What builds/power sets are able to tank/solo +4x8?

[foosbabaganoosh]

Question in title, just curious if this is something commonly achieved by scrappers allowing them to serve as tanks in standard missions. Recently built out a WM/SD scrapper that I've been having a ton of fun with but wish I had just a tad more survivability when it comes to higher difficulty settings. Using information from builds here, I have positional defense at or near the softcap, and resistances fairly decent, but cannot survive a mob's focus.

 

Interested to hear what others have been able to put together in a scrapper that can take the damage while dealing it back!

[biostem]

40 minutes ago, foosbabaganoosh said:

just curious if this is something commonly achieved by scrappers allowing them to serve as tanks in standard missions.

The problem, IMO, is not general survivability inasmuch as it is that scrappers lack the general aggro management tools that tankers or brutes have.  I suppose you you slot confront, but even with provoke, you just don't have the aggro management tools to keep enemies on you...

[Yomo Kimyata]

I think there are two different questions here:  can scrappers solo +4/x8, and can scrappers serve as tanks (presumably in team play) for +4/x8?

 

I mean, the answer is yes for both, but...

 

I think just about anything can solo +4/x8 with a strong build and strong tactics, but it depends on how careful you want to be, how fast you can go and how much fun it is for you.  It's really tedious to do it unless you can keep your head above water for at least a few mobs in a row.  I think that if you are able to solo +4/x8 on any given scrapper, you probably have the skill set to do so on any other given scrapper.  Sure, some builds or sets will be better than others, but you're generally not going to just blindly run in and aggro a room full of boss carnies, for example, and hope to do well unless you are a lot better at this than I am!  

 

In team play, I think a scrapper is a poor substitute for a tank because 1. a tank's survivability is so much higher than a scrapper's, while its damage is only marginally lower, and more importantly 2. a scrapper will have a very difficult time keeping aggro off of its teammates.  I think just about anything that is able to survive an alpha can tank so long as the whole team is on board with it and knows that's the deal, but for the most part people won't enjoy that they are getting much more attention from enemies than they do when there is good taunt aura management.

 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Yomo Kimyata
pooor grammer

[SomeGuy]

This question a troll?

 

If not, yes. They can. Especially a WM/SD scrapper can.

[lemming]

Most of my built up scrappers can solo quite a bit of +4/x8 content.  Really depends on the debuffs for the most part.  You need to be a bit more dynamic in your play than with a tanker, or even a brute.  (though I also have some blasters that can solo +4/x8, normally at a higher risk, but for them it's kill first usually)

 

To Tank, the agro management tools are lacking, but if your scrapper can take the alpha while the rest of the team cleans quickly, it probably won't matter as much.

[Captain Fabulous]

Yeah, there's gonna be a LOT of people who claim their character can easily solo steamroll +4/x8 and honestly most of them are lying.

[honoroit]

under concentrated fire? tank/brute - and look at easy spines/fire. it works.

 

a plant / kin, a fire/ kin, a necro / / kin.

 

a tool'd the f to blazes fire blaster, but they are gonna lack sustain.

 

imo, brutes and tanks for farming, its what you see in AE lobby.

[Uun]

The scrappers with taunt auras (Bio, Energy, Invulnerability, Radiation, Shield and WP) will do a better job of managing aggro, but they still don't have the Gauntlet/Punchvoke tanks and brutes have.

[Ston]

Anything.

The game is pretty trivial at lvl 50, I'd bet you 2 billion influence that any combo can solo at least some +4/x8 enemy groups. Caveats are enemy groups that have large amounts of specific damage types or debuffs (e.g. Cimerorans, Rularuu, PPD).

Melee ATs are going to have the easiest time.

[Blackjoy]

17 hours ago, foosbabaganoosh said:

Question in title, just curious if this is something commonly achieved by scrappers allowing them to serve as tanks in standard missions. Recently built out a WM/SD scrapper that I've been having a ton of fun with but wish I had just a tad more survivability when it comes to higher difficulty settings. Using information from builds here, I have positional defense at or near the softcap, and resistances fairly decent, but cannot survive a mob's focus.

 

Interested to hear what others have been able to put together in a scrapper that can take the damage while dealing it back!

First off, this is a great topic for the forums.  Second the answers will be based on assumptions that you don't address.

 

17 hours ago, foosbabaganoosh said:

if this is something commonly achieved by scrappers allowing them to serve as tanks in standard missions.

As has been pointed out, you're asking two different questions.   On the first, soloing 4x8, IME, is NOT "commonly" done.   Mainly because the average player is not going to expend the time or money to achieve it.  In addition, soloing 4x8 is going to take a lot longer than teaming 4x8., so some players (like myself) find it somewhat tedious and less fun, even when I can do it.

 

The second question regarding tanks will depend on your definition of "serve as tanks."  If "tanking" is simply taking an alpha from each mob, then the answer is an absolute yes.  On a 4x8 team (which typically includes support), a scrapper can absolutely go from group to group and take the first hit.   However, if "tanking" involves locking down aggro like a  tank who uses Taunt, then the answer is an a definite no.  Some scrappers have taunt auras which can have some effect, but they can't reliably hold aggro on a 4x8.  And remember, when you're at x8, you're going to invariably aggro adjacent groups and a scrapper will have no chance at containing that.  

 

That having been said, if you're in a competent 4x8 group, especially one with multiple buff/debuff sets, almost anyone can serve as an alpha-taker and psuedo tank.

 

17 hours ago, foosbabaganoosh said:

Interested to hear what others have been able to put together in a scrapper that can take the damage while dealing it back!

So apart from your question about "tanking" you seem to be asking about the peak power of scrappers.  I can tell you from my own experience, yes, scrappers can reliably solo 4x8, but it's not trivial to achieve this.  My DM/SR can solo any 4x8 group that I've come across without using click Incarnates or Inspirations.  Now, given that it's /SR, there is always a chance I can go down, but nothing gives me trepidation.   And I do NOT have Tough or Weave on my build.  Nor do I have Mids, so I had to spend about 5-6 hours of in-game research and two respecs.  I also put in about 300+m Influence and it has the +3 level shift (though I could solo any non-Incarnate 4x8 without Incarnate powers).  

 

Conversely, my Staff/Willpower scrapper can only solo some 4x8.  Again, the build does not have Tough or Weave or a bunch of accolades.  I am not sure what level shift.  I put in about 200m Influence, but again, I do not have Mids.  Nor have I put in any real effort creating a build.  Haven't even respec'd him.

 

As someone said, lots of AT's can solo 4x8, the question is how fast and how safe....and are you popping Inspirations.    

 

Soloing 4x8 is generally a question of whether you can cap your +DEF.   Scrapper secondaries that can do this can generally solo 4x8.   That having been said, the toughest scrapper I've seen was a /Radiation Armor.   He did cycle Shadow Meld.  

[Blackjoy]

10 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Yeah, there's gonna be a LOT of people who claim their character can easily solo steamroll +4/x8 and honestly most of them are lying.

I don't know about lying, but there's a difference between being able to solo a 4x8 group and being able to solo all 4x8 groups.

[Arcadio]

1 hour ago, Blackjoy said:

I don't know about lying, but there's a difference between being able to solo a 4x8 group and being able to solo all 4x8 groups.

Even then there's using inspirations or not, relying on barrier or not, leaning on lore pets etc. People just have different opinions on what soloing 4/8 means to them that not everyone will agree on.

[BuiltDifferent5]

29 minutes ago, Arcadio said:

Even then there's using inspirations or not, relying on barrier or not, leaning on lore pets etc. People just have different opinions on what soloing 4/8 means to them that not everyone will agree on.

4x8 NO INSPIRATIONS, NO PETS, NO INCARNATES, NO POWERS, ONLY BRAWL. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

I can tell you from my own experience, yes, scrappers can reliably solo 4x8, but it's not trivial to achieve this.

 

Definitely not trivial with scrappers.  In my (limited) experience with tanks, it's pretty trivial there.

 

2 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

That having been said, the toughest scrapper I've seen was a /Radiation Armor.   He did cycle Shadow Meld.  

 

Most of my scrappers have at least one "oh noes!" button like Shadow Meld or Unleash Potential, but they don't necessarily need to be defense based (although defense is certainly the cheapest easiest mitigation), especially if your alt has little or no defense debuff resistance.

[Frosticus]

You'll always find a bit of selective filtering in these types of conversations. Ignoring some tanks, it is hard to build something that is truly damage agnostic.

As an example my sav/shield stalker thrives against Cims because ageless radial+double stacked active defense makes it essentially immune to def debuff. The same character struggles against Nemesis stacking veng. And some kind of patch the IDF puts down has taken that build from full to zero in seconds on more than one occasion.

 

Of course, Inspirations change everything

 

As for "tanking" outside of an actual tank/brute most (scrappers included) don't have the aggro control tools. Many builds can take point and eat the alpha, but for actually keeping the team safe as well? Other routes to the same destination include things like x/psi doms (strong aoe control+ability to sustain themselves) or powerboosting /ff controllers, making traditional aggro management unneeded for most 4x8 spawns.

 

 

[foosbabaganoosh]

10 hours ago, Frosticus said:

damage agnostic.

 

This is a great way to put it, a build that essentially doesn't have a fear of dying under reasonable circumstances. Sure maybe has holes for certain enemy groups, but as a whole can jump in the middle of (most) mobs and get things started without worrying of hitting the floor very quickly. Maybe they can't fully protect squishy teammates by keeping aggro, but knows at least *they* won't be the one dying first.

[Seed22]

My Kat/Stone/Soul can do it.  I don't remember all of my scrapper 50s being honest so I can't really speak to the rest of them, but I probably have a few that can if I tried. But for sure the Kat/Stone can. +4/x8 is just like HM-stat boost the video game. It's not super snorefest trivial, but it's not THAT difficult, being honest.

 

Can't tank for crap though, for a team. Mudpots is not that great of an aggro magnet.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Seed22

[Blackjoy]

 I will confess that my DM/SR cannot effectively solo the 801.x  content.  I tried one of those mission, cleared the first spawn without a death, and then proceeded to die like 5 times trying to clear the next two spawn.  At that point I decided it wasn't worth my time and winning through attrition didn't really prove anything in my mind.

[Uun]

1 hour ago, Blackjoy said:

I will confess that my DM/SR cannot effectively solo the 801.x  content.  

 

AE 801.x is MUCH harder than standard +4/x8 content.

[SomeGuy]

On 6/23/2023 at 10:23 AM, Seed22 said:

My Kat/Stone/Soul can do it.  I don't remember all of my scrapper 50s being honest so I can't really speak to the rest of them, but I probably have a few that can if I tried. But for sure the Kat/Stone can. +4/x8 is just like HM-stat boost the video game. It's not super snorefest trivial, but it's not THAT difficult, being honest.

 

Can't tank for crap though, for a team. Mudpots is not that great of an aggro magnet.

 

 

This isn't surprising, since if someone/thing is running away it isn't HITTING you (you also can't hit it). x/stn doesn't have a taunt aura, so it's aggro management is caca, but it's a darn good set for staying alive.

[Anthraxus]

Ok, so I just got on and ran my maxed 50 Axe/Stone scrapper through a chain of the various "standard" enemy group radio missions in PI.

 

This combination, when purpled- and AIO'ed-out, absolutely SAILS through all these +4/x8 missions. The layered DEF/RES armor, slow field (with damage), high regen and +hitpoints, and massive knockdown and +recharge (often boosted up to +250% recharge) from the many aoe attacks, keeps nearby enemies on their asses or straight-up dead.

 

Now, this toon can't tank, as he has no real aggro control; but other than that, he is an absolute monster.

[Without_Pause]

I still partly think it depends on the situation. I did a solo at +3/x8 for a LR mission redside with my Ice/stone Brute, and I blame death(s) on not knowing the mission. I think +4/x8 is more than within the range of being done, and that's without the character being done. There are some configurations of Longbow and Arachnos missions which just simply rip that build to shreds. There are other redside missions which are simple build checks. More so if you have the flag for soloing AVs on. I think my default for that build is +3/x8 since about the only real thing doing +4 is there for is more currency, which I'm not lacking anyway, and my own ego. I prefer just getting through missions cleaner.

[Blackjoy]

I ran my DM/SR redside and didn't have much trouble soloing 4x8.  I did run into a Longbow mission which had four +4 boss in an -/SR-killing config.  It was an Emp defender with a SS/Invul tank and I think maybe a Trick Arrow or Rad def and two other bosses   The +4 Emp Defender boss was putting Fortitude on the Tank and it was having no trouble hitting me through the softcap.   And the Defender had no trouble healing the tank.  I actually had to call in another lvl 50 to come hep me double team them.  I suppose I could have loaded up on Insp, but I thought it might be interesting to see if someone else could solo that boss group.

 

Admittedly, I cannot solo +4 AVs...at all.  I just don't put out enough single target damage and /SR sucks against AVs because a +4 AV is going to be capped at like 10% to hit chance.  I might get one down to half-health cyclying Barrier, but it takes so long to get through the AV's hit points it is eventually going to two-shot me due the RNG long before I can kill it.  Maybe an En Melee./SR might be able to kill it faster. 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Blackjoy

[Yomo Kimyata]

As mentioned, your opponents matter a lot.  Any of the standard radio opponents at 50 are relatively harmless so long as you target the right enemies first; your biggest hurdle is probably overcoming lots and lots of -to hit.  But when you get big groups of enemies that (sometimes accidentally!) synergize it's much more about your technique than your build, in my opinion.

[nihilii]

IMHO, all scrapper builds can solo +4/x8, as defined by >90% of standard enemy factions, no AVs, no temp powers, and the use of inspirations as they drop.

If you remove inspirations, I think all scrapper builds can still solo +4/x8, provided we define "solo" as "completing the task at hand", allowing recovery time between groups and the occasional pulling of tough targets from particular factions that are the achilles' heel to your particular build.

Obviously some builds will have an easier time at it than others. I'd rank WM/SD as higher than average, good value proposition there. I think the easiest route to get to comfy +4/x8 soloing here would be:

- make sure your build maximises the resistances and +maxHP Shield offers too. Layered defenses are key

- grab the Cardiac Alpha to keep your endurance consumption in check

- get Shadow Meld from the Soul epic. This might seem like overkill, but many factions these days bypass the mere softcap. Shadow Meld gives you a buffer to eat alphas from +tohit foes

- add the Rebirth Destiny, +regen tree, to patch up your lack of healing

- take the Melee Hybrid, +res tree. Gives you more regen and bumps up your resistances further. Every point of resistance is more valuable than the one before up until the cap
- in battle, make aggressive use of Crowd Control to milk the 100% knockdown

This is the baseline approach I'd take for a WM/SD soloing +4/x8 without inspirations. These aren't hard requirements, you could tweak things if you see this is actually *too much* survivability. The use of inspirations would significantly expand your options.