Knock back option suggestion

[UltraAlt]

19 hours ago, CompSciNerd said:

First, I'm not of the opinion that knock back is never fun.

 

This thread is pretty much about why you shouldn't use knockback on teams instead of supply how to use it constructively on teams.

This is what I have encountered in game as well.

Making a second team build without knockback isn't a way to use knockback with a team, it is to give in to teammates that don't want other player's characters using knockback.

 

There are powers in game that there there to explore and use. I'm going to explore and use them if they fit my character conception.

 

I think that all powers can be used in a group setting. Teams need time to gel and learn to work with one another.

I love PUGs because I like figuring out how to use my powers to help a team to work with how other players are using their powers.

 

Players haven't complained about me using knockback since that first encounter when I came back. I might have over used it that first foray in with it (as I was out of practice), but no one has complained about me using it since then. If I recall correctly, I was just bumping enemies to debuff them and the team wasn't suffering for it.

I don't play level 50 content. The mindset at level 50 quickly shifts into a mindset of gameplay that I do not enjoy engaging with. It could have very well been a level 50 on the team that was complaining, but I didn't look.

 

I haven't been kicked from a team because I have a character with knockback power(s) in Homecoming. I think I may have kicked from a team been before the sunset. And, honestly, I think if I was, it occured in level 50 content like a Hami raid or something.

I've never complained about anyone using knockback on the teams I have been on. I can't even remember having to coach anyone about how to be helpful with knockback when on a team other than to be careful when using knockback in the Lost tunnels in the DFB because the walls are weak and a Lost can get knocked through a wall fairly easily and the whole mission has to get reset if someone doesn't have a PBAoE or Teleport Target which most of the time is the case. Once someone learns this lesson, they don't do it again.

 

[Greycat]

17 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Besides Energy Blast and Peacebringers is there anyone who actually would benefit from this in a big way? Everyone else has like 1 or maybe 2 such powers at most.

Seems to me, a better solution is simply to give Energy Blast users such a toggle. Maybe PBs too.

 

Neither my energy blast characters nor peacebringers would benefit from this in the least.

 

The *only* thing I'd want KB dropped from are *pet* powers, for the simple reason that they're not controlled by people (who should, in theory, have the ability to say "I don't want to knock things that way, this way would be more useful" and/or to learn over time.)

 

9 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Sometimes KB is a good thing and sometimes it's not. Giving us the flexibility to control it better is a plus, not a minus, especially since no one will ever force you to use said options if you choose not to.

 

We do have the flexibility to control it.

- Positioning and

- if (*generic*) YOU really don't want it, YOU can slot an IO.

 

As far as "no one will ever force you to use those options?" We ALREADY HAVE people trying to force people to slot IOs. I've had it happen to me, with people who have no idea how I play. One team, at least, said OK and then *actually commented* that they never realized you could do things like... blast enemies *toward* the tank. Another was so insistent I basically dropped and put them on an ignore list because of how they were about it.

 

So, yes, people *will* try to force others to use these options. I've already had that experience personally and have seen it tried to get forced on others thanks to the IOs... as predicted when they were created. Saying otherwise, especially if it's a toggle or P2W option, is just plain wrong.

[CompSciNerd]

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

Summation of the objections to a KB->KD toggle from other threads:
 

1. The existence of such an option could result in mandated use by teammates/leaders, forcing players to either accept the dictates of others ("Play my way or GTFO"), or eschew teaming.  If this option ceases to be optional, or leads to players being ostracized if they choose not to exercise that option, it would be detrimental to the game for many players, and give abusive players a strong foothold from which to begin building a larger community (in other words, the assholes might take over).
2. Knock is control, as effective as Holds when used well.  Powers with high KB, or sets with several powers which cause KB, are set to knock enemies back specifically so players can't use them as ghetto control right out of the box.  If the player has to pursue the enemy after knocking it back, it's more balanced.  KB->KD enhancements are allowed specifically because they require an investment, a slot which the player is dedicating to not Damage, or Endurance Reduction, or Recharge Reduction, or Accuracy, or some other attribute, thus maintaining a degree of balance across the entire build.  Removing that investment cost for the control offered by Knock would require a subsequent review and rebalance of every power and set affected.
3. There is no granularity with a toggle.  If a player wants certain powers to KB and others to KD, a toggle denies him/her that option.  Some players need at least one strong KB power to maintain distance from enemies.  Others enjoy having at least one power with strong KB simply for the entertainment value.  With a toggled KB->KD setting, it's all or nothing, which would leave these players with fewer options than they had without the toggle.
4. There are already ways to mitigate KB.  Being above an enemy when a KB power is used causes that enemy to be knocked downward, and that can be accomplished via Combat Jumping, Hover, Fly, Teleport, Mystic Flight, Combat Teleport, Speed of Sound's Jaunt, Mystic Flight's Translocation, jet packs, or even Hurdle, a power everyone is given for free.  Powers with KB can also be slotted with KB->KD enhancements.  Numerous single-target and AoE Immobilization powers prevent all Knock, as well as some single-target powers, such as Gravity Distortion and Cryo Freeze Ray.  Walls are remarkably easy to find in the game, and prevent enemies from travelling any distance, regardless of the magnitude of the KB.
5. Every set is designed with some kind of secondary effect to specialize it.  Some have multiple secondary effects, others are more focused.  KB doesn't exist simply to add flair or fulfill a thematic role in sets, it's also a form of damage mitigation, similar to Dark's -ToHit, and KB is more effective mitigation than KD.  The longer an enemy is in the air or bouncing backwards along the ground, the longer the ragdoll effect lasts, the greater the damage mitigation provided by KB.  Globally reducing KB in these sets would also globally reduce the amount of mitigation provided per power, as an enemy which is knocked down is able to return to standing animation more quickly, and sometimes ignores subsequent KD effects until it's on its feet again.
6. Creating and implementing a KB->KD toggle for a scant few sets would require developer investment and time, and compared to projects with wider appeal and/or more benefit for a larger number of players, 
7. No-one, in the entire history of the game, has ever been forced to play a character with heavy KB.  There are other sets, and with power customization, anyone can play a blasty pew pew character which looks like it's shooting pure energy but doesn't knock anything around.  Nor has anyone ever had a gun held to his/her head and given no choice but to remain on a team with someone who uses KB poorly or maliciously.  You don't have to play a KB heavy set, or team with KB users, if it bothers you that much.
8. KB isn't that bad.  People losing their shit because an enemy was knocked away from them and they were forced to press W for 0.5 second, or having to move forward a few feet on your own character, isn't the end of the world.  All life as we know it will not stop instantaneously, nor will every molecule in your body explode at the speed of light, if the W key is touched.

For more detailed breakdowns and arguments, type "KB toggle" into the search box (top right of the page) and review the previous discussions.

 

1) Someone noted this is already good protocol.  I have seen teams not let people on because of this.  People leave teams over this or have gotten booted over not handling KB well enough.  I am completely with you those teams are probably not worth being on anyway.  But... I t would still be a good option to have. 

So they have all MM teams playing now all the time.  Make a KB only team tradition in the game.  Have fun with it.  I think it would be a Blast (get it??).  I'd play on that. 

But this is moot point anyway.  If you and others are playing KB so crazy good, the strategies / techniques so well used, well liked and adopted why would people still have issues with this?  This is a rhetorical question.  (Ans:  Their not...)

2) I'm not getting your logic here.  I agree they are form of control.  So is knock down.  A lot of powers have control aspects.  Like cold for example.  If you like chasing down foes that's fine.  But as some of your other points even suggest foe scattering is highly dependent on the circumstances of use.  Are you open area, a cave, a building.  And they don't always scatter they way you expect.  You can use some of these things to you advantage, but it is not consistent for the player, much less the team.  And honestly, I don't care.  I would just like to see the option available to players to choose for themselves.  

Using an enhancement to mod the effect...  You can.  And a global option (toggle, etc.) would not change this... It really can't get my brain around why someone would want to "pay" for something that should already be theirs.  I am amazed how many are interested in paying for a power design short coming. 

BTW, you realize this ties you to one enhancement set if you want to get all the bonuses right?  Aren't you even a bit put off that you must slot your power one and only one way?  I mean it is already inefficient, much more so if really wanted to use a completely different set.  You can, but never the way you want if you weren't tied to this enhancement.  This is easy enough to fix.

3) Yes that is the point.  This is a good thing.  If you want the granularity use the slot method.  If you don't use the global method.  This is the whole point.

4) You are kidding right?  Flying above a mob in a cave, or a hallway so you effectively create your own ad-hoc knock down?  And walls, etc. are just fine if you can take the time to angle yourself just right, during team chaos.  And it works.  And you are not using a scatter foe power in your attack combination which would nullify the whole thing.  I'm just going to assume this was just not thought through.  You are exactly making my point for me.

5) I don't want to globally reduce KB.  I want to globally be able to switch KB to KD.  KB is a good mitigation technique.  So is KD.  As a foe gets up, you get a couple free swings at them.  Often if is enough to get rid of one of your lowbie foes.  You can't do that with KD ether because your chasing them, or waiting.  They both have advantages and disadvantages.  So why not have access to both?  If you really think KD doesn't give you enough time, and I think it is fine by the next attack knocks them back down, but we could talk about the idea of adding time to them being on the floor...  Now they are very close to the same effect.

6) Dev time?  I haven't looked at code, but it can't be that bad.  They already have the mechanic supported.  A bunch of code must already support this.  I don't think this is really that bad.  They have good group here.  There are moving in to making new sets already, tweaking others.  It just has to on their list.

7) I agree with nearly everything you said here.  I just think it would be more fun.  Better.

8 )  I'm not saying KB is bad.  I'm saying a global KD would be a (very) good option.  Desirable.  If it could be done on the fly as we had suggested at one point, I think that would be really cool.

9) I read a couple of the discussions, I had my own opinion and I thought I'd share it.  I think the people here have already given some really good ideas on how this could be made better.  We don't have to be angry about this.  It is a good discussion.

[Rudra]

35 minutes ago, CompSciNerd said:

BTW, you realize this ties you to one enhancement set if you want to get all the bonuses right?

Two if you want to convert KB to KD: Sudden Acceleration and Overwhelming Force. Though Overwhelming Force is a unique set so you can only slot any of its enhancements once. You can ask for more sets that grant KB to KD too, you know. No one would argue against more sets giving more options. In fact, I would really appreciate if the devs were to toss us a few more sets that gave that option so those that want the KB to KD effect have different options for their builds.

 

35 minutes ago, CompSciNerd said:

Aren't you even a bit put off that you must slot your power one and only one way?  I mean it is already inefficient, much more so if really wanted to use a completely different set.  You can, but never the way you want if you weren't tied to this enhancement.  This is easy enough to fix.

What are you talking about? There is nothing stopping you from slotting your powers however you want. My Energy Blast Blaster for instance has 0 KB to KD procs slotted. I have that character geared for pure damage. Anything I hit dies. If it doesn't? It goes flying away out of melee range to be finished off with the follow up shot(s). Who says you have to convert KB to KD to have a solid KB power set build? (Edit: I don't take that character on any teams other than friends because of how other players react to anything with KB. Those I play with when I use that character though? Haven't asked me to stop yet. I'm not dumb enough to run into a spawn of enemies and pop my nuke scattering them for instance. That is a troll move.)

 

35 minutes ago, CompSciNerd said:

You are kidding right?  Flying above a mob in a cave, or a hallway so you effectively create your own ad-hoc knock down?  And walls, etc. are just fine if you can take the time to angle yourself just right, during team chaos.  And it works.  And you are not using a scatter foe power in your attack combination which would nullify the whole thing.  I'm just going to assume this was just not thought through.  You are exactly making my point for me.

No actually, @Luminara is not making your point for you. Unless you are on an open field map, there is always a wall somewhere nearby to bounce foes off of regardless of if the map is a warehouse, office, cave, lab, or base. Or you can knock them towards the tank. Or you can knock them back into whatever area effects your teammates have set up. Or you can just waffle stomp them yourself. You can do your own KD effect by simply jumping over the target and blasting them. You can call dibs on mobs or entire spawns and just eat them. And you can do all that without ever slotting a single KB to KD proc.

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Rudra

[Luminara]

34 minutes ago, CompSciNerd said:

 

1) Someone noted this is already good protocol.  I have seen teams not let people on because of this.  People leave teams over this or have gotten booted over not handling KB well enough.  I am completely with you those teams are probably not worth being on anyway.  But... I t would still be a good option to have. 

So they have all MM teams playing now all the time.  Make a KB only team tradition in the game.  Have fun with it.  I think it would be a Blast (get it??).  I'd play on that. 

But this is moot point anyway.  If you and others are playing KB so crazy good, the strategies / techniques so well used, well liked and adopted why would people still have issues with this?  This is a rhetorical question.  (Ans:  Their not...)

2) I'm not getting your logic here.  I agree they are form of control.  So is knock down.  A lot of powers have control aspects.  Like cold for example.  If you like chasing down foes that's fine.  But as some of your other points even suggest foe scattering is highly dependent on the circumstances of use.  Are you open area, a cave, a building.  And they don't always scatter they way you expect.  You can use some of these things to you advantage, but it is not consistent for the player, much less the team.  And honestly, I don't care.  I would just like to see the option available to players to choose for themselves.  

Using an enhancement to mod the effect...  You can.  And a global option (toggle, etc.) would not change this... It really can't get my brain around why someone would want to "pay" for something that should already be theirs.  I am amazed how many are interested in paying for a power design short coming. 

BTW, you realize this ties you to one enhancement set if you want to get all the bonuses right?  Aren't you even a bit put off that you must slot your power one and only one way?  I mean it is already inefficient, much more so if really wanted to use a completely different set.  You can, but never the way you want if you weren't tied to this enhancement.  This is easy enough to fix.

3) Yes that is the point.  This is a good thing.  If you want the granularity use the slot method.  If you don't use the global method.  This is the whole point.

4) You are kidding right?  Flying above a mob in a cave, or a hallway so you effectively create your own ad-hoc knock down?  And walls, etc. are just fine if you can take the time to angle yourself just right, during team chaos.  And it works.  And you are not using a scatter foe power in your attack combination which would nullify the whole thing.  I'm just going to assume this was just not thought through.  You are exactly making my point for me.

5) I don't want to globally reduce KB.  I want to globally be able to switch KB to KD.  KB is a good mitigation technique.  So is KD.  As a foe gets up, you get a couple free swings at them.  Often if is enough to get rid of one of your lowbie foes.  You can't do that with KD ether because your chasing them, or waiting.  They both have advantages and disadvantages.  So why not have access to both?  If you really think KD doesn't give you enough time, and I think it is fine by the next attack knocks them back down, but we could talk about the idea of adding time to them being on the floor...  Now they are very close to the same effect.

6) Dev time?  I haven't looked at code, but it can't be that bad.  They already have the mechanic supported.  A bunch of code must already support this.  I don't think this is really that bad.  They have good group here.  There are moving in to making new sets already, tweaking others.  It just has to on their list.

7) I agree with nearly everything you said here.  I just think it would be more fun.  Better.

8 )  I'm not saying KB is bad.  I'm saying a global KD would be a (very) good option.  Desirable.  If it could be done on the fly as we had suggested at one point, I think that would be really cool.

9) I read a couple of the discussions, I had my own opinion and I thought I'd share it.  I think the people here have already given some really good ideas on how this could be made better.  We don't have to be angry about this.  It is a good discussion.

 

Summation of the objections to a KB->KD toggle from other threads.  Not a debate.  Not an invitation to a debate.  A list for readers to peruse and consider.

 

Trust me, peaches, you do not want me involved in this.  The train will be on fire and out of control before it's fully exited the platform.

 

[blue4333]

oh nooo letting energy blast have a toggle or no KB is powercreep omg!!!

lol it's not like energy blast has the dps capabilities like fire/ice when not slotted with KB-KD procs at all. plus it's smashing & energy damage, heavily resisted anyways.
What is freeing up one slot going to do? another 50/60 damage from a single damage proc?

annoying to see people gatekeeping playstyles in an archaic game running on life support.

[A.I.D.A.]

Knockback is free mitigation. People just need to learn to be more mobile instead of falling into the 'stand still and AoE' mentality trap that this game has become.

 

Power targeting snapshots when the button is pressed. Even if an enemy is knocked away mid-animation, they are still a target for the power. If your first instinct is to cry when enemies get knocked away from you, rather than to close the gap and keep fighting, are you really a hero? Don't cry over it and ostracize your teammates. Never do that. Only villains do that.

 

Remember, heroes: a villain who is on his ass, is a villain who is not kicking yours.

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Aida LaCanthe

[Rudra]

33 minutes ago, blue4333 said:

oh nooo letting energy blast have a toggle or no KB is powercreep omg!!!

lol it's not like energy blast has the dps capabilities like fire/ice when not slotted with KB-KD procs at all. plus it's smashing & energy damage, heavily resisted anyways.
What is freeing up one slot going to do? another 50/60 damage from a single damage proc?

annoying to see people gatekeeping playstyles in an archaic game running on life support.

No one is gatekeeping anyone's play style here. If you don't want KB on your powers, you can very easily slot the proc to change it to KD instead. That is why the procs exist after all.

 

Edit: Different power sets call for different play styles. Sometimes even in the same AT. Players that demand those using KB power sets slot the KB to KD procs are the ones demanding others play using their preferred play styles. We're arguing against the power creep of the suggestion. The desire to be able to use more enhancement slots to make their character more efficient by not having to slot an enhancement to change powers to work the way they would rather they work.

 

Edit again: I didn't find anything official, but I did find this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Cityofheroes/comments/c9yaot/general_enemy_average_damage_resistance_numbers/

Lethal: 14.60%

Toxic: 13.70%

Psionic: 11.19%

Smashing: 10.80%

Cold: 7.07%

Energy: 5.84%

Negative Energy: 5.51%

Fire: 5.34%

 

Removing the Archvillains/Heroes, Monsters/Giant Monsters, and Elite Bosses from the pool (leaving us with 571 enemies), these were the averaged resistances against each type.

 

Lethal: 14.32%

Toxic: 13.77%

Psionic: 10.60%

Smashing: 9.48%

Cold: 6.31%

Energy: 4.85%

Fire: 4.66%

Negative Energy: 4.54%

 

According to that, energy is not "heavily resisted anyways".

Edited March 8, 2023 by Rudra

[Wavicle]

Maybe there could just be one more set added with a kb2kd special but that has different slotting and bonus options than SA or OF, just for variety.

[Wavicle]

Or what about a set where the 6 slot bonus IS universal kb2kd?

[Zeraphia]

Just now, Wavicle said:

Or what about a set where the 6 slot bonus IS universal kb2kd?

IMO, that would be acceptable. Taking away proc opportunities and forcing 6 slots onto almost every damaging power is too high of a cost overall to a build. Giving up one set bonuses would be a lot less opportunity and a lot more DPS gained. I'd support the suggestion as an alternative.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Zeraphia said:

IMO, that would be acceptable. Taking away proc opportunities and forcing 6 slots onto almost every damaging power is too high of a cost overall to a build. Giving up one set bonuses would be a lot less opportunity and a lot more DPS gained. I'd support the suggestion as an alternative.

 

Now the question is, what kind of set is this? Universal Damage? Knockback? Is there another alternative?

[Wavicle]

Maybe something like this?

 

 

Focused Force (Purple Knockback Set)

 

Acc/Dmg
Acc/Dmg/Knock
Dmg/Knock
Dmg/End/Knock
End/Rcg/Knock
Chance for Energy Damage

 

2) 10% Movement Speed
3) 15% Range
4) 15% Accuracy
5) 6% Damage
6) Universal KB>KD

Edited March 8, 2023 by Wavicle

[Wavicle]

I made a thread.
 

 

[Wavicle]

It doesn't help for people levelling up...but I guess that's what OF and SA are for.

 

Or if it was a Universal Damage set instead then it wouldn't be locked to 50. Hmmm.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Wavicle

[Galaxy Brain]

The screenshots here (at the bottom cus mobile) may be a bit out of date, but I have had recordings of certain sets both with and without KB to KD.

 

For context, these were data sets taken from running my "Mission Sim" AE map to try and isolate primary performance for Scrappers and Blasters. Both were done on SO builds with basic slotting per power (3dam, 1acc/end/rech, etc), with the exception being when I re-ran with KD I also included +Lvl damage IOs to emulate the same exact stats (generally a +3 IO would make up for the loss of a 3rd SO when combined with a lvl 50 SO). Scrapper results below were the averages of 10 runs per set / set variant at 0/3 difficulty. Blasters were the same but at 0/8 in the screenshots.

 

Of note, for Scrappers I saw Claws and KM speed up by about 11% overall at low difficulty with the only change being Shockwave/Repulsing Torrent knocking down instead of back. This was in an office map without huge target saturation and it still saw a notable average performance increase, even with knocking enemies into corners/etc for best effect. 

 

On the blaster side we see more differences. Energy blast improved by 13%, Archery and Dark by 10%, old sonic by 11%, and AR by 14%. All shaved off nearly a full minute with sometimes minimal slot investment (Archery, Dark, Sonic all needed just 1).

 

Again, this was in an office map with plenty of walls, corners, doorways, cubicles, stairs, etc to abuse KB with. But between 20 runs total for each of the sets (10 with, 10 without), the KD was always faster to clear.

 

To me, this shows that KD seems to have more value than KB all other things being equal. A better analogy between the two may be something like an IO that turns a Slow into an Immobilize, or a Stun into a Hold. Both pairs do basically the same thing (limit movement, limit actions), but the method of doing so is better on one side than the other where they get rid of a "downside". Funny enough, all three examples have the downside of the targets moving about either forcefully or slowly via -Speed/Drunk Walk when stunned. 

 

What makes KB controversial is that it is too easy to "troll" with it compared to nearly everything else either intentionally or not. We have all seen or likely been that player who picks up Storm and uses Gale every chance they get. In a team, talking to the person spamming it either leads to them getting better with KB (push them to the wall/corner/towards the tank!), or getting kicked for not coordinating with their team the same as somebody running off and trying to solo away from the group each chance they get and screaming at the team about it. Its not a matter of KB itself but how it is piloted, just like other "troll" tactics. Combine that with how easy it is to misuse and the detrimental effects it can have to the multitude of area specific powers and you have a recipe for frustration from how another player using their powers effects how you play. 

 

That said, the measurable benefit of KD vs KB means I am in the camp that such options should have some form of drawback. It does not need to be harsh, as demonstrated with how I was able to get the same stats on the powers with an IO, but still something that players need to work with. If anything, KB should be buffed to have some sort of benefit to not only compete with KD/KU in the meta sense (making it more of a choice) but to also fit the theme. When superheroes get tossed 100ft across the room they definitely seem to be hurt more than if they were just knocked on their butts after all 😉

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Galaxy Brain

[SeraphimKensai]

On 3/7/2023 at 11:28 AM, 0th Power said:

I think KB distance should give bonus damage.

I remember proposing this maybe 3 years ago or so.

[0th Power]

29 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I remember proposing this maybe 3 years ago or so.

I knew i stole it from someone...

[Zeraphia]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The screenshots here (at the bottom cus mobile) may be a bit out of date, but I have had recordings of certain sets both with and without KB to KD.

 

For context, these were data sets taken from running my "Mission Sim" AE map to try and isolate primary performance for Scrappers and Blasters. Both were done on SO builds with basic slotting per power (3dam, 1acc/end/rech, etc), with the exception being when I re-ran with KD I also included +Lvl damage IOs to emulate the same exact stats (generally a +3 IO would make up for the loss of a 3rd SO when combined with a lvl 50 SO). Scrapper results below were the averages of 10 runs per set / set variant at 0/3 difficulty. Blasters were the same but at 0/8 in the screenshots.

 

Of note, for Scrappers I saw Claws and KM speed up by about 11% overall at low difficulty with the only change being Shockwave/Repulsing Torrent knocking down instead of back. This was in an office map without huge target saturation and it still saw a notable average performance increase, even with knocking enemies into corners/etc for best effect. 

 

On the blaster side we see more differences. Energy blast improved by 13%, Archery and Dark by 10%, old sonic by 11%, and AR by 14%. All shaved off nearly a full minute with sometimes minimal slot investment (Archery, Dark, Sonic all needed just 1).

 

Again, this was in an office map with plenty of walls, corners, doorways, cubicles, stairs, etc to abuse KB with. But between 20 runs total for each of the sets (10 with, 10 without), the KD was always faster to clear.

 

To me, this shows that KD seems to have more value than KB all other things being equal. A better analogy between the two may be something like an IO that turns a Slow into an Immobilize, or a Stun into a Hold. Both pairs do basically the same thing (limit movement, limit actions), but the method of doing so is better on one side than the other where they get rid of a "downside". Funny enough, all three examples have the downside of the targets moving about either forcefully or slowly via -Speed/Drunk Walk when stunned. 

 

What makes KB controversial is that it is too easy to "troll" with it compared to nearly everything else either intentionally or not. We have all seen or likely been that player who picks up Storm and uses Gale every chance they get. In a team, talking to the person spamming it either leads to them getting better with KB (push them to the wall/corner/towards the tank!), or getting kicked for not coordinating with their team the same as somebody running off and trying to solo away from the group each chance they get and screaming at the team about it. Its not a matter of KB itself but how it is piloted, just like other "troll" tactics. Combine that with how easy it is to misuse and the detrimental effects it can have to the multitude of area specific powers and you have a recipe for frustration from how another player using their powers effects how you play. 

 

That said, the measurable benefit of KD vs KB means I am in the camp that such options should have some form of drawback. It does not need to be harsh, as demonstrated with how I was able to get the same stats on the powers with an IO, but still something that players need to work with. If anything, KB should be buffed to have some sort of benefit to not only compete with KD/KU in the meta sense (making it more of a choice) but to also fit the theme. When superheroes get tossed 100ft across the room they definitely seem to be hurt more than if they were just knocked on their butts after all 😉

 

 

The only thing to note would be that this seems to test the Blast sets (correct me if I'm wrong) just based on either not that active secondary like Tactical Arrow which won't really vastly improve damage numbers and is also ranged, or almost entirely ignores that part of the conversation.

 

This is where shit starts to hit the fan for Energy where it becomes almost as bad as AR imo, because when you consider the biggest winner (Fire Blast) has nearly 100% synergy with Fire Manipulation the gap just widens immensely between what Energy can actually combo with without KD enhancements, and where other sets that didn't have to seem "bad" like Psy Blast, Psy Blast ends up doing very well for its ST chain and being able to do considerably better than these results would have you believe when paired with Fire Manipulation. 

 

That is why Psychic Blast/Fire Manipulation is still a popular speedrunning build. 

 

The problem is it's not just Energy Blast's synergy with Fire Manipulation alone, it's any sort of Manipulation set that likes to be in close range gets screwed by the KB sideways. 

[Galaxy Brain]

@Zeraphia, the tests did leave secondaries out of the picture by relying on Willpower (no offensive benefit) or just the sustain + build up on blasters. The mileage will definitely vary depending on the combo, but this vaccuum test shows the impact between KB and KD rather well I think.

[Luminara]

20 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

The only thing to note would be that this seems to test the Blast sets (correct me if I'm wrong) just based on either not that active secondary like Tactical Arrow which won't really vastly improve damage numbers and is also ranged, or almost entirely ignores that part of the conversation.

 

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/The_Scientific_Method/Independent_and_Dependent_Variables

 

[kelika2]

20 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

1. KB isn't that bad.  People losing their shit because an enemy was knocked away from them and they were forced to press W for 0.5 second, or having to move forward a few feet on your own character, isn't the end of the world.

If these were isolated incidents you might have a point, but in a group/task force situation those .5 seconds add up.  and becomes infuriating to think about its also .5 seconds per person

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

If these were isolated incidents you might have a point, but in a group/task force situation those .5 seconds add up.  and becomes infuriating to think about its also .5 seconds per person

 

I'm in favor of SOME kind of universal kb2kd option, but this argument is silly. Those .5 seconds add up to like a minute or two at most over the course of a TF.

[SeraphimKensai]

1 hour ago, 0th Power said:

I knew i stole it from someone...

Well chances are I stole the idea from someone else as it's a good idea.

[Luminara]

17 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

If these were isolated incidents you might have a point, but in a group/task force situation those .5 seconds add up.  and becomes infuriating to think about its also .5 seconds per person

 

If you're seeing multiple teammates drop what they're doing and chase things that move, the problem isn't KB, it's that you're teamed with cats.  Humans will generally ignore the enemy which has been knocked back, leaving it for the KB-user to deal with.

 

Don't team with cats.  Problem solved.  You're welcome.