Let us choose any Alignment power

[El D]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

What I WOULD support is NOT adding these powers to P2W but instead require they be UNLOCKED on the appropriate side, just like Patron Powers. As long as AFTER we unlock them we can use whichever of the 4 we choose.

 

Heck let us use ALL OF THEM, but have them share cooldowns.

 

This seems like a solid route to take, especially given that Homecoming's focus thus far has been on individual alignments having specific story arcs unique to them. Having the power reflect an investment in an existing or prior alignment - akin to a Day Job power, where it's unlocked after a certain amount of effort/time - but not requiring someone to stick to that alignment puts the focus more on concept and what content that character is meant to run.

 

Heck, could make the requirement 'This power will remain unlocked if you spend X amount of alignment merits' with Hero merits working for Hero/Vigilante unlocks and Villain merits working for Rogue/Villain unlocks. Or just outright make Vigilante and Rogue merits for that purpose, and give them an even exchange rate with pre-existing Hero and Villain merits, respectively. Gives them more of a purpose and provides players a reason to actually run those missions again. This would certainly get me to run some alignment content, which I haven't touched at all in months and months and months.

Edited October 27, 2022 by El D

[Wavicle]

Just now, Rudra said:

So since TyrantBux are gone, take away the last remaining incentive? I disagree with that sentiment.

Yea, we do disagree. I don’t think there should be ANY incentives that aren’t either content or unlockables. 

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, El D said:

 

This seems like a solid route to take, especially given that Homecoming's focus thus far has been on individual alignments having specific story arcs unique to them. Having the power reflect an investment in an existing or prior alignment - akin to a Day Job power, where it's unlocked after a certain amount of effort/time - but not requiring someone to stick to that alignment puts the focus more on concept and what content that character is meant to run.

 

Heck, could make the requirement 'This power will remain unlocked if you spend X amounts of alignment merits' with Hero merits working for Hero/Vigilante unlocks and Villain merits working for Rogue/Villain unlocks. Or just outright make Vigilante and Rogue merits for that purpose, and give them an exchange rate with pre-existing Hero and Villain merits, respectively. Gives them more of a purpose and provides players a reason to actually run those missions again. This would certainly get me to run some alignment content, which I haven't touched at all in months and months and months.

great idea!

[twozerofoxtrot]

This suggestion tracks with how things have been adjusted to prevent one style of of play from being more rewarding than others; from my perspective it aligns with previously stated Dev intent.

 

 

That said, as mentioned upthread the change is almost entirely driven by one, if not two, powers.  I'd suggest that if the Alignment powers change in their availability status, that the weaker powers are shored up to match the utility of the stronger ones.

 

Off the cuff I'd propose Duplicity and Fear Incarnate have double the strength of their effects.

 

[Wavicle]

@El D had a cool suggestion, which is the idea that you can use all the powers whichever alignment you are, BUT they will run out if you don't play as that alignment, and you could go play as that alignment to charge them up. THAT would make them an actual incentive, as @Rudra wanted, rather than the carrot and stick they are now.

[Rudra]

It's my understanding that the alignment powers were keyed to match what benefits the specific alignments gave. So hero/villain alignments got stronger alignment powers, while vigilante/rogue got to move between red and blue sides. So if all the alignment powers were to be made available to characters without needing to be that power's alignment, then the powers would need to be adjusted.

 

That means that the hero/villain powers would need to be nerfed or the vigilante/rogue powers buffed to be of equal power/desirability.

 

If that were to happen, considering there is no such thing as HeroBux or TyrantBux any more, then what would be the balancing factor between heroes/villains being stuck in their respective zones as compared to the vigilantes/rogues being able to go anywhere they please?

[Uun]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

If that were to happen, considering there is no such thing as HeroBux or TyrantBux any more, then what would be the balancing factor between heroes/villains being stuck in their respective zones as compared to the vigilantes/rogues being able to go anywhere they please?

Why is this something that needs to be balanced from a powers standpoint? Are rogues/vigilantes somehow more powerful by virtue of their ability to play more content and need to have their alignment power nerfed as a consequence? That is nonsensical.

[BrandX]

On 10/27/2022 at 2:35 AM, Wavicle said:

 

I don't know if others can see your alignment, but the issue is that it changes what contacts you get and what missions you can take. It also changes the names of Badges and Titles that you get. THAT has a big impact on roleplay.

 

Not sure how Badge and Titles have any effect on roleplay, considering I just saw them as meta, items to begin with.

 

As for contacts you can get, then I'd say either change alignment (at least it's much easier now than back under Paragon Studios).

 

However, if I was to think of it under the terms of the alignments, it feels Vigilante should be villain and Rogue should be hero.

[Uun]

The irony of the current system is that if create your character as a hero or villain and never change alignment, you never get Call to Justice or Frenzy. You have to change alignment and then change back (or complete a Morality Mission after completing 10 Alignment Missions). 

[El D]

Frankly, there's next to no detriment to being a Hero/Villain as is. Their alignment abilities are objectively better, they have access to an extra currency for reward merits only they can earn (while Vigilantes and Rogues can only convert into it at reward vendors for convenience - which already removes half of its exclusivity), they benefit even more from the constant focus on co-op content both before and after Alignments were introduced (RWZ, Dark Astoria, iTrials, Midnight Club/Cimerora) and the fact that all of the various event content, Ouroboros, post-alignment TFs like Khan/Barracuda, and the Signature Story Arcs all exist as 'Here's the Blueside and Redside contact for this so everyone can play it!' The only major thing any player might actually miss out on are a handful of task force/story arc badges, because even the accolades and powers those grant also already exist as yet another 'Here's the Paragon/Isles equivalent.'

 

Homecoming adding Vigilante and Rogue-specific content that requires that exact alignment to play and allowing Vigilantes into Fort Trident and Rogues into the Crucible was a step in the right direction, but 'you can play both sides' as a selling point for them doesn't really hold much water when the overwhelming majority of the major content in the game is already accessible that way by default in one fashion or another. IMO, Vigilantes and Rogues always should have had their own alignment merits to earn, with powers that were on-equal footing to the others so it actually became a trade-off rather than a detriment. That way players would have had a reason to actually keep playing morality missions and reaffirm those alignments, rather than changing once and never touching it again because 'what else is there to earn from it?'

 

The effectiveness of the alignment powers shouldn't be a factor in why someone picks a certain alignment - pigeon-holing someone into a narrow concept due to mechanical constraints, even relatively minor ones, is bad design. The Morality system always should have been about ways to engage with content, rather than locking certain rewards away. Alternate dialogue choices, paths through missions, or even unique arcs entirely should have been things for every alignment on the spectrum, like what the HC devs are doing now. Also this is a bit of a tangent but I wouldn't mind seeing a Vigilante/Rogue-specific mini-zone that Heroes/Villains couldn't get in as well. That'd cover all the bases, concept-wise, plus could put some of the surviving Praetorians in there (Marauder would make a great trainer) along with other NPCs who work with both sides/are currently shifting alignment like Frost Fire and Mercedes Sheldon. Heck, have it be a joint Vanguard/Midnight Club compound somewhere if it needs a particular a theming to counter the Longbow/Arachnos set up of the other two given that 'working with everyone' is the gimmick both of those groups have and they both work together already.

Edited October 28, 2022 by El D

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, Uun said:

Why is this something that needs to be balanced from a powers standpoint? Are rogues/vigilantes somehow more powerful by virtue of their ability to play more content and need to have their alignment power nerfed as a consequence? That is nonsensical.

It was a question of desirability. When the Live devs implemented side swapping and alignment powers, it was done with the consideration that there was very little reason for anyone to play a hero or villain when vigilantes and rogues got access to all the same content with the added benefit of being able to go to the other side to play with their friends there.

 

The answer was two-fold. Heroes got access to HeroBux for staying hero while villains got access to TyrantBux for staying villain. Those let heroes and villains buy recipes and other options in Fort Trident and the Crucible that were not available for purchase anywhere else. They also got more powerful alignment powers. Vigilantes and rogues got their alignment powers too, which were supposed to be desirably useful, just not as good as the heroes and villains got, but vigilantes and rogues could not buy anything the heroes and villains could. And if a hero or villain went vigilante or rogue? Their HeroBux and TyrantBux went away. Permanently. They had to go back to being a hero or villain and start earning all over again to buy the hero/villain only access options.

 

Now in HC, HeroBux and TyrantBux don't exist. Those hero/villain only purchase options are in the Merit Vendors for Reward Merits. So half the incentive to play a true hero or villain is already gone. So my question is, what would be the balancing counterpoint for heroes and villains being stuck in their respective zones if the last remaining incentive is taken away? I'm open to suggestions.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to correct unnecessary capitalizations. And again to add the Crucible's name.

[Greycat]

Don't like the idea at all. Though with the way the game's going, it'll probably happen, and come with an extra nuke you can use every 30 seconds.

[Akisan]

4 hours ago, Uun said:

The irony of the current system is that if create your character as a hero or villain and never change alignment, you never get Call to Justice or Frenzy. You have to change alignment and then change back (or complete a Morality Mission after completing 10 Alignment Missions). 

 

You can stay true, actually!  You'll get that power after running a Hero/Villain Morality Mission to reinforce your Hero/Villain alignment.

[PeregrineFalcon]

So the end result of this change is that it'll remove one of the last few reasons to ever play a villain character. Regardless of the intent, that's the effect it'll have.

 

So I'm afraid that I'll just have to say:

 

[Wavicle]

Just now, PeregrineFalcon said:

So the end result of this change is that it'll remove one of the last few reasons to ever play a villain character. Regardless of the intent, that's the effect it'll have.

 

So I'm afraid that I'll just have to say:

 

If that’s the only reason to be a villain character then THAT should be addressed. By that logic there’s also no reason to play a hero character, which should also be addressed.

[Wavicle]

Just now, PeregrineFalcon said:

Did I say ONLY? Where did I say only, Wavicle?

 

I specifically said, "one of the last few." What is the name of the planet that you live on where ONLY = one of the last few? I ask because it sounds like a strange place and I'd like to visit it some day.

Fine. What else is there?

[Akisan]

Well, being Hero gets you fist-bumps from Posi, but I think Lord Recluse's version of that is to... not issue a kill-on-sight order?  Been a while since I ran redside, sorry.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Of course, you can't just admit that you made a mistake. No, cause this is the internet where people aren't allowed to admit that they made a mistake. No, everyone else is always wrong, but you never are. Isn't that right, Wavicle?

 

Where did I say only, Wavicle? If you are unable to answer that question then I'm not interested in further discussion with you.

 

I said "Fine". That was acknowledging you are correct, you did not say "only". What else do you want?

Edited October 28, 2022 by Wavicle

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Anyway, different enemies, different story lines, different zones, RP reasons. That and no other players around, if you like that sort of thing, which most people don't, are the reasons that I can see why someone would want to play a villain.

These are the reasons why I play villains. Not Frenzy.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Wavicle

[SeraphimKensai]

I don't think this would add build diversity in my opinion, I think 99.5% of all characters would take the villain power for the recharge.

[Luminara]

I'd be satisfied if they just removed the 7 day timer after the first time for each of the powers.

[Wavicle]

I think Alignment should be essentially meaningless, except for contacts/content/badges/titles/etc, just like Origin.

 

I can see that there's a problem in that Heroes and Villains are at a disadvantage content wise. I don't have a specific solution for that. One would have to be found.

 

However, the idea that RP choices should have meaningful mechanical consequences is awful, just like it was for Origins.

[El D]

46 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I don't think this would add build diversity in my opinion, I think 99.5% of all characters would take the villain power for the recharge.

 

That seems like more a problem with that one Alignment power being objectively better, rather than a constraint that should be left restricting the entire rest of the Morality system. 'Everyone would take X power' isn't a reason to keep the system as the vestigial, ignored sliver it currently is - that's a reason to re-balance the alignment powers so there's an actual reason to pick one over the other (mostly by making the Rogue/Vigilante powers actually worthwhile to have). Alignment should have no mechanical difference on a character, and should instead focus on content/player choice as to why they remain a specific alignment.

 

If players could pick from each of the alignment powers that best fit their specific character - with each of them actually being serviceable options - and had to do so by actually running a Morality mission with some semblance of regularity that'd make the system a lot more active. Heck, at that point attach Alignment credit in more places to regular story arcs where players make choices. HC is already doing this in certain spots, but as an example of one where it doesn't exist but could take Graham Easton. The player's choice to spare (Hero credit) or kill (Vigilante credit) Sun Xiong could totally work for a progression point. Make alignment progression toward Morality missions more interwoven with the rest of the game and it'd be a lot more common to actually run them. Combine that with a repeatable Tip Mission contact for both Blueside and Redside and the Alignment content becomes much more readily accessible across the board.

Edited October 28, 2022 by El D

[BurtHutt]

On 10/26/2022 at 9:47 PM, Wavicle said:

Let us choose, probably at the P2W, any of the 4 alignment powers, regardless of which alignment we actually are!

No. 

 

Also, I am not a huge fan of all the short cuts the P2W vendor provides. Namely, the 2XP. 

 

HC took away a lot of the grind and I agree with some of it...but not all. 

[AlwaysAPrice]

Was just musing to a friend the other day that I'd like to separate the powers from Morality, make them a separate choice called Methods or something and make them either a Prestige Power pick at P2W or use the Field Analysts/Fateweavers to grant/swap them. So you can be labeled as Inspiring (Call to Justice), Intimidating (vigi Fear), Mischievous (rogue Confuse), or Violent (Frenzy) independent of whatever your Morality is, allowing for Inspiring Villains, Mischievous Heroes, Violent Vigilantes, Intimidating Rogues, etc., whatever combination suits you.