...

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

I wish we had something between broadsword and titan weapons - slower than BS but more damage, yet faster than TW, but without the momentum mechanic - something like a "greatsword melee" set that was a good compromise between the two...

 

War Mace?

[biostem]

40 minutes ago, Vanden said:

War Mace?

Well, I was thinking something else that's 2-handed, or maybe "hand and a half"...

[Luminara]

42 minutes ago, biostem said:

Well, I was thinking something else that's 2-handed, or maybe "hand and a half"...

 

Braggart.

[FUBARczar]

As I said in the Brute thread, fixing Brute ATOs is one thing and fixing Brutes at large is another.

 

Revamping the two Brute ATO specials is just necessary because currently they suck so bad  

 

Brutes themselves are mostly fine. IMO their niche between Scrappers and Tankers is what needs to be firmly cemented and felt.  

 

On the high end things are fine.  It's on the base level where a meaningful difference can be made.

 

IMO a good choice would be to  bump up the base damage or fury multiplier and Defense/Resist numbers slightly to firmly place brutes in-between Scrappers and Tankers.

 

Thinking about making corrections to Fury seems like the better option.  Just let 100 be 100 and not 90 be the defacto 100.  Would that do the trick all by itself?  

 

If not then increase the Fury multiplier until the proper effect is achieved.  

 

Then change the base starting point for brute for Def/Res in-between Scrappers and Tankers.  For example:

Current Base / Proposed Base

Scrapper: 75% / 75%

Brute: 75% / 82.5%

Tanker: 100% / 100%

 

This leaves room for ATOs to boost performance in a different way.

Namely: 

ATO 1: stacking +recharge/movement speed

ATO 2: stacking +Regen/Recovery

[FUBARczar]

11 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

IMO - doesn't matter if it gets the job done better than it currently does.  Not dying is not dying - doesn't matter if you have 1% ho or 100%

 

 

You are also entitled to that opinion however incorrect it may be 😀

Wrong it does matter.  It's a horrible idea and mechanic that has already failed.  Incentivizing risky game play by intentionally keeping health low means that the teams aggro manager will die a lot more, it means brutes will get upset at healers for doing their job, and everyone will hate brutes for being wreck less, and what's more, with hardmode that razors edge is waaaaaaay sharper.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

Wrong it does matter.  It's a horrible idea and mechanic that has already failed.

 

SR says hello.

 

But I get what you are saying also.  But calling it a failed mechanic is not entirely accurate when SR masters it.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

Brutes themselves are mostly fine. IMO their niche between Scrappers and Tankers is what needs to be firmly cemented and felt.  

 

That will be the hardest for most to accept.

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

SR says hello.

 

But I get what you are saying also.  But calling it a failed mechanic is not entirely accurate when SR masters it.

SR is not based on improving as your health gets lower. The increasing resistance SR gets as your health gets lower was added because SR had a survivability problem when sufficient numbers of enemies attacked or the SR character was up against auto-hit attacks.

[Gobbledigook]

Heres an idea...could be a bad one lol.

 

Add +recovery/regen to Fury that increases with Fury. The longer they fight the more they Rampage. This could give them some extra staying power and shrug off small blows. Percentages would need to be worked out but 25% +recovery upto 35% with the Superior UF and 100% +regen upto 125% with Superior UF at max fury. The +recovery could be switched with endurance discount instead. 

 

Turn the Unrelenting Fury bonus into +max fury. +15/+25 max fury for normal/Superior or thereabouts. This would increase dps and survival/staying power a little.

 

Then add something interesting to the Brutes Fury proc. Absorb/damage proc/mitigation/heal for example.

 

 

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

SR is not based on improving as your health gets lower. The increasing resistance SR gets as your health gets lower was added because SR had a survivability problem when sufficient numbers of enemies attacked or the SR character was up against auto-hit attacks.

 

Go back and read my suggestion.

 

15 hours ago, Infinitum said:

My idea - I would tie both to the HP bar.

 

For one the lower your health gets the more def and res you get - pick the categories to make it balanced and sort out the specifics.

 

For the other the lower your health gets the more dmg you do.

 

That's like hulk get mad... Smash.

 

See.  It was a two part suggestion one ATO tied to mitigation.  One side tied to dmg - fitting since Brutes are between tankers and scrappers.  Paid for balance through the hp bar.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

SR is not based on improving as your health gets lower. The increasing resistance SR gets as your health gets lower was added because SR had a survivability problem when sufficient numbers of enemies attacked or the SR character was up against auto-hit attacks.

 

Let's revisit this quote one more time - that is exactly what SR is based on now - the best defenses in the game - with resistance values that increase as the HP bar dips.  This combination makes SR arguably the best, but unequivocally one of the best sets in the game.

 

I can personally attest to my SR characters - tankers and Brute's getting to ~20% health in +4/8 and I could literally leave the room make and eat a sandwich and it still be sitting there when I got back.

 

If Brutes have a survivability issue this would help correct that.  The other ATO will increase damage to crazy levels with the same cost.  The risk involved is burst dmg could potentially overcome the sliding scale.  But worth it in the grand scheme of things.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Infinitum

[FUBARczar]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

SR says hello.

 

But I get what you are saying also.  But calling it a failed mechanic is not entirely accurate when SR masters it.

SR works differently, it's low health buff isn't a reward, it's there to save your life, cause otherwise you'd be dead!

 

What you proposed was what Blaster had, that enticed blaster to do stupid things and die even more often than they did already.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

 

Go back and read my suggestion.

 

 

See.  It was a two part suggestion one ATO tied to mitigation.  One side tied to dmg - fitting since Brutes are between tankers and scrappers.  Paid for balance through the hp bar.

 

 

Let's revisit this quote one more time - that is exactly what SR is based on now - the best defenses in the game - with resistance values that increase as the HP bar dips.  This combination makes SR arguably the best, but unequivocally one of the best sets in the game.

 

I can personally attest to my SR characters - tankers and Brute's getting to ~20% health in +4/8 and I could literally leave the room make and eat a sandwich and it still be sitting there when I got back.

 

If Brutes have a survivability issue this would help correct that.  The other ATO will increase damage to crazy levels with the same cost.  The risk involved is burst dmg could potentially overcome the sliding scale.  But worth it in the grand scheme of things.

The ATOs are not the place to fix an AT.  And an AT shouldn't be fixed by ATOs.