90 Day Return Policy

[lemming]

43 minutes ago, Canadian Anvil said:

Edit 2:

No idea what you're talking about of a third market.

He's taking about Wentworth's, the Black Market, and whatever it's called in Praetoria (Auction House?)

Currency being Influence, Infamy, and Information which is all the same thing now.

 

They were separate for a bit and then put into the same bucket when it was pointed out to be silly to have separate ones.  (Could find exact timing on those if we wanted to delve into past patch notes)

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, Canadian Anvil said:

I may check that out sometime. Thanks for the info.

It's not perfect, but check out mine, under "Biostem 2022 Tunnel Farm" or something similar.  I'm not at my gaming PC to get the specific Arc ID.

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, Canadian Anvil said:

It is prices. Merits didn't help on Live where prices were astronomical as others have attested to above (but I agree, depending on the set, it may not take long to earn 150 to 600 Merits). The seeded salvage cap may help with price control. We will see. Either I am correct and in a few short weeks to months, rare salvage (hence the inflation spreading to IOs' prices) will be on an astronomical path, or I'm wrong. As for the three times I managed to check, rare salvage is already floating between 600,000 to 800,000.

 

Rare salvage is seeded on the AH at 1,000,000 inf.  The price cannot exceed 1,000,000 inf, because there are millions of pieces in the rare salvage pool, and if we somehow manage to drain it the devs can just fill it up again.  As the current going rate for rare salvage, with a tiny bit of patience, is about 500,000, even the worst possible rise in rare salvage prices will add ~500,000 to the cost of a crafted IO.  This is not much.

 

Merit price caps are different here to live, because merits can be bought directly for inf at 1,000,000 inf per merit.  So even if, for some reason, inflation took off like crazy and the HC team did nothing to fix it, then there is a hard cap on recipe prices of 1,000,000 x the merit cost of the recipe.  Even in the worse case, prices on HC absolutely cannot reach 2 billion per IO.  No recipe costs more than 100 merits, so the hard cap on HC recipe prices is 100,000,000 inf.  This is still a lot, and I don't see the HC team wanting to let them get so high when they've been pretty proactive about inflation so far, but there it is.

 

Anyway.  Try just bidding 505,000, waiting a day, and odds are your rare salvage will be there waiting for you.  (Also, if you have something listed for 1,000,000 and you see a sale for 1,500,000, taking down your listing and relisting at 1,500,000 is a bad idea.  Because the AH matches the lowest valid listing price with the highest valid bid, that means someone was already listing lower than you.  That's why yours didn't sell!  All you've done by relisting is lose the AH listing fee and make it less likely you'll catch the next sale.)

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Canadian Anvil said:

Others confirmed this is what happened on Live

 

This is not what happened on the original servers.  What happened on the original servers was the market was dumped on a population with trillions upon trillions of currency gathering dust simultaneously with the release of a brand new enhancement system (Inventions) with low drop rates on the most desired recipes, leading to immediate price spikes and runaway inflation before most players woke up to log in the next day.  There was no economy on the original servers until Issue 9, because there was nothing to spend inf* on, and when Issue 9 did finally create an economy, that economy instantly went into hyper-inflation.  Not eventually, instantly.

 

In contrast, the HC market was set up with those lessons firmly in mind.  Drop rates were increased across the board.  Salvage, recipes, everything that can drop drops more frequently now.  PvP recipes drop in PvE content.  Merit rewards have been increased, expanded to a wider variety of content, and made easier to acquire.  Merit prices for goods were slashed.  The reward merit price for converters was changed from 10 merits for a single converter to 3 converters for a single reward merit... and converters can drop from critters now, even -49 critters.  ATOs were made available to everyone, rather than only top tier customers.  Salvage was seeded on the market, and pooled so no single salvage can be driven to a price above that of any other within its category.  Influence sinks were added and made attractive enough to justify purchases.  And abnormal influence gain via critter defeats has been addressed twice.  Consequently, prices here started low and have only minimally increased over the years.

 

There are currently two uncontrolled market areas, HOs and variants thereof, and Aethers, and even those aren't showing signs of rampant inflation.  Despite the enormous amount of inf* currently floating around in the game, and more being generated at a pace and in amounts which would make Cryptic and Paragon freak out, inflation has still been so slow that it's almost imperceptible.  We're playing in an economic golden age on these servers, in which everyone can have everything they want and still be richer than they imagined possible, and the impact on the market is so minute that it can't even be tracked without a spreadsheet covering more than a year.

The HC server economy will never approach the economy on the original servers because it never started in the situation which was on the original servers.  Whatever you think you recall about the original server's economy, or you believe someone once told you about it, this ain't that and it can't become that.  Period.

 

Lastly, one data point, taken when a Page was recently released and a holiday event is in progress, isn't even remotely sufficient to indicate anything.  And using the threat of inflation to justify a "refund policy" is panic-mongering, playing on peoples' fears to achieve a goal.  Don't do that.  Just don't.  We have enough FUD around here right now, we don't need more.

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, Canadian Anvil said:

They can't? Again, I'm not seeding panic. In fact they only person who keeps insisting there's a panic attitude is you. As I said and implied in the posts above, mother hen: either I am right, or I am wrong. Either way, my earning power on one toon has double this month alone. (And it's only the 11th.)

 

No.

 

10 hours ago, Canadian Anvil said:

And like the real world, the cascading inflation of salvage and recipes skyrocketing will make IOs 2,000,000,000. And earning (an average) of 6,000,000,000 to 10,000,000,000 for an IO set will discourage new and casual players.

 

You put this in your first post. It's a situation that frankly *cannot* happen on HC, barring someone being so *blindly* ignorant of how easy it is to get - well, frankly, everything - and running into someone willing to sucker them into parting with multiple billions.

 

That's a panic. Or hysterics, take your pick. Neither of which has any basis in this game's reality.

 

3 hours ago, Canadian Anvil said:

(but I agree, depending on the set, it may not take long to earn 150 to 600 Merits).

 

No, it doesn't necessarily depend on set. I mentioned hami raids. You just need to participate.

 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

12 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I'll see your 90 day return policy and do ya one more....

 

Price gouging policy: implementation of AH code that limits listing an item for sale above 25% increase over it's 3 year average price on the AH. The 3 year mark will roll as years past, but this is an inflation control measure to maintain homeostasis of the market economy while still allowing marketeers the ability to fluctuate pricing based on market trends.

 

You kid, but this is something I am proposing in real life.  It's not going well.

 

Usury is a crime, but tripling the rent you charge isn't...

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Usury is a crime, but tripling the rent you charge isn't...

Umm... charging interest for lending money is NOT a crime, but you can take a landlord to court for upping the rent beyond some locally-decided-upon amount, and even then, there are numerous protection in place to protect tenants, which include outright stays on eviction, (all depending upon the area you live in, of course).

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

Umm... charging interest for lending money is NOT a crime, but you can take a landlord to court for upping the rent beyond some locally-decided-upon amount, and even then, there are numerous protection in place to protect tenants, which include outright stays on eviction, (all depending upon the area you live in, of course).

 

Um, usury is by definition a crime.  It is *literally* defined as charging a rate of interest that is *illegally* too high.  How high is "too high" is up to the courts, but I think it's currently in the 25-30% range.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Yomo Kimyata

[Rudra]

@Yomo Kimyata is correct. Usury, the practice of charging exorbitant interest on loans is a crime. It is a poorly prosecuted crime, and can be difficult to prove depending on the interest rate, but it still stands as one. Charging interest is legal, just not when it is exploitative.

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Um, usury is by definition a crime.  It is *literally* defined as charging a rate of interest that is *illegally* too high.  How high is "too high" is up to the courts, but I think it's currently in the 25-30% range.

That is merely 1 definition.  It used to refer to charging *any* interest.  Regardless, I agree, from a moral standpoint, that charging an exorbitant amount is wrong...

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

That is merely 1 definition.  It used to refer to charging *any* interest.  Regardless, I agree, from a moral standpoint, that charging an exorbitant amount is wrong...

 

That is *literally* the only definition after the year 1746.  According to the OED.

 

Are you Kang?  Are you in the wrong timeline?

 

 

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

That is *literally* the only definition after the year 1746.  According to the OED.

 

Are you Kang?  Are you in the wrong timeline?

I went by dictionary.com.  Merriam-Webster also matches it.

Edited October 12, 2022 by biostem

[Yomo Kimyata]

Just now, biostem said:

I went by dictionary.com.

 

And you chose to hang your hat on the third definition termed obsolete.  Biostem, I get it you have a beef with me, but just stick to your knitting.  

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

And you chose to hang your hat on the third definition termed obsolete.  Biostem, I get it you have a beef with me, but just stick to your knitting.  

Funny you omitted my 2nd source.  I'll ignore your personal attack...

[Yomo Kimyata]

13 minutes ago, biostem said:

Funny you omitted my 2nd source.  I'll ignore your personal attack...

 

The one you edited in?

 

Listen, if you need to look up a word, you probably shouldn't be willing to die on that hill of its definition or usage because I promise it only makes you look silly.

 

My attempt to make peace via DM was thwarted!

 

Anyway, back to OP.  There's no problem with the system.  The problem is that the sellers right now sell at 5 inf instead of offering at, say 600k.  The solution is to go out and farm rares, however you see fit.

[SeraphimKensai]

45 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

You kid, but this is something I am proposing in real life.  It's not going well.

 

Usury is a crime, but tripling the rent you charge isn't...

An off topic aside: Having rent control measures is generally a good thing.  It pairs well with a Crime Free Multifamily program (which was originally developed in Mesa, Arizona), that helps establish a relationship between renter, landlord, and municipality which usually gives the renters greater protections, ensures the landlords have good tenants, and reduces crime rates in multifamily residential zoning clusters.

But yes, I was kidding a bit on the addendum, as if you do the math, the market price on the AH would be similar to where its at now if not higher. At least its not live pricing where we would drop 8-12 billion influence a toon.

[UltraAlt]

18 hours ago, Canadian Anvil said:

I'm suggesting a 90 day return policy where a listing or a bid is returned if not sold/bought after 90 days.

 

You can cancel your bid whenever you want.

 

If something doesn't sell the price you are trying to sell it at, then you lose the influence  you used to post it, but  you can take it down and post it again.

[MistressOhm]

I think it's time the jerk hackers start dupin' rares, again.  

 

/S

 

Seriously, what part of "be patient" are you all not getting here?  Just because you can't get a Rare salvage at 500K "right now" does not mean an offer to buy one at 500K won't go through eventually;  on the next seed cycle, you'll get your salvage for the price you offered to pay.  

 

(Meanwhile, I'm cashing in Brainstorms and selling the Rares I don't have a use for, making bank on each and every one of them... even at the seeded price.)

 

[Darkaiser]

I have a couple of wild suggestions:

 

1) Fix the listings so I don't have to bid 1 and then look to see the bid history.

 

2) Keep the history at 5 but make the window expandable to 10 or 20 instead of 5. Helps people to see outliers instead of thinking that the last 5 is the new trend.

 

3) Set the market so that there is ALWAYS at least one of everything for sale. If an item goes to zero, the Market populates that item with one but at an insane price. That way, if someone REALLY wants it they can buy it. Might be useful as an Inf sick if those are even still a thing.

[agentx5]

On 10/11/2022 at 8:58 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

I'll see your 90 day return policy and do ya one more....

 

Price gouging policy: implementation of AH code that limits listing an item for sale above 25% increase over it's 3 year average price on the AH. The 3 year mark will roll as years past, but this is an inflation control measure to maintain homeostasis of the market economy while still allowing marketeers the ability to fluctuate pricing based on market trends.

 

 

That is... Actually a clever idea!

 

Few things to iron out though:

 

1. Need to have coding to handle situations where it hasn't been sold recently in the time period.  Too big of a period like 3 years is excessive and will waste server processing resources unnecessarily.  (Trust me, that's an issue at my work currently IRL with near 1000 employees accessing a particular database in the afternoon the server slows to a high-latency sluggish crawl)

 

2. The AH database has to log the date & time of posting, which it may already do but I don't know that for sure

 

3. The AH database has to be coded to be searchable by date and time

 

4. The AH database has be able to search and quickly calculate the +25% and -25% limits.

 

5. The AH client-facing GUI has to incorporate all this and probably offer a suggested price.

 

 

These are all 100% solvable, but the question would be "is the juice worth the squeeze" -- in other words is the time and labor invested to set this up worth it?

 

I would say absolutely, yes; but would need to do some pre-planning to see what can easily be done versus what would be a monumental task for whomever is doing the development work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Darkaiser said:

I have a couple of wild suggestions:

 

1) Fix the listings so I don't have to bid 1 and then look to see the bid history.

 

2) Keep the history at 5 but make the window expandable to 10 or 20 instead of 5. Helps people to see outliers instead of thinking that the last 5 is the new trend.

 

3) Set the market so that there is ALWAYS at least one of everything for sale. If an item goes to zero, the Market populates that item with one but at an insane price. That way, if someone REALLY wants it they can buy it. Might be useful as an Inf sick if those are even still a thing.

I really like items 1 & 2. 3? Not so much. Won't cry if it were to be implemented, unless people start listing their items at that price, but not really a fan.

[Ghost]

On 10/13/2022 at 9:51 PM, MistressOhm said:

 

Seriously, what part of "be patient" are you all not getting here?  Just because you can't get a Rare salvage at 500K "right now" does not mean an offer to buy one at 500K won't go through eventually;  on the next seed cycle, you'll get your salvage for the price you offered to pay.  

 

 

 

Exactly!

I still buy rates for 500k and yellows for 1500 daily.  I place the bud I’m willing to pay and go on about my business.  
Sometimes it buys while I’m still playing.  If not, when I log in the next day - there’s my purchase waiting on me.

[Greycat]

On 10/11/2022 at 2:42 PM, lemming said:

He's taking about Wentworth's, the Black Market, and whatever it's called in Praetoria (Auction House?)

Currency being Influence, Infamy, and Information which is all the same thing now.

 

They were separate for a bit and then put into the same bucket when it was pointed out to be silly to have separate ones.  (Could find exact timing on those if we wanted to delve into past patch notes)

 

Just to answer this sort of -  the blue and redside markets were separate at introduction. They stayed that way until the Going Rogue beta, when they realized what a hassle this was getting to be, especially when they were also going to introduce the ability to switch sides. (I *believe* the original thought was "Rogues and vigilantes can perform an important service by moving salvage from one market to the other!" ... which, no. That didn't get out of beta.)  Markets and currencies were merged (though the currency names were kept.)

 

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Going_Rogue

 

Quote

Note that Issue 18, released alongside Going Rogue, merges the market database between Wentworth's and the Black Market. This allows heroes and villains to auction off and bid from a common pool of items, and any character may use Wentworth's or the Black Market (restricted, of course, by zones the character can access).

 

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Greycat

[Galactron]

22 hours ago, Darkaiser said:

1) Fix the listings so I don't have to bid 1 and then look to see the bid history.

For the love of Paragon, this!  Please!

[Mr. Apocalypse]

On 10/11/2022 at 12:33 PM, biostem said:

I know some people are averse to farming, but a single run of an updated AE tunnel farm takes under 10 mins and yields enough tickets to buy a single orange piece of salvage, too... 

A single run of an AE mission set to standard rewards, (+4/8) usually earns me 3-5 pieces of orange salvage along with enough common IO recopies, if sold at any store for face value, to buy several more orange salvage.  I honestly don't see how anyone can complain about market pricing when Influence/Infamy is so simple to earn in this game.