How do you circle that square?

[Glacier Peak]

I've been thinking - I play one other game from 20 years ago frequently. Old PS1 game called Legend of Dragoon. It's an easy classic JRPG that helped popularize the genre in the early 2000s. In my eyes, it's got everything I could want in a video game. At the same time, it's getting some fan made support in the graphic fidelity department and I think that is both neat and amazing to see people putting their time and heart in to a project of their passion. 

 

Okay, comparison now noted - what about CoH right? So that is where my thoughts have led me. I have the benefit of historical context - Issue 0 player here. It looked and played, and really FELT a whole lot different than yesterday when I logged in. There have been many changes made that I agree with and support from the HC Team. Only a handful I don't support, but can understand the rationale. 

 

One of the biggest examples of the changes between 2004 and 2023 are how I experience the city. How I can move about the world and interact with that world. Long Range Teleport has been an amazing option if I'm on the 100th iteration of Citadel or trying to grab badges. It's also nice to just turn off all the fancy whistles and walk (👴which is still faster than legacy days before Fitness was inherent). Crank up the music in the background to higher than 3% (if you are feeling squirrelly and don't mind ear bleed 😀) and experience the world. My thoughts then brought me to the question of this thread which I'm sure has already been asked:

 

How would you balance game development for a player base who has both experienced the game one way since legacy launch and with the new players who through all odds find themselves trying out this super hero MMO?

[Snarky]

How would you balance game development for a player base who has both experienced the game one way since legacy launch and with the new players who through all odds find themselves trying out this super hero MMO?

 

.... it is balanced....  unless the poor SoB starts a toon Goldside.  

[Clave Dark 5]

Not to sound Snarky ha ha, but I think he's about right.  A new player go walk around and check things out, or they can zap about like headless chickens with 3 kins on their team.  I guess maybe I'd try and find a way to encourage them to not fall into the "farm to 50 and then slot after two hours" path, so that they get the chance to realize there's more to the game than just that.  I wouldn't like penalize them "your first toon must level normally" or anything, but... it's something to think about.

[Glacier Peak]

16 minutes ago, Snarky said:

... it is balanced....  unless the poor SoB starts a toon Goldside.  

I think Goldside offers players a different experience. Visually, it's really beautiful. Enemy types are unique and the story is expansive, really requiring multiple play throughs to get the whole picture. 

 

And it was made for a different player base and subscription model too. 

[Glacier Peak]

6 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Not to sound Snarky ha ha, but I think he's about right.  A new player go walk around and check things out, or they can zap about like headless chickens with 3 kins on their team.  I guess maybe I'd try and find a way to encourage them to not fall into the "farm to 50 and then slot after two hours" path, so that they get the chance to realize there's more to the game than just that.  I wouldn't like penalize them "your first toon must level normally" or anything, but... it's something to think about.

I feel this is well intentioned. I remember the absolute grind to Level 50 in the first few issues on legacy, but it was a symbiotic relationship. The game needed a faster path to end game and it needed a player base who was willing to skip all the content to get there - in some cases it was to motivate other players to do the same so they could play with friends. Other times I saw what you and Snarky described. 

[Clave Dark 5]

Eh, I still don't play that way, too boring, and I do just fine.  But I know I'm in the minority on this issue, the AE in Pocket D always has a number of folk there.

[Snarky]

6 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Eh, I still don't play that way, too boring, and I do just fine.  But I know I'm in the minority on this issue, the AE in Pocket D always has a number of folk there.

in the months of March - June I did nonstop levelling of new 50s.  Nearly all with the same method. PL to 20-30, then run DFB (badges) and all the TF/SF/Trials Red/Blue in level order (top level of the TF/SF/Trial as reference)  to me this was very fast, and I could get a new 50 after about two days.   

 

This method would be a disservice to anyone learning the game.  (it would be nearly as fast without the PL bump to 20, but for slotting convenience I always tend to do it that way) To test a new AT and power sets it is great for an experienced player.  But a new player might quickly get lost in TF mechanics and over whelmed by choices in combat and character development. They will level fast and might be great 80-90% time and then the "city hall fight" in Posi 1 hits and they are screwed.  Or the "get through the dam" in Posi 2.  And on, and on.

 

We cannot (and should not) dictate how players learn the game.  There are plenty of players in game and on the boards who will answer all the questions people have.  No one can make a person reach out, and it is hard to even teach people they might want to ask if that is not their comfort zone.  

 

CoH, like life, can be a very organic learning process.  That might be a rave review or a giant critique.

 

 

[Glacier Peak]

4 minutes ago, Snarky said:

We cannot (and should not) dictate how players learn the game.  There are plenty of players in game and on the boards who will answer all the questions people have.  No one can make a person reach out, and it is hard to even teach people they might want to ask if that is not their comfort zone.  

 

CoH, like life, can be a very organic learning process.  That might be a rave review or a giant critique.

So very well said! I agree as a fellow player with everything you said. As a game developer though, I don't think you can be agnostic to the premise of my original question. The HC Team has at times provided insight in to their game design philosophy and reasons for changes. It's not entirely answering my question, but I'm not entitled to an answer from them. 

[Spaghetti Betty]

The easy answer to your question is to gate fast travel, but that cat is out of the bag at this point. Back in the day, we were forced to experience more since we were walking (or hovering) until level 14, and even after level 14 our travel power was essentially the only means of getting around that we had until SG teleporters, Prestige TP, P2W options, and now the LRT. For now we can only coax new players into not jumping on the 50 train and smell the roses.

[Snarky]

36 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

The easy answer to your question is to gate fast travel, but that cat is out of the bag at this point. Back in the day, we were forced to experience more since we were walking (or hovering) until level 14, and even after level 14 our travel power was essentially the only means of getting around that we had until SG teleporters, Prestige TP, P2W options, and now the LRT. For now we can only coax new players into not jumping on the 50 train and smell the roses.

Cut off their legs! 

[Bionic_Flea]

8 hours ago, Snarky said:

We cannot (and should not) dictate how players learn the game. 

 

I generally agree with this with one exception.  I think brand new accounts should get one character to 50 before "unlocking" AE.  You would still have access to 2XP and everything else in the game and once you get that first 50 on the account you can sit in AE from level 1 to vet level 1 million, if you wish.

9 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

How would you balance game development for a player base who has both experienced the game one way since legacy launch and with the new players who through all odds find themselves trying out this super hero MMO?

This is tricky.  Speaking just for myself, I do want the game to grow and expand but I don't want radical changes to stuff that has been a certain way for years and years.  I want new powersets, new arcs, new factions to fight, and new places to fight in.  While I understand the occasional need and persistent desire of some to change existing powersets and NPCs, I'd prefer that to remain to a minimum.  There is literally years worth of content for a brand new player if they are interested in looking for it just a little bit.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Bionic_Flea

[Luminara]

You circle the square by square dancing in a circle.

 

[Captain Fabulous]

17 minutes ago, Luminara said:

You circle the square by square dancing in a circle.

 

As someone who got dragged into square dancing by an ex I can say this is completely legit. Tho I found gay male square dancing to be far more enjoyable than geriatric square dancing.

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I think brand new accounts should get one character to 50 before "unlocking" AE.  You would still have access to 2XP and everything else in the game and once you get that first 50 on the account you can sit in AE from level 1 to vet level 1 million, if you wish.

Thanks for taking the time to write a response Flea. I can't say I agree with this portion of your post, but the rest I agree with. 

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

You circle the square by square dancing in a circle.

 

[InvaderStych]

4 hours ago, Luminara said:

You circle the square by square dancing in a circle.

 

What if the circle is within the square?

 

 

[Snarky]

[Glacier Peak]

5 minutes ago, Snarky said:

[Captain Fabulous]

32 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

 

[Ruin Mage]

19 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

How would you balance game development for a player base who has both experienced the game one way since legacy launch and with the new players who through all odds find themselves trying out this super hero MMO?

Honestly, I would tell the Legacy Players that the game needs to change and be lite-transparent (open about that things will change, but not doing an open book about what changes are coming - so that no one can run with things as if they're promised) about it. If they don't like it then so be it, but early 2000s game design no longer holds up. If a change can be made to - even lightly - make the game better? So be it. Even if legacy content needs to change or be outright re-done from the ground up. There are other servers if they don't like it.

Ideally, the game changes made under this wouldn't be too radical that it couldn't be recognized but sometimes it can't be helped. Balancing with the equation of nostalgia for legacy is just asking for trouble and headaches in my opinion.

But this is why I'm no developer. I don't particularly care for ancient legacy being put on a pedestal as 'must not touch'. I think all content, legacy or not, is not immune to being modified or changed or even re-evaluated in grander ways.

[Glacier Peak]

2 hours ago, Ruin Mage said:

Honestly, I would tell the Legacy Players that the game needs to change and be lite-transparent (open about that things will change, but not doing an open book about what changes are coming - so that no one can run with things as if they're promised) about it. If they don't like it then so be it, but early 2000s game design no longer holds up. If a change can be made to - even lightly - make the game better? So be it. Even if legacy content needs to change or be outright re-done from the ground up. There are other servers if they don't like it.

Ideally, the game changes made under this wouldn't be too radical that it couldn't be recognized but sometimes it can't be helped. Balancing with the equation of nostalgia for legacy is just asking for trouble and headaches in my opinion.

But this is why I'm no developer. I don't particularly care for ancient legacy being put on a pedestal as 'must not touch'. I think all content, legacy or not, is not immune to being modified or changed or even re-evaluated in grander ways.

I'm seeing a "my way or the highway" approach in your response, is that accurate? If not, disregard this follow up - if a made up statistic, say 95% of your player base is returning from playing during legacy, you think it's healthy for the developers of the game to ignore that majority of players suggestions and feedback? Is that fair to presume?

[Without_Pause]

I'm not saying get rid of 2x XP boosters. What I am saying that those might be my most love/hate thing which has gotten added, and it is far more on the hate side. 

[Herotu]

 

 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

perhaps I'm old and foolish and don't fully quite comprehend the question, but isn't that what the tutorial is for?

[Seed22]

3 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

I'm seeing a "my way or the highway" approach in your response, is that accurate? If not, disregard this follow up - if a made up statistic, say 95% of your player base is returning from playing during legacy, you think it's healthy for the developers of the game to ignore that majority of players suggestions and feedback? Is that fair to presume?

I don't like assuming one's intent, I just know that this mindset is common lately. I personally don't see the need for things to change drastically. But I think it may be due to people thinking changes will make this game more attractive to newer players(not gonna happen. at least in large quantities. It's gameplay loop is fundamentally basic, and the modern gaming audience demands a LOT more than CoH can deliver.) I don't like being a bearer of bad news, but the best and only changes that will have long-term impacts are QoL and new powersets at this point. The game's core loop is established and won't be redone, so no point in trying(if of course that's the goal with any of these changes).

 

 

As far as change goes for me with CoH; treat it like an old car. Don't try to pimp it out with crazy new accessories and hydraulics, work to make it the best and smoothest running car on the road(QoL/powerset additions vs gaming modes trying to capture a modern audience that won't really pan out.) Could be the biggest difference between wasted resources and actual long term growth.

 

 

I'm no dev, but I am a longterm CoH vet whose watched changes over the game's lifecycle since i6. The best ones I've seen have always been QoL updates and powersets; CoH's strong suit

Edited August 14, 2023 by Seed22