What's the deal with Controllers at 50?

[VV]

So, I guess my question is this, if you are filling out your level 50 PuG, and you have the option for the last slot to go to a Controller or any other AT, which AT would you prefer, instead?

[blazingcoconut]

If I have no Brute, I take one.  Otherwise if I lack damage, Blaster or Scrapper if I lack support, defender or corrupter if I want buffs/debuffs 

 

If I don't know my team comp, then Brute.

Edited October 17, 2019 by blazingcoconut

[Hopestar]

You realize Controller still does good damage whilst crowd controlling thanks to their passive right? You also realize that not everything is dead instantly, controllers already have things CC'd so you CAN go all out on them otherwise you yourself would be CC'd by things like Malta, Carnies, Arachnos, etc. unless you're IO'd and Incarnated out, you're not immune to them and that's because Incarnates and IOs are not very balanced, the dev team obviously never getting to finish them. Saying controllers don't have a place on a team and not taking a controller because you think that is just plain wrong. I think the main problem is, no one is paying attention to the control that's being provided and therefore ignorant of the job Controllers/Dominators/etc. do in the same way someone would dismiss a Defender or Corruptor for not healing. Another factor here is that while what they're a master of is not easily noticed, they can also be a jack of all trades depending on their powerset combination, being just like HEATs and VEATs because "you're not the best at this ONE thing."

 

@blazingcoconut it seems like you're forgetting Controllers also have great debuffs and can do excellent AoE damage. Lots of small numbers instead of one big number is likely the culprit here, but try to understand that a Blaster and Scrapper have less AoE than a controller.

 

The point I'm trying to prove here is: Any AT can solo the entire game with a full kit (I've done it and I'm not even good at videogames) and no AT deserves to be left out of content because they're "Not good enough for my standards" and doing so is just elitism that belongs in the same toxic category as saying "lol ur bad uninstall".

[blazingcoconut]

1 hour ago, Hopestar said:

 

@blazingcoconut it seems like you're forgetting Controllers also have great debuffs and can do excellent AoE damage. Lots of small numbers instead of one big number is likely the culprit here, but try to understand that a Blaster and Scrapper have less AoE than a controller.

 

The point I'm trying to prove here is: Any AT can solo the entire game with a full kit (I've done it and I'm not even good at videogames) and no AT deserves to be left out of content because they're "Not good enough for my standards" and doing so is just elitism that belongs in the same toxic category as saying "lol ur bad uninstall".

I'm not forgetting it, I'm saying it is a near worthless contribution to any team in the endgame.  I have now 10 level 50 controllers of which 6 are fully IOd out.  A few of them can handle farms at +4/8 content on their own.  So I'd like to think I have a at least a decent handle at playing my favorite AT.

 

At 50, unless you are doing Hami, no one cares about control because things die so fast control is irrelevant.  On the content where things don't die immediately, short of Hami, control is usually rendered ineffective by high Mez resists or purple triangles. 

 

No, I would not leave a anyone off a team.  Most level 50 teams can handle under performing toons.  Controllers are not so terrible that your team is fail for taking them.  But, the team is worse for doing so.  Without control, a defender or corruptor will be better for buffs and debuffs while providing better damage with blast sets.  Without control any of the damage dealers will contribute more to clear speed.

 

Controllers do decent damage but they do it over time typically.  With nukes and incarnate nukes your damage you could provide is too slow and short of a few combinations worse than other ATs who can do a better job with buffing/debuffing.

 

Solo, controllers are great.  Kill speed is irrelevant and safety is important.  On small teams doing 8 person content they can shine.  On full teams I totally disagree that they serve any purpose that some other AT does not do better, assuming equivalent slotting.

 

There are ways to fix it.

 

Turning containment into something that does a debuff if you've applied a control to a mov regardless if it is controlled or not would be one way.  It would put them on par with defenders at least for offering support for a team.  But that would make a lot of solo controllers upset.

 

Making end game mobs toggle off defenses from being controlled would help.

 

Making end game mobs debuff the heck out of defense would help a ton.

 

Even adding a bucket of health to mobs slowing kill speed would help.

 

But every idea has impacts to other parts of the game.  So I don't want to see a quick change.  I would love this Dev team to think about how to make control relevant though.  So that when you pick the AT you actually do the role you figured you were going to.

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

I mean, if they wanna boost end game builds specifically they could make IO procs / incarnate procs benefit from Containment 

[VV]

It's funny that there is this exact same topic running in the Tankers forum right now (about Tankers being obsolete).

[VV]

On 10/17/2019 at 1:14 AM, blazingcoconut said:

If I have no Brute, I take one.  Otherwise if I lack damage, Blaster or Scrapper if I lack support, defender or corrupter if I want buffs/debuffs 

 

If I don't know my team comp, then Brute.

Brute??? Used to be Scrapper was my least favorite AT to add to my team, but nowadays Brute is. I'd rather almost anything than a Brute. Most brutes have zero force-multiplication, which is best for teaming. If I am going to skip a force-multiplier for plain DPS, I'd rather have a Blaster, at least they have nukes (most of them).

 

To be clear, I don't dislike the Brute or Scrapper ATs, specifically. They are great for soloing, but don't add much to a team.

[Frostweaver]

brutes are not force multipliers. They are the target for force multiplication.

and at proliferation made most AT's obsolete in the long run.

[Bill Z Bubba]

It amuses me to no end that there's some variant of "AT X is now irrelevant" thread for every AT.

 

There's also "I can solo at max diff with my X" threads.

 

We're all irrelevant and we're all awesome. What's the frelling problem?

[Sir Myshkin]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

We're all irrelevant and we're all awesome. What's the frelling problem?

“I know why you all choose to have your group therapy sessions in broad daylight...” clicks tongue “Look, it’s simple, just kill the Bat.”

 

”If is so simple, why don’t you do it?”

 

”Because if you’re good at something, never do it for free.”

 

 

That scene from The Dark Knight is all I can think of with these threads. I think they’re propaganda from other ATs to create chaos in the ranks. 

Edited October 19, 2019 by Sir Myshkin
Typo

[oedipus_tex]

The issue is really that late game is not very multi dimensional. They did take some steps toward that with the iTrials right before the game closed, but didn't get too far.

 

Controllers would be more relevant if there were more situations where blowing enemies away wasn't an option:

 

Specifically, to add value to Controllers, more enemies with toggle armors that add very high HP or Resistance but that detoggles when they get mezzed would be a good option. Adding some enemies that additionally have absurd Defense, so that powers like Quake/Arctic Air/Ice Slick/Repulsion Field that have no true ToHit check can shine would also be nice.

 

We may never see anything like that though.

[blazingcoconut]

On 10/18/2019 at 4:53 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

We're all irrelevant and we're all awesome. What's the frelling problem?

The comparison would be if defenders buffs basically stopped working against most content in the end game. At that point, what are they bringing to the table? They're are lousy blaster.

 

In the end game, many controllers end up being second rate defenders.  Because their primary controls no longer work, all they have to rely on is their secondary powers.  Yes that's an over simplification, yes there are outliers and exceptions. However, the problem still remains, in that the primary ability of the AT no longer truly functions for the 50+ game.

[VV]

2 hours ago, blazingcoconut said:

The comparison would be if defenders buffs basically stopped working against most content in the end game. At that point, what are they bringing to the table? They're are lousy blaster.

 

In the end game, many controllers end up being second rate defenders.  Because their primary controls no longer work, all they have to rely on is their secondary powers.  Yes that's an over simplification, yes there are outliers and exceptions. However, the problem still remains, in that the primary ability of the AT no longer truly functions for the 50+ game.

All I can say is that you are playing your controllers wrong. I'm not going to try to guess how because I don't know the specifics of your playstyle, but if this is what you have experienced, then you are definitely doing it wrong. Maybe just admit your incompetence in the AT and move on to others you prefer.

[blazingcoconut]

On 10/19/2019 at 10:43 PM, VV said:

All I can say is that you are playing your controllers wrong. I'm not going to try to guess how because I don't know the specifics of your playstyle, but if this is what you have experienced, then you are definitely doing it wrong. Maybe just admit your incompetence in the AT and move on to others you prefer.

Excellent, we're down to name calling.

 

Which of the following is not true?

1) Against AV/Monsters many controls do not work due to the purple triangle mechanic.

2) End game teams kill things at a speed that renders control inefficient against anything but #1

3) Defenders are better buffers and can offer easier to apply damage. 

4) Corruptor's have the same buff capabilities with a generally superior level of damage

5) Kill speed is the primary measure of success for many teams at end game.  It's not longer can you get through content but how fast

 

If you'd like to address any of those, I'm more than happy to debate.  I'm not going to get into an e-peen argument over my skill level as that's irrelevant.  I'd like to think I've mentioned that Controllers are my favorite AT despite their short comings in the end game.  I've also stated that I pretty much design them to solo now because it's an easier play style and your controls are actually needed to survive unlike pretty much all team based end game content.

[Hopestar]

On 10/21/2019 at 1:41 AM, blazingcoconut said:

Excellent, we're down to name calling.

 

Which of the following is not true?

1) Against AV/Monsters many controls do not work due to the purple triangle mechanic.

2) End game teams kill things at a speed that renders control inefficient against anything but #1

3) Defenders are better buffers and can offer easier to apply damage. 

4) Corruptor's have the same buff capabilities with a generally superior level of damage

5) Kill speed is the primary measure of success for many teams at end game.  It's not longer can you get through content but how fast

 

If you'd like to address any of those, I'm more than happy to debate.  I'm not going to get into an e-peen argument over my skill level as that's irrelevant.  I'd like to think I've mentioned that Controllers are my favorite AT despite their short comings in the end game.  I've also stated that I pretty much design them to solo now because it's an easier play style and your controls are actually needed to survive unlike pretty much all team based end game content.

1) One could argue that your ST hold can stack long enough to work on AV/Monsters, but that's a question of build so generally true.

 

2) Most teams I've run with that were end game (probably at least 100 teams by now), were pickup groups where it's not very organized, enemies are easily spread around, and lesser enhanced teammates tend to go down trying to "kill things at a speed that renders control inefficient" making the job of crowd control very helpful. Of course no one realizes it until you aren't CCing every pack of mobs and they're face-down. I'd say probably half the 'end game teams' are not actually prepared for endgame, though it's a bit easier to be now with the enhancement QoL patches.

3) Generally ST though where your primary generally gets a lot of AoE damage + control is just a bonus. Looking at you Plant/

4) Corruptors are superior to everyone.

5) Sure and holds and roots assist with that by preventing, for example, your Bonfire maniacs/Nova users/Fear-inducing teammates from scattering enemies all over the place.

[Coyote]

Fold Space has added new life to end-game Controllers. It used to be that on bad teams, controls were still useful, but on good teams they were sometimes worse than not using them because you prevented the Tank from clumping mobs. Now, you can Stun & Immobilize a bunch of targets, and bunch them up right next to the Tank for easy feasting even when the team doesn't need the controls for defense.

[Spectre7878]

I love controllers, but yeah they do feel like they bring nothing to the table at end game. I think for controllers to be more valuable in game. Would be to

 

1. Lower recharge on aoe mez powers. 

2. lower endurance on toggles (hot feet etc), they have enough endurance issues as is. 

3. Make pets earlier in the tier and make them more durable and damaging. Can’t understand why some pets are great and others just die all the time.

4. Make the tier one and two of primary do decent damage.

5. Ancillary attack powers more damaging. At the moment they don’t do much of anything. 

[Panache]

Y'all. Let this thread rest in peace.

[Azari]

Mind/Time 4lyfe

[Scarlet Shocker]