Pets, Personal Attacks, How do you like to build your character?

[khy]

We have all heard the jokes about Petless MMs, and I've seen a ton of people make Attackless MMs (Relying on pets for 100% of their damage), myself included.

 

I've chatted with people about builds that forego T1 pets entirely, focusing solely on the stronger pets.

 

I'm curious what you guys think about these various build ideas. Do you prefer having one or two (Or all 3) personal attacks? What do you think of not using T1 minions?

[PaxArcana]

Pets, Buffs, CC, and naught else.  :)  That's how I roll MMs ...

[BelleSorciere]

I've been seriously thinking about respeccing out of the tier 1 pets at some point, and I pretty much always take 1-2 attacks (two with my demon summoner for more of that sweet -res to stack with tar patch, or drain life on my necro). Not sure if I want to give up the early pets yet, though.

[Fedifensor]

My bots/traps character took the second attack power for Robots because my only choices at level 2 were an attack power or Caltrops, and I didn’t want Caltrops (not high-tech enough for my character).

 

If I had more room in my build, I would take the AoE attack, but it’s hard to justify the power slot when I have so many other options vying for it.

[Galaxy Brain]

The early pets add way more dps and self-survival through bodyguard tho

[Nic Mercy]

In general, I tend to come up with a concept first, then see what AT/powerset combo comes the closest to making that concept a reality, and then I try to optimize as best I can within the limitations of the concept.

 

As for Masterminds specifically, I always take some, if not all, of the attacks, or at least some attacks from an ancillary pool. I don't like only being able to act as a passive nursemaid to my pets. I play an MM the same way I play a defender on a team. I make sure my team is buffed and cared for first and foremost, but when I know they are going to be fine I start blasting!

 

I do take all my pets because that's one of the things I enjoy about playing an MM, having that minion army.

 

I try to get all the unique MM enhancements slotted so my pets are sturdy but I also try to focus on my own personal survivability as well. Without me, the pets go bye bye. As long as I am alive, I can make more. :P

[Justisaur]

I've been seriously thinking about respeccing out of the tier 1 pets at some point, and I pretty much always take 1-2 attacks (two with my demon summoner for more of that sweet -res to stack with tar patch, or drain life on my necro). Not sure if I want to give up the early pets yet, though.

 

Isn't one of the demon's T1 pets the one that heals them though? 

 

I thought about that with Bots, but then where would I put all my pet globals?

 

Thugs most of the damage comes from the T1 arsonist

 

You could probably do that fine with Necro & Ninja - they go down like tissue paper anyway (though slotting OF +KD sounds like it'd be better)

 

I like to take the attacks early so I have something to do in DFB/AE lv 1 boss farms, then respec out of them later.  Yes I can just use Nemesis & Blackstaff, but those aren't as effective in comparison if you slot the prestige enhancements.

 

Demons and Beasts are a special case in that all their attacks have secondary effects are very useful, most sets have at least one that fits that description Lifedrain for Necro, Disorient in Bots, Knockdown from Thugs, which I try to fit in my build.

[BelleSorciere]

I've been seriously thinking about respeccing out of the tier 1 pets at some point, and I pretty much always take 1-2 attacks (two with my demon summoner for more of that sweet -res to stack with tar patch, or drain life on my necro). Not sure if I want to give up the early pets yet, though.

 

Isn't one of the demon's T1 pets the one that heals them though? 

 

I thought about that with Bots, but then where would I put all my pet globals?

 

Thugs most of the damage comes from the T1 arsonist

 

You could probably do that fine with Necro & Ninja - they go down like tissue paper anyway (though slotting OF +KD sounds like it'd be better)

 

I like to take the attacks early so I have something to do in DFB/AE lv 1 boss farms, then respec out of them later.  Yes I can just use Nemesis & Blackstaff, but those aren't as effective in comparison if you slot the prestige enhancements.

 

Demons and Beasts are a special case in that all their attacks have secondary effects are very useful, most sets have at least one that fits that description Lifedrain for Necro, Disorient in Bots, Knockdown from Thugs, which I try to fit in my build.

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I have beast, necro, demon summoning, and robots MMs. I was thinking of dropping the zombies, and I picked two attacks on my demon summoner.

[Dixa]

I've been seriously thinking about respeccing out of the tier 1 pets at some point, and I pretty much always take 1-2 attacks (two with my demon summoner for more of that sweet -res to stack with tar patch, or drain life on my necro). Not sure if I want to give up the early pets yet, though.

 

Isn't one of the demon's T1 pets the one that heals them though? 

 

I thought about that with Bots, but then where would I put all my pet globals?

 

Thugs most of the damage comes from the T1 arsonist

 

You could probably do that fine with Necro & Ninja - they go down like tissue paper anyway (though slotting OF +KD sounds like it'd be better)

 

I like to take the attacks early so I have something to do in DFB/AE lv 1 boss farms, then respec out of them later.  Yes I can just use Nemesis & Blackstaff, but those aren't as effective in comparison if you slot the prestige enhancements.

 

Demons and Beasts are a special case in that all their attacks have secondary effects are very useful, most sets have at least one that fits that description Lifedrain for Necro, Disorient in Bots, Knockdown from Thugs, which I try to fit in my build.

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I have beast, necro, demon summoning, and robots MMs. I was thinking of dropping the zombies, and I picked two attacks on my demon summoner.

 

necro damage comes from zombies and grave knights, not the lich. you would be gimping yourself mightly.

 

it's worth grabbing at least corruption on demon as it's ranged and has -9% resist debuff. the toxic demonling and toxic lt demon also debuff resists -20% each stacking. makes up to a point for not being able to slot achilles heel in the primary like you can with thugs and others.

 

but as you are not 50 I want to you understand something here - mm attacks do very poor damage. a defender will outdamage an mm just attack vs. attack. mm's have higher base endurance costs than the other at's. quite a few secondaries are too busy and end hungry to spam your attacks. your pets will need to be managed. you have too many things to do. this is part of the charm of being an mm, and a drawback for the more traditional mmorpg player.

[SmalltalkJava]

One of my most wanted things with MasterMinds is to come up with a build that actually uses the primary attacks.    I solo quite often, and I just wish i could find something that would work.  I mean, hell, I'm leveling up a new MM just so i can test out Sorcery Enflame pool power.    I want to try out of the box things, and not be just be a support toon for my henchmen.  I want to damage some also.  I want a little spice in my life.  Be someone that the henchmen can look up to. 

 

 

[Adeon Hawkwood]

All of my Masterminds have taken at least some attacks to give me something to do if nothing else. My current MM has 3 (Pulse Rifle Burst, Photon Grenade and Explosive Blast). Burst is useful for picking off runners while both Photon Grenade and Explosive Blast provide additional AoE damage and damage mitigation via knockdown (I've got the Ragnarok proc in Photon and the Overwheming Force proc in Explosive Blast). Additionally my Mastermind has Provoke and Taunt + Damage is more effective than Taunt alone for pulling aggro off my Bots.

 

Personally I think people underestimate Mastermind's ability to deal personal damage. Masterminds deal approximately 84% of the damage of a Defender and no one suggests that Defenders should skip all of their attacks. Masterminds anemic personal damage isn't really because their damage is low, it's because they don't get that many attacks in the first place and about half of their attacks that they do get come from Epic pools which have double recharge.

 

So yes, I think taking attacks to supplement your pet's damage is an excellent idea. In particular I recommend taking the AoE attacks. Pets don't have that many AoEs and the ones they do have tend to have quite long recharge times (since pets don't benefit from recharge timers) so a bit of extra AoE damage can help clear minions faster letting your pets focus their single target attacks on bosses.

 

Most MM sets have an AoE attack at level 8 (except for Necromancers) and most Epic pools have another one (except for Chill Mastery), why not give them a go? Lob Fireballs alongside your demons. Shoot grenades with your mercenaries. Summon tentacles from the netherworld with your lich.

[kelly Rocket]

Personally I think people underestimate Mastermind's ability to deal personal damage. Masterminds deal approximately 84% of the damage of a Defender and no one suggests that Defenders should skip all of their attacks.

Actually people tell Defenders all the time that they should not try to do meaningful damage, and that they should regard their Blast set as almost entirely for debuff, not for actually doing damage. I agree with that, personally.

 

And with most secondaries, I find I have more than enough to do without throwing pointless attacks on a Mastermind. I'll grab the AoE if the primary has a decent debuff attached to the personal attacks, otherwise no.

[Dixa]

While leveling before you have your tier 3 pet and your secondary isn’t fleshed out you should be using your attacks.

 

But you will find that an optimal mm build rarely has room unless you have a secondary with dud powers for attacks or even travel powers.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

Personally I think people underestimate Mastermind's ability to deal personal damage. Masterminds deal approximately 84% of the damage of a Defender and no one suggests that Defenders should skip all of their attacks.

Actually people tell Defenders all the time that they should not try to do meaningful damage, and that they should regard their Blast set as almost entirely for debuff, not for actually doing damage. I agree with that, personally.

My signature should tell you my opinion on the subject. Yes, the debuffs on Defender attacks are useful but if you aren't using them to deal damage you aren't doing your job.

[kelly Rocket]

Personally I think people underestimate Mastermind's ability to deal personal damage. Masterminds deal approximately 84% of the damage of a Defender and no one suggests that Defenders should skip all of their attacks.

Actually people tell Defenders all the time that they should not try to do meaningful damage, and that they should regard their Blast set as almost entirely for debuff, not for actually doing damage. I agree with that, personally.

My signature should tell you my opinion on the subject. Yes, the debuffs on Defender attacks are useful but if you aren't using them to deal damage you aren't doing your job.

I always have options that would be better than dealing miniscule Defender damage on my Defenders ;-)

[Redlynne]

I'm curious what you guys think about these various build ideas. Do you prefer having one or two (Or all 3) personal attacks? What do you think of not using T1 minions?

 

For me it's mainly a matter of (powers) slot pressure.

If I'm dealing with a Secondary that doesn't involve "Take All 9 Powers" then I'd want to pick up a few personal attacks out of the primary powerset.  But if I'm on a build that needs 6 power picks from the primary and 9 power picks from the secondary ... and that's before choosing Pool powers (1 for Hasten, 1 for Provoke, 3 for Leadership toggles, 1 for "travel" power) ... which point I'm already up to 21 power picks, and almost no room left over for personal attacks from the primary, especially if I want to get an Epic Pool too.

 

So in that respect, I view the personal attacks in the primary the most "expendible" options for being able to have enough power picks for all the things I want my Mastermind to be able to do.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

Personally I think people underestimate Mastermind's ability to deal personal damage. Masterminds deal approximately 84% of the damage of a Defender and no one suggests that Defenders should skip all of their attacks.

Actually people tell Defenders all the time that they should not try to do meaningful damage, and that they should regard their Blast set as almost entirely for debuff, not for actually doing damage. I agree with that, personally.

My signature should tell you my opinion on the subject. Yes, the debuffs on Defender attacks are useful but if you aren't using them to deal damage you aren't doing your job.

I always have options that would be better than dealing miniscule Defender damage on my Defenders ;-)

I find that very hard to believe for pretty much any Defender primary. There's no set that needs to spam buffs all of the time and in general if you're debuffing in the latter half of a fight you're wasting those powers and enemies that are about to due and would be better of just killing them. Keep in mind Defenders do about half the damage of a Blaster so a Defender who's blasting away is like having an extra half-blaster on the team.

[Coyote]

My Storm/Sonic is one of my higher-rated DPS builds. Not blasting on Defenders is generally a bad idea.

 

MMs will usually out-damage at least one of their Tiers, whichever is the more defense-oriented one. Maybe except for Robots, their personal attacks are really bad. Necro, Demons, and Beasts have good personal attacks, whether directly from damage or due to being able to add -Resist, -Def, or Pack Mentality with the attacks. If you had a power that gave a 9% -Resist debuff, it would be worth considering... and that's the secondary effect of the Demon attacks.

 

MM attacks are not as important as their pets, and take up slots in both powers and enhancements. But they can also be used for IO set bonuses, and they do noticeable damage, and they have other nice bonuses in addition to the damage done. Don't prioritize taking/slotting them over the pets, but they're definitely worth taking.

[Fedifensor]

My take is that you should be doing *something* useful.  It can be an attack, or a debuff, or a heal, but you should never just be sitting there waiting for your minions to defeat the enemy.  You don’t even have to take a mastermind attack power to contribute by attacking.  There are prestige powers like the Nemesis Staff and the Blackwand that have decent accuracy - especially if you’re running a fully-slotted Tactics and have some accuracy set bonuses.  It may not be a LOT of damage, but attacking the lieutenant or boss in a group helps reduce the overall time to kill that group, especially if your minions are using a lot of AoE attacks.

 

If your pets are at full health, and you’re placed buffs and debuffs to the extent you can manage, you should definitely be attacking.  Taking a mastermind attack power can help with this.  If your pets are on defensive, you can also draw aggro and spread incoming damage across the group instead of letting your foes focus-fire one of your minions.

[kelly Rocket]

Personally I think people underestimate Mastermind's ability to deal personal damage. Masterminds deal approximately 84% of the damage of a Defender and no one suggests that Defenders should skip all of their attacks.

Actually people tell Defenders all the time that they should not try to do meaningful damage, and that they should regard their Blast set as almost entirely for debuff, not for actually doing damage. I agree with that, personally.

My signature should tell you my opinion on the subject. Yes, the debuffs on Defender attacks are useful but if you aren't using them to deal damage you aren't doing your job.

I always have options that would be better than dealing miniscule Defender damage on my Defenders ;-)

I find that very hard to believe for pretty much any Defender primary. There's no set that needs to spam buffs all of the time and in general if you're debuffing in the latter half of a fight you're wasting those powers and enemies that are about to due and would be better of just killing them. Keep in mind Defenders do about half the damage of a Blaster so a Defender who's blasting away is like having an extra half-blaster on the team.

 

I have multiple Time Defenders... There are two factors at work here. One is I want to be slapping as many enemies with Time Stop as possible, or else I'm trying to perma-hold a boss/EB with Distortion Field+Time Crawl and Time Stop. On an AV I'm constantly refreshing Crawl and Stop for -regen. Between that and refreshing Distortion Field the instant it comes off cooldown (Because it stacks on itself), using Mending when needed, keeping Farsight and Chrono Shift up, etc, etc, I don't have a ton of time for blasting. I do throw my AoEs with my Time/DP, but it's for the debuff, I barely notice mobs hp bars move when I attack.

 

The second factor is that Time is an endurance hog, and I don't want to spend all my endurance blasting and come up short when I need to throw something important, or be out of endurance at the end of the fight and have to rest and hold the group up. That factor should become a non-issue in the future, once everything is fully slotted and certainly when the final build is complete with sets, but it's a big issue while leveling.

 

So a lot of the time the best use of my powers is to not use them, once I have sufficient mitigation in place, I often need to just let the endurance recover and not spam powers.

 

This all applies to my MMs too. ALL MM secondaries are end hogs (They have the end costs increased compared to Defender/Corruptor/Controller versions), and I have better things to do than blast, even if those better things to do are just micromanaging the pets. And I don't want to burn out my endurance blasting when I need copious amounts of it for my secondary.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

I have multiple Time Defenders... There are two factors at work here. One is I want to be slapping as many enemies with Time Stop as possible, or else I'm trying to perma-hold a boss/EB with Distortion Field+Time Crawl and Time Stop. On an AV I'm constantly refreshing Crawl and Stop for -regen. Between that and refreshing Distortion Field the instant it comes off cooldown (Because it stacks on itself), using Mending when needed, keeping Farsight and Chrono Shift up, etc, etc, I don't have a ton of time for blasting. I do throw my AoEs with my Time/DP, but it's for the debuff, I barely notice mobs hp bars move when I attack.

That's kind of my point, you're over-debuffing. I've got a Time/Elec Defender and I probably spend about 50-70% of my time blasting.

 

In fact, Time is probably one of the least time-intensive support sets out there. For regular enemies, you just toss down a Distortion Field at the start and then jump into the middle of the group so that Time's Juncture can debuff them and toss out Slowed Response before you start blasting. Total time elapsed: less than 5 seconds. Farsight, Chronal Shift and Temporal Selection take barely any time to apply, maybe a few seconds every other spawn. Time Crawl and Time Stop just aren't needed against most enemies, maybe take the time to hold the Sapper if you're fighting Malta but that's about it. Similarly Temporal Mending isn't really needed very often if you're properly applying your debuffs, sure sometimes a Scrapper or Blaster will pull more than they can handle but that's what Vengeance is for.

 

Similarly against AVs you're over-debuffing. Keep in mind AVs resist regen debuffs pretty heavily, I'd have to run the numbers but I'm pretty sure you'd contribute more DPS by attacking than the regen you're preventing with the pretty weak regen debuffs in Time (150% max compared to 500% in Rad and Dark of 1000% in Traps). AVs have about 85% resistance to most debuffs so that 150% regen debuff is reduced to 22.5%. Even if you do want to apply the debuffs Time Crawl and Time Stop take about 4 seconds out of every 20. Distortion Field is pretty much useless against AVs since they have such a high recharge resistance but again even if it isn't it's a 2 second cast time every 20-30 seconds.

 

As for defender attacks not dealing damage, my Time/Elec Defender can easily solo at x8, the minions die in a couple of cycles of my AoEs. The Bosses take longer to kill but I can definitely see them taking damage. Plus I can one-shot most minions if I've got Thunderous Blast up.

[Fichenchips]

Eesh, I never take primary attacks. Ever. I tried the life drain on the necromancy tree because I wanted a secondary that doesn't have heal. It felt like such a mistake. Fairly weak heal on such a huge endurance cost that also requires a hit check. There are several reasons I don't take attack powers.

 

1. Thematics. I am a mastermind. To me a mastermind is someone who sits back and has her minions to the work for her. The one who doesn't get caught because she has fall boys. My power is my brain, not my ability to fight. If I'm joining the fight, it feels more way less like a mastermind and more like a hunter from world of warcraft. Perhaps its also because I only play Villains and that's more of a villain mentality to sacrifice those less gifted than you.

 

2. Power economy. I need SO many powers, I wouldn't even know where I could fit in the time or what I want to sacrifice to get an attack power. Masterminds just benefit so much from so many difference Ancillary powers. Leadership auras, Medicine Heals, Presence Provokes/CC, Fighting Tough/Weave, Travel Powers. Speed's Quicken/Burn Out. There is seldom an Ancillary tree that doesn't have powers I want and that help so so much. Even when I played Nin/Pain, which has the least amount of powers I need from Primary/Secondary I still had NO issues finding something useful to take during those levels. I often have to convince myself to take a travel power early instead of something more useful or else Ill never get it.

 

3. High Endurance Cost. The damage isn't great, but whatever its more damage added to the damage pool. Unfortunately a lot of the secondary powers, basically any of them that have any kind of heal in it are very heavy endurance cost to maintain the things I need to. There are only a few secondaries that are both passive enough and endurance friendly enough to -allow- the endurance usage. Cold and Force Fields. Some of the other more endurance friendly secondaries, like Trick Arrow are so filled with activities there isn't a window to deal damage. If damage is my goal, then Trick Arrow's Oil Slick or Storms Tornado/Lightning Storm are my go to powers.

[Zumberge]

As I recall I took attacks on my Live MM, but not on the current one.  Not having down time is good; always being able to contribute in some capacity is helpful even if the damage isn't great.  However, it's a /Poison, so I'm throwing out debuffs at a pretty good clip.  Doubtless, more passive sets (FF) or sets with long cooldown times on their powers (/Traps) could benefit more from having attacks.

 

_{(Are you still an "honest healer" if you hire guys to do the fighting for you?)}

[Dixa]

It’s a good idea to take the first two attacks while leveling but once you get your tier 3 pet it’s generally time to drop them or keep one for its utility (demons,  beasts)

[Force Redux]

I usually do not take the attacks from the primary unless I'm Demons. Then I'll take 1 or two for the debuff. I do dip into Ancillary powers however for hold or immobilize powers, but not for our damage. That's for my pets to do. Exception: I use repulsion bomb from FF because it's very good.