Corruptors vs Blasters

[Erratic1]

Just now, Snarky said:

I am committed to a Dark/Dark thing, but I drool over my Fire Blasters Nuke.  that thing clears rooms and cleans the walls as well.

 

 There is always a little envy when not playing Fire watching a Fire blaster go to town.

 

OTOH, let my Water/Kin get a full head of Fulcrum Shift and let loose with Geyser. Its quite satisfying....almost as satisfying as dropping Meteor with a Seismic Blaster.

[Outrider_01]

Snarky says one thing, what he meant was this

 

  

13 hours ago, Snarky said:

But....  In trying to find the best Dark Dark Dark Soul Dark Darkity BLACK Darkness I am slowly settling into a Dark Corruptor.

 

Of course I have a Fire Blaster. 

 

With no defenses.  No nothing. 

 

!!!🔥Except🔥Fire🔥!!!

 

🥰Roasting everything works 95% time.🥰

 

Am I missing something?  😖

 

Reworded to fit the narrative but

 

Fire/Dark/YourChoice

 

Tarpatch -> Rain of Fire -> Fire Breath -> Fire Ball -> SCOURGE!!!!!!!

 

They start running out of tar patch and fire because of their psuedo fear effect, fire breath and fire ball to put scourge into effect; scourge finishes off.  But alphastrike return fire is possible without defense; bit reckless solo but less effective because of fast pace IO slotted and incarnate teams than pre-IO. 

 

Started one a long time ago and been trying to get back to it but I always forget.

[Outrider_01]

Multipost crap browser refresh

Edited November 20, 2022 by Outrider_01

[Outrider_01]

Multipost crap browser refresh

Edited November 20, 2022 by Outrider_01

[Outrider_01]

Multipost crap browser refresh

 

COMBO BREAKER!!!! FINISH FIXING IT!!!

Edited November 20, 2022 by Outrider_01

[Troo]

14 hours ago, Snarky said:

best Dark Dark Dark Soul Dark Darkity BLACK Darkness

 

did you try Fire Dark Soul?

 

 

as far as Corruptors vs Blasters..

 

is it situational-ly tactical vs button-mashing?

imma mezz u  -vs- don't mez me bro?

chess vs whack-a mole?

 

  -vs- 

 

a team of 3 curruptors or 3 blasters? both should do well, but one is better than the other.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by Troo

[MoonSheep]

3 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Well yes, if you're focus is on buffs/debuffs, you're going to go Defender. But there is a meaningful damage difference between Defender and Corruptors.

 

are you able to link me any comparisons? am curious, i might have to build two on test later today if there’s not already a thread

 

with defs getting a +30% damage buff when solo and (for the sets that have them) stronger -res debuffs, i wouldn’t be surprised if for most solo encounters the damage out of a corrupter is actually less than a defender until scourge kicks in

 

i may be missing something though, has been a long time since i was a corr player

 

sorry if i’m hijacking your thread @Snarky, has been something i’ve wondered for a while!

[Snarky]

30 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

did you try Fire Dark Soul?

 

 

as far as Corruptors vs Blasters..

 

is it situational-ly tactical vs button-mashing?

imma mezz u  -vs- don't mez me bro?

chess vs whack-a mole?

 

  -vs- 

 

a team of 3 curruptors or 3 blasters? both should do well, but one is better than the other.

 

 

Its the Vamp thing more than trying for the best power combo

 

The great power of CoH is being able to design nearly any humanoid concept.  For this particular one the primary secondary and epic are dark ( or soul ). 
 

I was wondering all day long if the Rad with its inefficient DoT Snipe ( but so cool looking!) was actually better on a Corruptor 

[Snarky]

5 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

sorry if i’m hijacking your thread @Snarky, has been something i’ve wondered for a while!

I love an open topic and am curious about your question myself. For me it would not matter.  I team with Blasters and Corruptors.  One of the reasons I do not run MMs.  I just invite a Brute.  Instant pet.  Nearly as smart too!

[Erratic1]

4 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

are you able to link me any comparisons? am curious, i might have to build two on test later today if there’s not already a thread

 

with defs getting a +30% damage buff when solo and (for the sets that have them) stronger -res debuffs, i wouldn’t be surprised if for most solo encounters the damage out of a corrupter is actually less than a defender until scourge kicks in

 

i may be missing something though, has been a long time since i was a corr player

 

sorry if i’m hijacking your thread @Snarky, has been something i’ve wondered for a while!

 

While I know it has been discussed repeatedly over the years, I do not have any links saved. Still....

 

The Damage Scale for Defenders is 0.65 (ranged) vs 0.75 for Corruptors. Scourge averages a 30% boost to damage for a Corruptor (variable). Nothing else considered the Corruptor is ahead  1.3 * 0.75/0.65 = 1.5, or 50%.

 

A solo Defender gets damage boosted by 30% so the Corruptor is still up by 1.5/1.3 = 1.1538 or 15.38%. That leaves buff/debuff effectiveness. 

 

Taking Siphon Power from Kinetics as an example, for a Defender we are looking at a 25% boost to damage. For the corruptor it is 20%. So the Defender is ahead by 1.25/1.2 = 1.0417 or 4.17%.

 

Factor in the buff advantage for Defender vs Corruptor and you end up with (1.5*1.2)/(1.3*1.25) = 1.1077 or 10.77% damage advantage for the Corruptor.

 

 

The astute student of Corruptor vs Defender buffs/debuff will note there is some variance in the relative values between Corruptor buffs/debuffs and those of Defenders. In some places the value are a bit above what was indicated above while in other places it is a bit below. It is also the case the Defender damage buff falls off by 10% per team member. True, the Defender gives larger buffs to those team members, but in terms of what is experienced, the Corruptor sees increased damage output over the Defender. As goes the overall team, let's stick with Siphon Power for a moment and consider the impact of 4.17% more damage distributed over 8 team members--8*4.17% = 33.33%. Do note, that is not saying the Defender team is doing 33% more damage but rather you've effectively picked up 33% of another person doing damage. On a 8 member team the Defender is not getting his 30% damage boost and so the Defender/Corruptor damage difference is 1.5*1.2/1.25 = 44%, which is to saw the teams are probably coming out close to the same in terms of overall damage. Of course damage is not everything and the Defender is going to be providing better survivability to the group.

[MoonSheep]

22 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

While I know it has been discussed repeatedly over the years, I do not have any links saved. Still....

 

The Damage Scale for Defenders is 0.65 (ranged) vs 0.75 for Corruptors. Scourge averages a 30% boost to damage for a Corruptor (variable). Nothing else considered the Corruptor is ahead  1.3 * 0.75/0.65 = 1.5, or 50%.

 

A solo Defender gets damage boosted by 30% so the Corruptor is still up by 1.5/1.3 = 1.1538 or 15.38%. That leaves buff/debuff effectiveness. 

 

Taking Siphon Power from Kinetics as an example, for a Defender we are looking at a 25% boost to damage. For the corruptor it is 20%. So the Defender is ahead by 1.25/1.2 = 1.0417 or 4.17%.

 

Factor in the buff advantage for Defender vs Corruptor and you end up with (1.5*1.2)/(1.3*1.25) = 1.1077 or 10.77% damage advantage for the Corruptor.

 

 

The astute student of Corruptor vs Defender buffs/debuff will note there is some variance in the relative values between Corruptor buffs/debuffs and those of Defenders. In some places the value are a bit above what was indicated above while in other places it is a bit below. It is also the case the Defender damage buff falls off by 10% per team member. True, the Defender gives larger buffs to those team members, but in terms of what is experienced, the Corruptor sees increased damage output over the Defender. As goes the overall team, let's stick with Siphon Power for a moment and consider the impact of 4.17% more damage distributed over 8 team members--8*4.17% = 33.33%. Do note, that is not saying the Defender team is doing 33% more damage but rather you've effectively picked up 33% of another person doing damage. On a 8 member team the Defender is not getting his 30% damage boost and so the Defender/Corruptor damage difference is 1.5*1.2/1.25 = 44%, which is to saw the teams are probably coming out close to the same in terms of overall damage. Of course damage is not everything and the Defender is going to be providing better survivability to the group.

 

 

that’s a really clear desktop review thanks

 

looks like things are quite close. i have some time later this evening and will make both on test and see how they compare for damage per activation, e.g hitting something in a mission and the more complex situation of taking down something with larger health like an AV 

 

if corrupters come out significantly ahead i think it’ll sway me away from defenders for offensive buffers/debuffers. will do my best to be unbiased when testing 

[Uun]

20 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Off topic:  I am still near-irrationally angry about how "every build MUST taken Tough and Weave", partly because I hate taking a throw-away power, partly because as I'm leveling up and go "woo, another level!  Run to the trainer, check my document for the exciting new power aaand...  it's 'Tough.'  Whee. (heavy sigh)"

I have many builds without Tough/Weave or soft-capped defense. I use some of them for hard-mode/801 content. They do just fine.

[Erratic1]

2 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

if corrupters come out significantly ahead i think it’ll sway me away from defenders for offensive buffers/debuffers. will do my best to be unbiased when testing 

 

I am an original Offender, proselytizing the merits of offensively played Defenders from the beginning. I remember street sweeping Brickstown back in the day, well before Defenders got a 30% solo damage boost. I really wish I still had the screenshot of my original Rad/Elec Defender standing in the middle of a bunch of 5th Column as Thunderous Blast is animating. There was once member of the 5th Column leaning back like he could see what was about to occur. If I have moderated at all from back then, I would still advocate fully using your Defenders powers, which include blasts. 

 

Truthfully, there is little difference in how I approach playing my Corruptors and Defenders, just a difference in expectations. I am going to buff, I am going to blast. The slight difference is probably one of where I draw my joy from when playing one versus the other--what I am focusing on doing. With the Defender, it is making sure everyone is alive, endurance bars are not critically low, that there is a control free zone for non-melees to operate in, and of course blasting the minds of the bad guys. But doing those things is why I chose Electrical Affinity.  On the Corruptor, Kinetics is a well-regarded buff set. Even so, the need for the buffs interrupts what mama has come to do, which is rain some pain on the bad guys. 😁

[Troo]

3 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

if corrupters come out significantly ahead i think it’ll sway me away from defenders for offensive buffers/debuffers. will do my best to be unbiased when testing 

 

It could be combo to combo call, or even purpose/play-style.

 

I did recently take an Elec/Dark Defender past 50 and it was just missing some oomph. Re-rolling as a Corruptor with the exact same build turned out quite nice.

 

 

 

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

 

It could be combo to combo call, or even purpose/play-style.

 

I did recently take an Elec/Dark Defender past 50 and it was just missing some oomph. Re-rolling as a Corruptor with the exact same build turned out quite nice.

 

 

 

I think this may be true with a lot of the ATs that have overlap.  Unless MiDs and in game numbers are off my Nightfall and Tenebrous Tentacles cones on the Corruptor do as much or more than any of the 4 cones I have on the Blaster, individually compared.  The Nuke is 619 Corr to 791 Blaster.  It is a hit in damage across the board.  But.... It is not (looks furtively around) like a Sentinel (346)....  Also Defender numbers on all attacks for Dark are Waaaaaay below Corr

Edited November 20, 2022 by Snarky

[Astralock]

12 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I think this may be true with a lot of the ATs that have overlap.  Unless MiDs and in game numbers are off my Nightfall and Tenebrous Tentacles cones on the Corruptor do as much or more than any of the 4 cones I have on the Blaster, individually compared.  The Nuke is 619 Corr to 791 Blaster.  It is a hit in damage across the board.  But.... It is not (looks furtively around) like a Sentinel (346)....

Corruptor numbers have been bugged in game for a couple of years now by including Scourge.  Don’t rely on them.

[Snarky]

13 minutes ago, Astralock said:

Corruptor numbers have been bugged in game for a couple of years now by including Scourge.  Don’t rely on them.

I kept looking at that on MiDs.  (I do a little math)  So basically that is less than half damage of Blasters.  Which does not make sense Damn,.  This game is really tough to get anything besides "attack does good damage/"  "attack does low damage"  How can you program something and not have F-ing numbers to present?

 

Okay, parking Corruptor and rebuilding Blaster.  Sigh.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Snarky

[Uun]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

I kept looking at that on MiDs.  (I do a little math)  So basically that is less than half damage of Blasters.  Which does not make sense Damn,.  This game is really tough to get anything besides "attack does good damage/"  "attack does low damage"  How can you program something and not have F-ing numbers to present?

 

Okay, parking Corruptor and rebuilding Blaster.  Sigh.

In Mid's, unclick Scourge (bottom half of the screen under Inherent Powers).

[Snarky]

23 minutes ago, Uun said:

In Mid's, unclick Scourge (bottom half of the screen under Inherent Powers).

Thanks.  I spent all morning rebuilding my Blaster with the ideas I been running on the Corruptor.  Massive range increase, using the two disorient powers to get in to land soul drain, sacrificing 50% ranged def to about 25% to do it.  I think this will be quite playable.  I did one oddball thing and added the hard hitting Midnight Grasp with 5 Purples in it.  More for the Rech and Acc but curious to see if it will be useful.  I think even with the long animation I will see many instances while I finishing my PBAoE chain that someone might  get a good smack

Edited November 20, 2022 by Snarky

[Zect]

Def vs. corr dps comparisons are set-specific (even power-specific). That's because a large portion of Defender dps comes from procs. Therefore, how proccable your blasts are plays a significant role in how well you are able to compensate for def's lower damage scalar. Fire blast is nowhere as good on a fender as it is on corrs, for an obvious example. No scourge, no procs. (This in turn introduces other complications that muddy the picture even more, like how agility alpha is usually a dps loss for highly procced fenders.)

 

@Erratic1's theorycrafting is only accurate for characters with nothing slotted and no powers active, btw. The damage buff that vigilance gives you is the same as other damage buffs in the game, not an increase to the damage scalar. It counts against def's (lower) damage cap and is additive with enhancement damage slotting. In practice, that 30% is much less significant if you reasonably assume that most attacks are already at around 189-200% of base damage from slotted enhancements (then add in things like assault and assault hybrid that both corrs/defs like to run, etc.)

 

Anyway, in my experience from those cases where I have played the same sets on both corr and def, the def has never even come close to matching corr dps in a solo situation. It's generally around a ~20% dps loss for the higher-dps defenders. Though, that doesn't mean that fenders are necessarily bad; they are just more specialized. As a defender, your party is your dps. And while corrs may be better all-round characters, if the team is light on support I would rather be on a def than corr.

 

 

 

[MoonSheep]

5 hours ago, Snarky said:

I kept looking at that on MiDs.  (I do a little math)  So basically that is less than half damage of Blasters.  Which does not make sense Damn,.  This game is really tough to get anything besides "attack does good damage/"  "attack does low damage"  How can you program something and not have F-ing numbers to present?

 

Okay, parking Corruptor and rebuilding Blaster.  Sigh.

 

haha.. this was my exact experience last year, thought i had found a dream alt until i realised the same thing on mids 

[Frosticus]

Most offensive def builds will out dps and out survive the mirror corr while solo. Defs have higher self buff modifiers and more powerful debuffs.

It is actually fairly pronounced on some combos like poison w/ soul drain. Less so on some combos that don't properly use AT modifiers (like cold). 

 

Corrs massively outdamage defenders in high buff team situations and still provide "enough" team utility that they are almost always the better team choice with a few exceptions.

 

Blaster damage is front loaded. Corr damage is back loaded. The longer the fight the closer a corr gets to equalizing their damage.

[Major_Decoy]

On 11/19/2022 at 7:37 AM, MoonSheep said:

in my opinion i can’t see any reason to play a corrupter over a defender - stronger buffs/debuffs and damage mostly the same

 

I generally feel pretty similarly. But I rolled up a Traps/Beam defender and was just not having a good time of it. And I looked into, and it seemed like Poison Trap had the same -regeneration modifiers for Corruptors and Defenders and the Beam attacks also had the same -regeneration values, so I didn't see any reason not to make the switch.

[roleki]

6 hours ago, Snarky said:

I kept looking at that on MiDs.  (I do a little math)  So basically that is less than half damage of Blasters.  Which does not make sense Damn,.  This game is really tough to get anything besides "attack does good damage/"  "attack does low damage"  How can you program something and not have F-ing numbers to present?

 

Okay, parking Corruptor and rebuilding Blaster.  Sigh.

 

Mids is a great tool for laying things out visually, and it is invaluable at that... but their math,  Oooh, says here, the blaster does 25x as much damage!  Except, in the game the Corruptor is doing 45% -Res and after the first touch, every other tic is Scourging at that 45% -Res, and oh what's that over in the secondary?  It's a bonus nuke! Plus, whatever debuffs the Corruptor has applied are making everyone else's attacks hit harder.  

 

I used to be pretty big on Fire/X Blasters, until I started rolling Fire/X Corruptors. 

[Six-Six]

Here's how I categorise them in my head:

Blasters--Ranged damage, melee damage, some control, minimal armour. You look at me the wrong way, I kill you. You're too near, I kill you. You try to run away, I pin you down and I kill you. You dissing my lack of inherent def/res, I kill you.

Corruptors--Ranged damage, support, decent control, enough armour, possibly one or two melee hits. Sure I'll kill stuff with you. That guy giving you a hard time? I'll make him go on a time out while you chew on this happy heal pill. Oh and have some extra buffs and debuffs for your confused friends over there while you're at it... oh, they died. oh well, next mob.