Focused Feedback: Blast Power Set Updates

[CaptainIcyHot]

AR 

 

Before the kibitzing, AR needed some serious love so the focus is appreciated. 

 

Full Auto changes

 

90 degrees is not really what I want in a FA buff, especially without expanding the target cap to 16. The 20 degree looooong cone was interesting and unique. It also allowed for much easier aggro management than 90 degrees. You are just not going to miss aggroing the next group (or 2) very often. On average, FA is up about twice as much as a nuke. How about we don’t have the animation be twice as much as well? AR Full Auto was balanced around the loooong recharge blaster nukes with end crashes. Currently, Blaster nukes can happen every 35-45ish seconds with none of the historic downsides. A change to 90 degrees just doesn’t cut it.

 

My Full Auto change suggestions in order of importance:

 

16 targets (This alone would make it stand out.)

2 second animation time and corresponding Dot timing 

20 or 45 degree arc (45 puts it in line with all the other cones in the powerset)

 

Ignite

 

I’ll reiterate what most have said, Ignite was extremely situational at best. Incinerator is kind of boring and frankly, where do I get the slots for another single target ranged attack? It also doesn’t give the AR blaster another interesting category TO slot. That being said, it felt like the Dot ticks started very quickly (at least before the animation was done) and I didn’t feel locked into the animation like I used to with Flamethrower/Ignite.  

 

Beanbag to Aim I love! Beanbag was terrible and you are replacing it with a power I can utilize with gusto but also not be required to 5-6 slot the power to actually be of use.

 

Flamethrower, Sniper Rifle and Buckshot activation time reduction feels amazing! The time between clicking these powers and them executing used to feel almost like lag. Much more satisfying.

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by CaptainIcyHot

[AxerJ]

Changes are great, except I hate to lose Ignite. It was such a unique power. I'd much rather it be a bit buffed or tweaked than replaced with Incinerate. 

[Galaxy Brain]

7 hours ago, High_Beam said:

Okay here we go.  Walk of Test inbound!

 

*snip*

Awesome job noting these results! However, it is a bit messy to parse through given each test had a different build, and was against different targets (let alone different ammos). 

 

From the changes, it looks like each ammo has a slightly different stun or hold duration, and for Normal Ammo specifically it applies a Stun not a Hold, which could skew results when comparing say, Di Di Guns to Two Gun Trixie where one had lethal + stun and the other cold + hold.

 

Do you think you would be able to try one ammo per character, and attack the same specific enemy between Live and Beta to get a 1:1 comparison? 

 

 

Side note on AR, it may be worthwhile to see in-context the ST damage change by folks with Ignite + however they keep a boss still VS Incinerator without need of extra steps 🤔  Both versions cast in 2s, but Ignite takes 10s to apply full damage where Incinerator takes about half the time + does not need an additional 2-4 seconds of prep time to keep a target still.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Galaxy Brain

[eustace]

2 hours ago, Judasace said:

 

Please do not do this. I use this power to do numerous things the new power wouldn't do: Control where mobs stand and move, ignite my oil slick, throw it into the doorway in the Terra Volta reactor or similar places where mobs jam themselves up. This also strips the set of some of its AoE. I have enough ST damage, leave ignite alone and let us use it as intended.

 

 

 

This, too.  Sometimes even just a quick patch of Ignite by itself serves as enough deterrent for at least a few would be melee attackers. 

[Biske]

They took the effort to ensure Practiced Brawler remained an option for whichever people wanted it, and it frankly has about as much merit as Beanbag, so it seems only reasonable to ensure Beanbag remains an option for the goobers that are so insistent they get to keep their terrible power.

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, Biske said:

They took the effort to ensure Practiced Brawler remained an option for whichever people wanted it, and it frankly has about as much merit as Beanbag, so it seems only reasonable to ensure Beanbag remains an option for the goobers that are so insistent they get to keep their terrible power.

If you mean practiced brawler is akin to beanbag, this is false.

 

Practiced brawler is superior to master brawler in mag protection. I, and others, have noted this in discussions to change scrapper version of SR to match sent version. Sure, master is a toggle, but sacrifices stackable mag protection. No thanks on that change.

 

If that's not what you meant, disregard my above.

 

Feedback on the changes: 

 

AR wider cone is ok, AR needs an increase to max MOBs by 2, and a slightly quicker animation. This should still justify the fast recharge and not get too redonk. The cone could be 60 degrees also, worth an internal build test, 90deg x 80' is.... Big.

 

Psionic tornado down to 15 from 20 feet... Meh ok, but it's still underwhelming and skippable even with the slight bump in damage. What this power needs is a bump in proc chance of the KU from 50% to 75%+. As it is, sure it's faster and a bit higher damage, but still weak and unreliable for control. Better than before, but still skippable half the time.

 

Other psy changes, good steps, overall faster casting. I'm ok with the reorder, snipes at lvl 2-4 was a bit odd to me.

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by SwitchFade

[High_Beam]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Awesome job noting these results! However, it is a bit messy to parse through given each test had a different build, and was against different targets (let alone different ammos). 

 

From the changes, it looks like each ammo has a slightly different stun or hold duration, and for Normal Ammo specifically it applies a Stun not a Hold, which could skew results when comparing say, Di Di Guns to Two Gun Trixie where one had lethal + stun and the other cold + hold.

 

Do you think you would be able to try one ammo per character, and attack the same specific enemy between Live and Beta to get a 1:1 comparison?

I used cold on all of them, just didn't note.  sorry.  I wanted the visual queues of the hold sticking.  Because of the varying levels attacking the same mobs with different toons wasn't going to work.  But for each level the live and test attacked the same mobs.  I intend to do another long pass either tonight or tomorrow but I wanted to test something with the various levels vice all 50.

Edited April 7, 2023 by High_Beam

[WindDemon21]

12 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

If you mean practiced brawler is akin to beanbag, this is false.

 

Practiced brawler is superior to master brawler in mag protection. I, and others, have noted this in discussions to change scrapper version of SR to match sent version. Sure, master is a toggle, but sacrifices stackable mag protection. No thanks on that change.

 

If that's not what you meant, disregard my above.

 

Feedback on the changes: 

 

AR wider cone is ok, AR needs an increase to max MOBs by 2, and a slightly quicker animation. This should still justify the fast recharge and not get too redonk. The cone could be 60 degrees also, worth an internal build test, 90deg x 80' is.... Big.

 

Psionic tornado down to 15 from 20 feet... Meh ok, but it's still underwhelming and skippable even with the slight bump in damage. What this power needs is a bump in proc chance of the KU from 50% to 75%+. As it is, sure it's faster and a bit higher damage, but still weak and unreliable for control. Better than before, but still skippable half the time.

 

Other psy changes, good steps, overall faster casting. I'm ok with the reorder, snipes at lvl 2-4 was a bit odd to me.

 

It also gives a 60s base recharge 25% base absorb, it's way better due to that. I would KILL to have the sent version on melee characters. They also get a 30% base recovery boost too.

[ScarySai]

I can safely say we all agree that it's good riddance to beanbag, yes?

[eustace]

1 hour ago, oldskool said:

 

I do respect your thoughts here, but I think your argument needs some help. 

 

"Ability to reliably proc..." needs to be viewed in the context of what it supports. Using procs in a reliable way is a means to increase damage. The above suggests that the change to Suppressive Fire would lower its damage when using procs. That just isn't true. That isn't how it works on the Sentinel in the live part of this game, and that isn't how it works on the beta right now. [Sentinel is relevant since that AT has had that damage version of the power since at least 2019.]

 

The reality is, if you want to leverage procs less of damage will be left up to random chance and more of your damage will consistent in the power itself. This also doesn't account for the fact that bumping the base damage can be enhanced in a meaningful way. 

 

Let's put this more into perspective. I use just 1 purple proc in my Suppressive Fire. The other 3 are standard PPM. I also have 125% damage enhancement due to Musculature Core Alpha. All things considered, Suppressive Fire is my second highest DPA ability next to Executioner's Shot. Yes, both powers eclipse even Hail of Bullets, the T9 but are of course limited to single target. And that's on the Sentinel AT. 

 

Now, even without all the bells and whistles of my build the exact same slotting will net you around 204 expected DPA using the current Sentinel and the unchanged animation time. Using the exact same loadout on the Blaster AT the DPA of Suppressive Fire is 163. That's a bit less than using a procced out Dual Wield. It is substantially lower than Executioner's shot. Now, I happen to have a bias on using Apocalypse in Executioner's shot, but maybe other ATs want to put it in Suppressive Fire. That's a valid choice. You're DPA will go from 163 to 180 assuming no other damage effects on the Blaster. That's still lower than the Sentinel, and doing the same thing on that AT raised the DPA to 224. And, in both cases Apocalypse is still better in Executioner's Shot (hell, the whole set is better in ES on Blasters than piecemealing it in SF on live). 

 

All that to say, the damage component of SF and procs is overstated. 

 

HOWEVER.... 

 

There aren't a lot of better options in the current version of Dual Pistols in order to raise its overall damage output when considering a purely ranged damage rotation. Piercing Rounds, in its current state, isn't a really a strong alternative due to its long animation time. Hell, even loading it up on procs doesn't make it better than Suppressive Fire. This also means it isn't better for DPA on single targets than.... A proc heavy Dual Wield which is a T2 power. Of course, this is assuming no resistance reduction and on Live if you're using Incendiary Ammo for its damage component you aren't getting benefit from the resistance debuff (so this is a net loss for PR in that context).

 

So, Dual Pistols *does* have some numerical deficiencies built into its core kit. These are hard to ignore. Proc bombing Suppressive Fire is a smoke and mirrors approach to making that power viable. The test version of that power makes it better... for doing damage. 

 

That last bit there is bolded and underlined because here comes the REAL argument. 

 

Does Dual Pistols need this specific solution for ALL ATs? 

Could there be an alterative approach to allow Suppressive Fire to keep its CC method while making Piercing Rounds more attractive given it is a higher tier power? 

Could there be design space where the Blaster remains unique in having Suppressive Fire left alone because God knows that AT doesn't need more ST damage options? 

Corrs/Defenders abusing procs in a power like Suppressive Fire grants them DPA on par with the Blaster AT in that specific power. [Defender vs Blaster is a difference of literally 2 DPA, that's laughable] This is its own balance problem and this change could be taken as a means to correct that problem (though it likely won't). 

 

I think the point of my post is missed.  

Aside from the fact that I cant speak much to DP sentinels (as I only have one, and I've barely played it, while I have multiple DP blasters), I wasn't exclusively focusing on damage.  I was focusing on the fact that lowering that power's recharge means that, even if you don't slot it with recharge, its proc chance (according to the google docs sheet available through proc monster posts on these forums) drops by more than half, to around 55%, whereas it is currently over 100% when no recharges are slotted.  

So, if you're looking at it from a pure damage perspective, the damage becomes wildly variable (any combination of 4-5 enhances proccing about half the time, vs all 4 or 5 proccing all the time).  

But my main issue is that it makes slotting other more utility-based procs (like Lockdown or Stupefy) equally unreliable.  

Again, I'm all for the continuation of that noble (even if eternal) quest to balance the AT's.  

But I'd prefer it be done in a way that doesn't sacrifice such a wide array of possibilities just for more damage, especially as if THAT adjustment will fix whatever legit gripes someone might have about DP's overall damage output.  

[eustace]

18 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I can safely say we all agree that it's good riddance to beanbag, yes?

 

I don't.  

Either present it as an option or find another way to help the perceived shortcomings of AR.  

I have at least three AR toons, and I find it to be an invaluable GTFO power (when slotted with Stupefy kb proc) when an enemy is closing for melee attacks.  

It's also 100%+ proc chance with no recharges in it.  So, you have some options if you wanna try something creative on this or that alt.  

To me, replacing it (especially with Aim) is lame. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by eustace
Clarified how to enable GTFO mode for Beanbag.

[Mezmera]

For testing purposes using my DP blaster on the current HC version here's how the damage output looks.  

 

Against a lvl 54 Cimeroran Boss: 

 

Suppressive Fire: Apoc, Unbreakable, Nueronic, Ghost, Javelin and Net all procs firing with the max 90% certainty due to the longer internal recharge

342dmg at a dpa of 206; given a proc may not fire from time to time.

 

Using the next best attack in the set here's the damage:

Executioner's Shot: 5 remaining IOs from Apocalypse set all +5.  I didn't slot the Apoc proc here since at the recharge of this power it would be a sub 50% chance of firing.  

On the same boss it does 160dmg and 40 extra fire damage from the ammo.  So 200 pts with a dpa of 120.

 

That is supposedly the best attack in the chain and with the current setting on test for Suppressive Fire the internal damage will not surpass Executioner's Shot and the new proc rates will be sub 50% 

 

For giggles I logged in my Fire blaster and tossed a Blaze with a full set of Blaster's Wrath at that same boss for 490pts of damage plus it happened to proc the bonus damage from the set so a total of 560 for a dpa of 560

 

I'm not opposed to changing something if it feels so overpoweringly good but the set of DP as a whole is underwhelming dpa wise and we are kneecapping any creativity afforded it through procs with Suppressive Fire as it currently is which by the way is still trounced by a lot of attacks out there.  

 

So okay lets nerf this hold but can DP get something that can inherently hit a boss for 200+ dpa for starters then?  I say this from an objective standpoint that okay put this in live as it is, there's other power sets I can play.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Mezmera

[kelika2]

,is it too late to ask for an arc increase for Nightfall?

[Disruptor]

Ignite has numerous applications.

 

You can ignite where you are standing to deter enemies attacking you in melee range. You can use immob, caltrops or holds to Ignite single or multiple mobs. Ignite is really good in long stationary fights. Its one of the few powers that can be placed strategically.

 

Something doesn't have to be optimal to be fun. I'd rather leave Ignite as is than replace it with another standard and frankly boring single target attack. There is something to be said for the people that play and love sets prior to receiving reworks or significant buffs. Replacing Ignite just makes AR more similar to other blast sets.

 

In fact I'm of the opinion replacing Beanbag with Aim is quite lazy, instead of buffing or reworking Beanbag you're just homogenizing the set to be like all the others.

 

AR is my favorite blast set, most of my Defenders, Corrs, Blasters are Assault Rifle. The set has issues but its never been unplayable, in the past when I asked for buffs or help I never considered removing Ignite.

[WindDemon21]

14 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

If you mean practiced brawler is akin to beanbag, this is false.

 

Practiced brawler is superior to master brawler in mag protection. I, and others, have noted this in discussions to change scrapper version of SR to match sent version. Sure, master is a toggle, but sacrifices stackable mag protection. No thanks on that change.

Except you're forgetting the biggest part, is where master brawler gets a 60s 25% base absorb, which works WITH the scaling resistances when you use it at low hp. It's by FAR superior to practiced brawler due to this. I wish upon the devs forever to port sentinel SR over to melee. Especially cause it also gets a 30% recovery power too. Sent version is literally perfect besides the issues on the scaling resistances themselves, but otherwise perfect.

 

14 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

AR wider cone is ok, AR needs an increase to max MOBs by 2, and a slightly quicker animation. This should still justify the fast recharge and not get too redonk. The cone could be 60 degrees also, worth an internal build test, 90deg x 80' is.... Big.

I agree wholly here. While cones being too smaller is also a huge issue, this is actually bad having it be THIS big, especially when you factor in the extra range from blaster snipes. I think 60ft is the perfect placement where you don't need the snipe boost to use it effectively, but if you want it it's there and 90ft isn't too big, GIVEN, that I'd actually say 90 degrees is also too wide for a power like this. Like it definitely needed widened from 30 degrees, but 90 is way too big and doesn't even make sense. I think 45 degrees/60ft is about perfect for this power especially (if not mostly all cones)

 

14 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Psionic tornado down to 15 from 20 feet... Meh ok, but it's still underwhelming and skippable even with the slight bump in damage. What this power needs is a bump in proc chance of the KU from 50% to 75%+. As it is, sure it's faster and a bit higher damage, but still weak and unreliable for control. Better than before, but still skippable half the time.

 

Other psy changes, good steps, overall faster casting. I'm ok with the reorder, snipes at lvl 2-4 was a bit odd to me.

I'm still not a fan of losing the DPA by will dom moving to tier 1, but the sleep IS useful casting around with it now. I would press the issue since it does help it earlier, but overall I'd still stand by my reorder for mental blast to be the tier 1, tk blast tier 3, and keep will dom as a higher level attack. It's definitely better for more finished builds that way, the will dom only really helps out earlier builds, or those who choose to not get any attacks at all from the blaster secondary. It is otherwise, a pretty noticeable hit on DPA for the set by doing this.

 

Regarding psynado, the long dot kinda sucks, but it's sstill good damage. My main annoyance is that  they reduced it's radius, but 15 is still standard at least. You should NEVER skip this power. Instead, put the OF proc in it, and a force feedback proc in it. You won't be disappointed i guarantee it. They may not knockup as high, but, they'll stay in place better, and the OF proc also gives it MORE KD chance. I certainly wouldn't complain if they gave the power itself more chances to knockup, but that OF proc helps still.

[kelika2]

42 minutes ago, Disruptor said:

Ignite has numerous applications.

 

You can ignite where you are standing to deter enemies attacking you in melee range. You can use immob, caltrops or holds to Ignite single or multiple mobs. Ignite is really good in long stationary fights. Its one of the few powers that can be placed strategically.

The setup time is a damage loss overall.  And the fear effect was just too great otherwise.

[Wavicle]

I love the AR changes. With the improvements to FA and FT I don't need any more AoE from Ignite, so getting a third blast is a nice improvement. Beanbag was always skipped, so Aim is a BIG BOOST. Excellent!

[WindDemon21]

5 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I love the AR changes. With the improvements to FA and FT I don't need any more AoE from Ignite, so getting a third blast is a nice improvement. Beanbag was always skipped, so Aim is a BIG BOOST. Excellent!

Right. Like the sets fine on aoe without ignite, I just don't like losing it cause it's one of the only unique powers to leverage with the right synergy.

 

The problem IMO comes more from its small radius cause it makes it awkward for aoe, st, or as a "place at your feet keep away" power.

[FupDup]

Mechanically, Ignite is basically the same as any other "rain patch" power like Rain of Fire but with a smaller radius and a way stronger afraid effect, and no speed debuff like most of them get. If anything I think Full Auto is the truly unique power of the set because it's the only T9 blast that is a cone. 

[eustace]

26 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Right. Like the sets fine on aoe without ignite, I just don't like losing it cause it's one of the only unique powers to leverage with the right synergy.

 

The problem IMO comes more from its small radius cause it makes it awkward for aoe, st, or as a "place at your feet keep away" power.

 

So, perhaps a better "fix" would be increasing the radius, instead of replacing it with a more token single target shot.  

 

Or if everyone's day is really gonna be saved by replacing it, then maybe swap it with something that's another kind of "rifle shot" that AR doesn't have yet.  

All of the other attacks are representative of various rifle-like weapons - automatic rifle, sniper rifle, flame thrower, non-lethal (...at least for now).  

Maybe there's another type of gun that can be added to the AR's array of functionality, instead of just a generic "fire shot."

And it could be another utility power - stun, hold, etc, or, even better, a power that can be slotted heavier on utility or on damage...  kinda like the current Blaster flavor of DP's Suppressive Fire that everyone seems so keen on ruining.  

[TygerDarkstorm]

Wrong feedback thread; move along.

Edited April 7, 2023 by TygerDarkstorm
Posted in wrong thread

[LQT]

On 4/5/2023 at 8:57 PM, The Curator said:

Psychic Blast

Will Domination (Blaster Only)

• Renamed to Dominate Will
• Recharge lowered from 20s to 4s
• Cast time lowered from 1.1 seconds to 1 second
• Damage lowered from 1.24 scale to 1.0 scale.
• Moved to T1

Psionic Dart (Blaster Only)

• Renamed to Psionic Darts.
• This power is now a 10 target cone (60', 30 degrees).
• Recharge increased to 12s.
• Damage lowered from 1.0 scale to 0.8321 scale.
• Moved to T4

Psionic Tornado (Blaster/Defender/Corruptor)

• Cast time lowered from 2.37s to 1.83s. (Applies to Sentinels as well)
• Radius reduced from 20 feet to 15 feet.
• Damage increased from scale 0.89 to scale 1.1.

Scramble Thoughts (All ATs)

• Renamed to Scramble Minds.
• Now a chain.
• Cast time lowered from 3s to 2s.
• Main target will be stunned, additional targets might get hit with a randomized status effect of either Sleep, Immobilize, Placate, Terrorize, or Hold.
• Damage increased from 0.25 scale to 1.0 scale.

- Will Domination

Despite those changes Will Domination still ends up being the slower of the t1/t2 attacks because of animation for Blasters has a travelling component that is not only slower than the travelling component found in Mental Blast, but isn't present in the Ancillary/Epic powerset version of [Will] Domin[ation]e the new version of WD is more similar to after this change. Either the animation needs sped up to match one of Psy Dart's original benefits or just removed to match how Dominate functions and have the damage land instantly.

- Psionic Darts

For a blast set which is meant to boast a greater range than the others a 60' cone isn't exactly something to write home about, even if it is a 1s cast time. Umbral Torrent from Dark Blast is a 1.03s cast time and has a 80', 30 degree range by comparison.

- Psynado

Couldn't really tell much of a difference in the cast time since the test server has the same latency difference for me as the US servers, but even with the radius decrease it can still hit a large enough area for a suitable mob density.

- Scramble Minds [Blaster]

When testing Scramble Minds against the 5 Test Dummies in the RWZ the inflicted status effect animations occur before the power is even finishing activating.

Pre combat



Activating power, 4th mob already appearing under status effect.

 

Power finally firing.



Same result on other activations.



Multiple mobs affected.



 

[eustace]

Sorry if this has already been suggested, but maybe, judging from the dialog here, these changes - at least the AR and DP ones - would work better as Sentinel-only adjustments.  

 

In short...

Blasters, overall, are good with damage, but need survivability. 

Sentinels, by comparison, have survivability, but could use more damage. 

Instead of messing with Blasters and powers they need, just change Sentinels, swapping powers they don't need for ones they do. 

 

I'm not a hardcore number cruncher, so if anyone that is has the figures to dispute those claims, then that's cool.  

[ScarySai]

4 minutes ago, eustace said:

Blasters, overall, are good with damage, but need survivability. 

 

Assault rifle is one of the worst performing sets in the game on live, even on a blaster. The changes made are a very significant bump, particularly sniper rifle, aim, and flamethrower.

 

I don't really care what happens with ignite, as long as all that other stuff stays relatively untouched. The idea that only sentinel AR needs changes is completely untrue, though. 

[eustace]

7 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

 

Assault rifle is one of the worst performing sets in the game on live, even on a blaster. The changes made are a very significant bump, particularly sniper rifle, aim, and flamethrower.

 

I don't really care what happens with ignite, as long as all that other stuff stays relatively untouched. The idea that only sentinel AR needs changes is completely untrue, though. 

 

Fair enough.  One of my favs is AR/TA, and I dont think she has damage problems.  Maybe if I stood next to a fire blaster all day, I'd have more to complain about.

Of course, I'm typically a fan of any buffs to my damage.  

Just keep the hands off my beanbag, please. 🙂