Stalker v. Scrapper -- Power Selection

[Yomo Kimyata]

So I've been taking a little break from scrapping and leveling up some of my stalkers.  Now I absolutely understand the difference in the ATs and the playstyles and so on, but I've found it interesting to look at the power differences across sets.  Sometimes the balance is subtle, and sometimes I find there are scrapper builds that I would much rather play as a stalker not because I want high single target damage but because the powers work better for me.  I'm focusing on the difference between scrappers and stalkers, but on a broader basis it's mostly similar to scrapper/brute/tanker v. stalkers.  For the most part I haven't been delving into the difference between powers with the same name that might have different stats on City of Data (all hail Uberguy).  Here's what I see as the differences, and please sing out if I got things wrong or missed stuff:

 

 

PRIMARY:

All Primaries:  Lose Confront, gain Placate

Broad Sword:  Lose Whirling Sword; gain Assassin's Slash.

Claws:  Lose Spin, Follow Up; gain Assassin's Claw, Build Up.

Dark Melee:  Lose Dark Consumption, Soul Drain; gain Assassin's Eclipse, Build Up.

Dual Blades:  Lose Typhoon's Edge, Blinding Feint; gain Assassin's Blades, Build Up.

Electrical Melee:  Lose Lightning Clap; gain Assassin's Shock.

Energy Melee:  Lose Whirling Hands; gain Assassin's Strike.

Fiery Melee:  Lose Incinerate; gain Assassin's Blaze.

Ice Melee:  Lose Greater Ice Sword; gain Assassin's Ice Sword.

Kinetic Melee:  Lose Power Siphon, Repulsing Torrent; gain Assassin's Strike, Build Up.

Martial Arts:  Lose Dragon's Tail; gain Assassin's Blow.

Katana/Ninja Blade:  Lose The Lotus Drops; gain Assassin's Blade.

Psionic Melee:  Lose Concentration, Psi Blade Sweep; gain Concentration, Assassin's Psi Blade.

Radiation Melee:  Lose Fusion, Irradiated Ground; gain Assassin's Corruption, Build Up.

Savage Melee:  Lose Blood Thirst, Vicious Slash, gain Assassin's Frenzy, Build Up.

Spines:  Lose Quills, gain Assassin's Impaler.

Staff:  Lose Staff Mastery, Innocuous Strikes, gain Assassin's Staff, Build Up.

Stone Melee:  Lose Heavy Mallet, gain Assassin's Smash.

Street Justice:  Lose Combat Readiness, Rib Cracker; gain Assassin's Strike, Build Up.

 

SECONDARY:

Bio Armor:  Lose Inexhaustible, Evolving Armor, Genetic Contamination; gain Hide, Boundless Energy, Genetic Corruption.

Dark Armor:  Lose Death Shroud, Cloak of Darkness; gain Hide, Shadow Dweller.

Electric Armor:  Lose Lightning Field; gain Hide.

Energy Aura:  Lose Dampening Field, Entropic Aura, Energy Protection, Energy Cloak; gain Hide, Entropy Shield, Kinetic Dampening, Disrupt.

Fiery Aura:  Lose Blazing Aura, Fiery Embrace; gain Hide, Cauterizing Blaze.

Ice Armor:  Lose Icicles; gain Hide.

Invulnerability:  Lose Resist Elements, Resist Energy, Invincibility; gain Hide, Environmental Resistance, Invincible.

Ninjitsu:  Lose Shinobi-Iri, Seishinteki Kyoyo, Bo Ryaku; gain Hide, Caltrops, Smoke Flash.

Radiation Armor:  Lose Beta Decay, gain Hide.

Regeneration:  Lose Quick Recovery, gain Hide.

Shield Defense:  Lose Phalanx Fighting, gain Hide.

Stone Armor:  Lose Mud Pots, gain Hide.

Super Reflexes:  Lose Lucky, gain Hide.

Willpower:  Lose Rise to the Challenge, Quick Recovery; gain Hide, Reconstruction.

 

ANCILLARY:

Body Mastery:  Lose Conserve Power; gain Superior Conditioning.

Weapon Mastery:  Lose Caltrops; gain Physical Perfection.

 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

Now, let me start with one of my first alts on HC which was my Staff/Bio stalker.

 

Staff:  Losing Staff Mastery and Innocuous Strikes is no big deal.  The only stance I have every used is form of the Body, and you get that for free as a stalker!  Innocuous Strikes is a meh power with no real additional utility, and gaining a big ST damage dealer is great!

 

Bio:  I never really thought about it at first, but Genetic Corruption feels like an upgrade over Genetic Contamination.  The sleep really isn't critical, but I can slot a purple set in there that helps me with good bonuses.  Let's face it, we're not killing enemies with Genetic Corruption.

 

I later made a Staff/Bio scrapper, and yeah, it was not as good a build in my eyes.  

 

What are your thoughts?

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

For the most part I haven't been delving into the difference between powers with the same name that might have different stats on City of Data

It's worth taking a look if you get the time. You'll occasionally find some gems, like Power Crash. 

[nihilii]

9 hours ago, Bopper said:

It's worth taking a look if you get the time. You'll occasionally find some gems, like Power Crash. 

Literally came to post this. Power Crash changes from a skip on Scrappers to surprise Crowd Control on Stalkers. Would you like to spam TF and ET and have a third hightier attack in AS *and* stack a meaty cone on top? Why yes, yes you may. Please take a complementary 100% chance for AS stack with your cone my good sir.

[InvaderStych]

17 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

What are your thoughts?

 

Stalker Stone Armor is a revelation. Struggled to find a good fit for /Stone; turned out the answer was Stalker.

[StriderIV]

1 hour ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Stalker Stone Armor is a revelation. Struggled to find a good fit for /Stone; turned out the answer was Stalker.

I’ve heard you sing it’s praises! What do you think makes in shine on a Stalker over a Scrapper?

[SeraphimKensai]

5 hours ago, StriderIV said:

I’ve heard you sing it’s praises! What do you think makes in shine on a Stalker over a Scrapper?

They are both really good. The only difference is losing mud pots for hide. You get solid layered mitigation plus extra HP, an oh shit geode if you need it, and brimstone gives more damage. What's not to love?

[Bopper]

5 hours ago, StriderIV said:

I’ve heard you sing it’s praises! What do you think makes in shine on a Stalker over a Scrapper?

Depending on how you feel about losing Mud Pots, but the extra defense from hide really helps you get to those softcaps. 

[StriderIV]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

They are both really good. The only difference is losing mud pots for hide. You get solid layered mitigation plus extra HP, an oh shit geode if you need it, and brimstone gives more damage. What's not to love?

 

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

Depending on how you feel about losing Mud Pots, but the extra defense from hide really helps you get to those softcaps. 

Both fair points. I’ve recently rolled a Claws/Stone Scrapper I’m having a blast with. Going to have to think of what primary would go well with Stone Armor on a Stalker!

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, StriderIV said:

 

Both fair points. I’ve recently rolled a Claws/Stone Scrapper I’m having a blast with. Going to have to think of what primary would go well with Stone Armor on a Stalker!

If I hadn't already have an Energy/Energy stalker, I easily would've gone with Energy/Stone. So many big hitters

[Groovy_Ghoul]

5 minutes ago, StriderIV said:

 

Both fair points. I’ve recently rolled a Claws/Stone Scrapper I’m having a blast with. Going to have to think of what primary would go well with Stone Armor on a Stalker!

I would recommend Ice Melee, Fire Melee or Stone Melee. 

[honoroit]

when did stalkers get stone melee? bet its the business.

[Shred Monkey]

On 3/4/2023 at 6:37 PM, Bopper said:

It's worth taking a look if you get the time. You'll occasionally find some gems, like Power Crash. 

 

I sometimes wonder if I'm the only player in the whole game that realizes how exploitable Disrupt is.  I suspect most people don't even know where to look to find it in that list.

[Wavicle]

24 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

 

I sometimes wonder if I'm the only player in the whole game that realizes how exploitable Disrupt is.  I suspect most people don't even know where to look to find it in that list.

 I just don't want to deal with the end cost...

imo ALL "per enemy" additional end cost powers should have that element removed. Then it would be a great power.

[twozerofoxtrot]

Broadsword/Rad is a strange combo that ends up being very durable if you take Parry, because Rad ends up with a thicker coating of Defense between that and Hide + pools, on top of resists and the Absorb. 

 

Pretty pokey too. Meltdown into Build Up before a big fight is neat.

 

 

[twozerofoxtrot]

On 3/5/2023 at 8:36 AM, Yomo Kimyata said:

Willpower:  Lose Rise to the Challenge, Quick Recovery; gain Hide, Reconstruction.

 

 

I had never noticed this and now I want to try to build something ridiculous like an Elec/WP Stalker with Power Transfer proc in ever attack that's more click-heal than Regen.

 

Spoiler

It's not exactly good but it should be fun!

 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by twozerofoxtrot
lol. LMAO

[InvaderStych]

9 hours ago, StriderIV said:

I’ve heard you sing it’s praises! What do you think makes in shine on a Stalker over a Scrapper?

 

Let's be clear: /Stone armor is the business everywhere it is available. 😉

 

Edit: That is to say that I don't think it necessarily "better" on one over the other, but it plays slightly differently and I found it more fun on the Stalker

 

As to Stalkers:

 

It's already been touched upon, but the exchange of Mud Pots for Hide is bigger than it looks.

 

MP is a fairly big endurance sink, and if I have an aura it becomes a sink for slots as well. Dropping that for Hide means a more endurance efficient version of the armor set, and Hide really only needs one extra slot: 1x LotG +Rech, and 1 Kismet +ToHit are the way to go there, some builds could probably put the LotG elsewhere depending on slotting.  So instead of dropping 4 or 5 slots into MP, I drop 1 into Hide and run it for zero endurance cost.  Important note here: All of the toggles in the armor have the same endurance costs for Stalker/Scrapper, so the discount from dropping MP is significant.

 

Those Tasty Brimstone Criticals:

 

Seriously, this is the greatest gift to Stalkers/Scrappers since the release of Combat Teleport. A power in the secondary that actually generates critical hits. I *think* it is a 50% chance to critical from Hidden, but when I go back to look at CoD I can't find where I figured that out. For scrappers the Crit chance is boosted by ATOs, and on Stalkers it conforms to the whole "on-demand critical hits" vibe with the ATO that triggers Hidden.

 

It is important to remember that Brimstone is a 3-tick "Cancel On Miss" DoT, but unlike others of its ilk, the damage of the critical hit is for the full value of all 3 ticks, even if only 1 hits and the subsequent two miss/cancel.  @Bopper and I chatted about this a while back and the damage increase (I don't remember the exact value) is quite nice.

 

Of course this works identically on a Scrapper under the hood, but it feels more predictable/controllable with a Stalker. For example, the damage it adds to AS feels significant and if you're going to Crit with AS you're probably going to with the Brimstone proc.

 

Finally, it is absolutely hilarious to see the screen fill up with CRITICAL! when Brimstone crits on a saturated Judgment strike. It's meme-level damage, but it's one hell of a meme. No really, I think 3 ticks + a crit adds around 12pts to a Judgment strike because it is neutered by Area Factor. But it is one of the most hilarious things I've had a toon do in quite a while.

 

I'll try to get a screen shot next time I am on the toon, if I remember. 😛

 

Miscellaneous Debris:

 

Coming from Scrappers, it is interesting to be on a team with heavy melee DPS and lower threat value than I am used to generating. Doubly so underneath heavy, layered defenses and sitting at the HP cap. EE caps a Stalker with a single H/E/R piece in the default slot. I don't think it takes much to cap a Scrapper either.

 

Some numbers, a more skilled builder could likely do better.

 

 

Double Edit:

Mids is set to Attacked/Attacking so those are combat numbers. I usually over-cap to soak a debuff or two, and could probably iCap s/l if I wanted to dial back elsewhere. Recharge Debuff resistance is at 80%. Endurance usage is slightly lower in game; for some reason my Mids won't let me Boost properly. Toon in game is fully boosted to the point of OCD satisfaction over numerical effect.

 

 

2 hours ago, StriderIV said:

Both fair points. I’ve recently rolled a Claws/Stone Scrapper I’m having a blast with. Going to have to think of what primary would go well with Stone Armor on a Stalker!

 

Anything with hard hitting attacks and slightly longer activation times will make the most of Brimstone. Savage Leap and Lightning Rod will not trigger Brimstone, fwiw.

 

I went Fire/Stone/Blaze, but I'd lay odds on Energy Melee hitting harder.

 

I suppose I should update my thread on this one of these days. 🤣

Edited March 6, 2023 by InvaderStych

[StriderIV]

15 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Let's be clear: /Stone armor is the business everywhere it is available. 😉

 

Edit: That is to say that I don't think it necessarily "better" on one over the other, but it plays slightly differently and I found it more fun on the Stalker

 

As to Stalkers:

 

It's already been touched upon, but the exchange of Mud Pots for Hide is bigger than it looks.

 

MP is a fairly big endurance sink, and if I have an aura it becomes a sink for slots as well. Dropping that for Hide means a more endurance efficient version of the armor set, and Hide really only needs one extra slot: 1x LotG +Rech, and 1 Kismet +ToHit are the way to go there, some builds could probably put the LotG elsewhere depending on slotting.  So instead of dropping 4 or 5 slots into MP, I drop 1 into Hide and run it for zero endurance cost.  Important note here: All of the toggles in the armor have the same endurance costs for Stalker/Scrapper, so the discount from dropping MP is significant.

 

Those Tasty Brimstone Criticals:

 

Seriously, this is the greatest gift to Stalkers/Scrappers since the release of Combat Teleport. A power in the secondary that actually generates critical hits. I *think* it is a 50% chance to critical from Hidden, but when I go back to look at CoD I can't find where I figured that out. For scrappers the Crit chance is boosted by ATOs, and on Stalkers it conforms to the whole "on-demand critical hits" vibe with the ATO that triggers Hidden.

 

It is important to remember that Brimstone is a 3-tick "Cancel On Miss" DoT, but unlike others of its ilk, the damage of the critical hit is for the full value of all 3 ticks, even if only 1 hits and the subsequent two miss/cancel.  @Bopper and I chatted about this a while back and the damage increase (I don't remember the exact value) is quite nice.

 

Of course this works identically on a Scrapper under the hood, but it feels more predictable/controllable with a Stalker. For example, the damage it adds to AS feels significant and if you're going to Crit with AS you're probably going to with the Brimstone proc.

 

Finally, it is absolutely hilarious to see the screen fill up with CRITICAL! when Brimstone crits on a saturated Judgment strike. It's meme-level damage, but it's one hell of a meme. No really, I think 3 ticks + a crit adds around 12pts to a Judgment strike because it is neutered by Area Factor. But it is one of the most hilarious things I've had a toon do in quite a while.

 

I'll try to get a screen shot next time I am on the toon, if I remember. 😛

 

Miscellaneous Debris:

 

Coming from Scrappers, it is interesting to be on a team with heavy melee DPS and lower threat value than I am used to generating. Doubly so underneath heavy, layered defenses and sitting at the HP cap. EE caps a Stalker with a single H/E/R piece in the default slot. I don't think it takes much to cap a Scrapper either.

 

Some numbers, a more skilled builder could likely do better.

 

 

Double Edit:

Mids is set to Attacked/Attacking so those are combat numbers. I usually over-cap to soak a debuff or two, and could probably iCap s/l if I wanted to dial back elsewhere. Recharge Debuff resistance is at 80%. Endurance usage is slightly lower in game; for some reason my Mids won't let me Boost properly. Toon in game is fully boosted to the point of OCD satisfaction over numerical effect.

 

 

 

Anything with hard hitting attacks and slightly longer activation times will make the most of Brimstone.

 

I went Fire/Stone/Blaze, but I'd lay odds on Energy Melee hitting harder.

 

I suppose I should update my thread on this one of these days. 🤣

This is outstanding, thanks man! A lot of that makes sense as well! I’m more of a “scrapper” at heart, BUT the Stalker changes QUITE a while back I feel really made them much more “Scrappery.” I only really have one Stalker, my beloved KM/Ice Armor. Ran that combo on a Stalker because I felt it’s where it shined the most. 
 

Would love to try and do the same with Stone Armor (so long as I can find a concept). Fiery Melee seems cool since the revamp, and we all know how strong EM is. StJ, Psi Melee (which I know we both love) and Ninja Blade also stood out to me.

 

Edit: Hell, Ice Melee and Stone Melee both look like they’d work great as well.

Edited March 6, 2023 by StriderIV

[Yomo Kimyata]

19 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

It's already been touched upon, but the exchange of Mud Pots for Hide is bigger than it looks.

 

MP is a fairly big endurance sink, and if I have an aura it becomes a sink for slots as well. Dropping that for Hide means a more endurance efficient version of the armor set, and Hide really only needs one extra slot: 1x LotG +Rech, and 1 Kismet +ToHit are the way to go there, some builds could probably put the LotG elsewhere depending on slotting.  So instead of dropping 4 or 5 slots into MP, I drop 1 into Hide and run it for zero endurance cost.  Important note here: All of the toggles in the armor have the same endurance costs for Stalker/Scrapper, so the discount from dropping MP is significant.

 

I have, and I *will* talk more about this in the future, but in general giving up a damage aura for Hide is, in my books, a pure win across the board.  Mud Pots is possibly the best damage aura because of being able to slot Slow, but even so, I'd much rather 6 slot all my effective attacks than 5 or 6 slot a damage aura, generally.  Exceptions:  I need to slot superior avalanche somewhere; I had an extra power slot and wanted to put in one or more knockdown procs.

[InvaderStych]

Since we're talking Stalker power selection:

 

My rational side knows that a Stalker's melee damage mod means that Hybrid Core +dmg is the numerically superior option over time, but my creative side keeps reminding me that Double-Hit triggers out of the gate - particularly with AS or an AoE out of Hidden - in an alpha strike when the +dmg from Core wouldn't have time to have stacked.

 

Asking for a Stalker with each at T3 and an inability to commit to a T4. 🤣

Edited March 6, 2023 by InvaderStych

[StriderIV]

48 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

I have, and I *will* talk more about this in the future, but in general giving up a damage aura for Hide is, in my books, a pure win across the board.  Mud Pots is possibly the best damage aura because of being able to slot Slow, but even so, I'd much rather 6 slot all my effective attacks than 5 or 6 slot a damage aura, generally.  Exceptions:  I need to slot superior avalanche somewhere; I had an extra power slot and wanted to put in one or more knockdown procs.

I like this take. I typically love having a damage aura. That being said, when you’re on an character like a stalker where your goal is to just take out the biggest, baddest target ASAP… I can see why a damage aura may lose it’s value.

[Yomo Kimyata]

With respect to the primaries, the standard (especially for the older sets) is to give up the PBAoE for a single target AS:  Broad Sword, Claws, Energy, Martial Arts, Katana.  For the most part, I *like* the PBAoE, so I'm generally not going to prefer the stalker version unless I'm really gung ho on the whole single target thing.  Also, any non-standard Build Up power gets replaced with Build Up, and since generally the non-standard powers have more utility to me, I'm usually not going to prefer the stalker version:  Claws, Dark Melee, Dual Blades, Kinetic Melee, Radiation Melee, Savage Melee, Street Justice.  Psionic Melee is an oddball, since you replace Concentration with Concentration (which is *slightly* less powerful on the stalker) and I have no idea if the fact that it is not named "Build Up" means that the ATO proc does or does not work.  Also, on Street Justice, not automatically going to +3 for the combo system is kind of irrelevant since the combo system feels like it is pretty much always at +3 anyway.  Dark Melee feels like a double whammy -- lose all your PBaoe and the best build up variant in the game.  Guess what primary my first stalker was?

 

There are a few primaries where it looks mostly like a wash--losing an attack for a better attack in AS:  Fiery Melee, Ice Melee, Savage Melee, Stone Melee, Street Justice.

 

And then there are a few that look like pure wins to me:  Electric Melee, Radiation Melee, Spines, Staff.  I mentioned earlier that I don't generally love damage auras, and Radiation and Spines are made *much* better in my eyes with a fast single target attack.  Personally, I love Lightning Clap as a power, but I don't think anyone else on the planet would miss it.

[Hjarki]

On 3/5/2023 at 10:35 PM, InvaderStych said:

Hide really only needs one extra slot: 1x LotG +Rech, and 1 Kismet +ToHit are the way to go there,🤣

 

Hide is a poor choice for Kismet. Kismet requires the power be active for it to work and there are times (such as escorts) where you need to turn off Hide. Given the plethora of other options, it doesn't make much sense to put it in Hide.

 

3 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Savage Melee

I'd argue that Savage is far better on a Stalker than any other AT - and one of the best sets available to Stalkers.

 

The ST is extremely simple - a very fast rotation that only needs Maiming, Savage and Assassin's. You constantly maintain 5 stacks, so you have an EndRed/Recharge advantage over other sets.

 

For AE, you really only need Savage Leap. Unlike other AT, Savage Melee for Stalkers has a full power version of Build Up. Coupled with the increased ability to critical from Hide, this gives you a large radius alpha strike every 40 sec (before recharge).

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Hjarki said:

Hide is a poor choice for Kismet. Kismet requires the power be active for it to work and there are times (such as escorts) where you need to turn off Hide. Given the plethora of other options, it doesn't make much sense to put it in Hide.

Nothing wrong with putting it in hide. If you’re escorting someone you ought to be turning hide back on as soon as you are attacked.

[Hjarki]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Nothing wrong with putting it in hide. If you’re escorting someone you ought to be turning hide back on as soon as you are attacked.

Or you could put it in one of the other 4 defense powers you have that never get turned off.