ENERGY MELEE

[Frosticus]

If this is what 6th place feels like...

Energy TRANSFER!

 

Then I'm ok with that

 

 

[SomeGuy]

7 hours ago, tidge said:

"corpse punching"

 

 

As fun as it is to do this sometimes, it's why I am a Claws > other sets kind of guy. I call it "corpse blasting". Same thing.

Edited October 2, 2023 by SomeGuy

[ScarySai]

On 9/3/2023 at 11:34 AM, Lazarus said:

So i was thinking of starting a new toon with EM, but with the total focus and energy transfer being only partial crit, is this set less on scrapper then a brute.

 

what are the pros and cons,.of scrapper  vs brute vs tank?

 

rhoughts

 

25% of an ET hit, particularly when stacked on reds, is still going to do more than most attacks crit for.

 

Brutes and Tanks get an inherently worse version of energy. Total focus crits give stalkers and scrappers two charges for ET/power crash, which opens up a lot of crazy rotational potential, particularly if you get chain hits. Potential tanks and brutes can never tap into.

 

 

Currently yelling at Ston to adjust the rotation, expect it to jump up a few places if he ever gets around to it. It's worth noting, Energy doesn't have access to a good FOTG or achilles mule by itself, which are notably large damage boosts.

 

Regardless, you can't go wrong with energy. Pairs very well with bio, fire and rad (My favorite) in particular. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by ScarySai

[SomeGuy]

On 10/2/2023 at 6:18 PM, ScarySai said:

 

EM/RAD

 

I'm not contributing. I just want to say I really love this combo. Done EM with Bio, SD, and EA too.  Slap a Achille's in Beta Decay and a FOTG in Rad Therapy? Life is good. I love the fact you can slot Rad Therapy to not just do -HP/s on a target, you can hit them with -RES too. And use it to slap a mob with some nasty AOE early on.  And since it's base recharge is so long, the procs all have a really high chance of almost always going off.

 

[ScarySai]

11 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

 

I'm not contributing. I just want to say I really love this combo. Done EM with Bio, SD, and EA too.  Slap a Achille's in Beta Decay and a FOTG in Rad Therapy? Life is good. I love the fact you can slot Rad Therapy to not just do -HP/s on a target, you can hit them with -RES too. And use it to slap a mob with some nasty AOE early on.  And since it's base recharge is so long, the procs all have a really high chance of almost always going off.

 

 

Plus, even without procs it's still top tier. 

 

And knowing that if the devs are dumb enough to actually nerf procs - that your character would still be good, makes it easy to invest in it.

Edited October 4, 2023 by ScarySai

[Seed22]

On 9/23/2023 at 8:21 PM, SomeGuy said:

And myself. Ston is one of the few people I will listen to when it comes to dealing DPS in this game.

The only one in this game I trust to listen to is Galaxy Brain, and no offense, neither you nor Ston are them. Outside of that I don't listen to y'all when it comes to best this or that because someone finds a new way to use this or that proc and suddenly the meta's changed. Case n point Rad/MA is now best farming tank when Rad/Fire brutes were top/best. I'd rather play it and build it myself and come to what's the best that way.

 

*The excel sheets may be great references, but they still can't account for player skill, which can take a lackluster set and turn it into at least A-tier.  I don't view the sheets as gospel, far from it actually. Probably would do the community some good if they did the same when it comes to picking a set.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Seed22

[Seed22]

On 10/2/2023 at 2:09 PM, Frosticus said:

If this is what 6th place feels like...

Energy TRANSFER!

 

Then I'm ok with that

 

 

Yeah im loving my EM/SR stalker for exactly this reason. It's not the 6th best, it's most certainly second best or best for ST melee easily. But, if Ston thinks it's 6th, that's fine too (for him).

[Frosticus]

[SomeGuy]

The best set is the one you enjoy playing the most. Numerically, DM is a horrible set. Is it fun as all get out to me? You betcha. I love me some DM.

[SomeGuy]

@ScarySai shared a hilarious idea of putting the Avalanche KD proc in Rad Therapy. Yes, it is indeed hilarious.

[Cyri]

On 9/3/2023 at 2:08 PM, nihilii said:

Pros on Scrappers:

- Scrappers are awesome and deal fantastic damage

- EM structure works well with Scrapper ATOs. You stick the crit ATO in Total Focus, this gives you near guaranteed chance to go off

- which, if you follow up with ET, means you turned ET into a heal instead of selfdamage

- TF will sometimes crit and give you 2 fast ET in a row

 

Pros on Brutes:

- idk. It's still EM so it's going to be good

 

Pros on Tankers:

- Whirling Hands with Tanker extra radius and target cap does solid AoE damage

- Tanker survivability helps you handle ET's -hp

 

ATO?  Does ATO = ArcheType Origin?  So, place which set into Total Focus, 1) Superior Critical Strikes or 2) Superior Scrapper's Strike?

 

Thank you in advance.  I seldom post, but I wanted to be sure because I enjoy energy melee and I built my scrapper.  It's strong, but this tweak will make her stronger, I just need to have it spelled out (please) because I want to get it right. 

 

 

Edited March 9 by Jynu

[nihilii]

19 hours ago, Jynu said:

 

ATO?  Does ATO = ArcheType Origin?  So, place which set into Total Focus, 1) Superior Critical Strikes or 2) Superior Scrapper's Strike?

 

Thank you in advance.  I seldom post, but I wanted to be sure because I LOVE energy melee and I built my scrapper.  It's strong, but this tweak will make her stronger, I just need to have it spelled out (please) because I want to get it right. 

 

Cheers!

You have it right, ATO is Archetype Origin.

Put the Superior Critical Strikes +50% chance to crit ATO in Total Focus, this is the one that gives you a big chance to crit for a few seconds.

 

If you slot no other recharge enhancement in Total Focus, this maximises the chance for the proc to go off.

 

The Superior Scrapper's Strike set is good in a damage aura if you have one, or failing that, another one of your attacks. The effect of the Superior Scrapper's Strike is passive.

[Cyri]

32 minutes ago, nihilii said:

You have it right, ATO is Archetype Origin.

Put the Superior Critical Strikes +50% chance to crit ATO in Total Focus, this is the one that gives you a big chance to crit for a few seconds.

 

If you slot no other recharge enhancement in Total Focus, this maximises the chance for the proc to go off.

 

The Superior Scrapper's Strike set is good in a damage aura if you have one, or failing that, another one of your attacks. The effect of the Superior Scrapper's Strike is passive.

Thank you.  I will do that.

[Sovera]

Steering the conversation back on topic I suggest Brute (or Tanker). One of my best experiences (not maximum uber hit-a-pylon experience) was a EM/Fire Brute simply because Burn finishes rounding up the mediocre AoE of EM (or allows to skip the cone) and even if it's not Bio it still adds practical extra burst with Fiery Embrace.

 

In practical terms I preferred having burst three times in a row (Build-Up for one group, Fiery Embrace for the second group, Build-up for the third group. Nothing for the fourth group. Repeat) than the steady damage of Bio (even though ultimately Bio is better at pylons).

 

In the same vein Ston has shown that in practical terms Rad Armor can and does replace Fire Armor in terms of AoE (the middling part of EM) by dint of spamming procced out Ground Zero and Radiation Therapy.

 

 

Ultimately this is my opinion:

 

- As a Scrapper and EM on top of it your ST is already top notch.

- Your AoE is mediocre, so fix that by picking Rad or Fire as secondary.

- If despite being a Scrapper AND using EM you STILL want MOAR single target damage then go Bio but Bio will not appreciatively increase the AoE (it's like increasing the horsepower of an engine but Whirling Hands and the cone are the release valves limiting the output).

[SomeGuy]

An EM/Fire Brute really can crank out really good ST and AOE DPS. Something to keep in mind though, EM/Rad WILL do better ST DPS and be hardier.

 

*I totally forgot I have a EM/FA Brute until I read @Sovera's post.

Edited October 31, 2023 by SomeGuy

[Troo]

On 9/23/2023 at 6:21 PM, SomeGuy said:

Ummm....ok. Not sure if you're laughing cause you think this is absurd.

 

 

The context is what I was mostly laughing at. Uncontrollably laughing.

Without_Pause & Nihilii providing strong, experienced endorsements for EM on Scrappers to the original poster, then the short quote and comment "Nope, there's 6 better at ST for Scrappers"  (which is a semi-crazy assertion outside of a very very narrow slice of the game on a uber min/max build in one very specific situation)

 

I won't argue that EM is the absolute best any more than I'd argue Regen is the best.

"The best" is very individual.

I will argue that EM is not 7th for single target damage across all levels, content and build budgets. (I'm fairly certain we agree on this)

Context:

Spoiler

 

On 9/3/2023 at 9:46 AM, Without_Pause said:

EM is likely the best ST damage for any of the melee ATs so to say it is 'lesser' on a Scrapper is incredibly wrong. You haven't overkilled a target until you start overkilling with an EM Scrapper. 😄Damage will go Scrapper > Brute > Tanker with the one notable item being Tankers get bigger AoEs. In short, EM defaults to S tier for any AT which uses it. 

On 9/3/2023 at 11:08 AM, nihilii said:

Pros on Scrappers:

- Scrappers are awesome and deal fantastic damage

- EM structure works well with Scrapper ATOs. You stick the crit ATO in Total Focus, this gives you near guaranteed chance to go off

- which, if you follow up with ET, means you turned ET into a heal instead of selfdamage

- TF will sometimes crit and give you 2 fast ET in a row

 

Pros on Brutes:

- idk. It's still EM so it's going to be good

 

Pros on Tankers:

- Whirling Hands with Tanker extra radius and target cap does solid AoE damage

- Tanker survivability helps you handle ET's -hp

On 9/21/2023 at 11:17 PM, DarknessEternal said:

Nope, there's 6 better at ST for scrappers.

 

 

 

@Ston will always get props from me for gathering data and doing testing. They are usually pretty clear that the numbers apply to specific testing and conditions.

In energy melee's case it likely could use a slightly improved rotation. The same could potentially be the case for other sets. But the results are what Ston got with the caveats provided.

 

Comparing sets that leverage multiple FF procs and ridiculous numbers of -res procs with sets that lack them was likely not to be taken as effectiveness across the game.

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Troo

[Without_Pause]

Having leveled up yet another Claws and a BA character for the first time into the 40s, I feel like damage resist and burst damage as factors really do matter. I'm not arguing anything for how high DPS Ice is, but I do know that's a set I can walk into basically any map and not worry about how much my damage is resisted and just how smooth that makes playing the set. Compare this to any lethal based set and how much those sets can turn into watching grass grown depending on the mob and the diff setting you are running on. I love Claws. It is the only melee set I have dinged more than once to 50, and I will soon have done it four times plus I have a Fort, but my word soloing certain mobs at even +3/x8 is an absolute chore. 

 

I did dust off my Em/ea Scrapper. Outside of TF's stupid long animation, it feels like this weird partial combo system. I definitely feel like I need to play it enough to get the flow down better. I yearn for a Sonic Melee set which should have quick attacks as there's no reason based on in game powers for that to not happen. It's almost like the OG devs felt like any non-S/L set had to have one inexcusably long animation. Granted, this pattern held up with Rad Melee as well. 

[SomeGuy]

8 hours ago, Troo said:

I won't argue that EM is the absolute best any more than I'd argue Regen is the best.

"The best" is very individual.

 

 

 

I really like you're outlook on this conversation. My austistic a** got hung up on data collection, so I sadly do know what is numerically the "best" at ST DPS in a vacuum, but I absolutely feel this way. Ice Melee, for example, is pretty middle of the pack in terms of ST DPS...but it is super safe to level very early on due to Ice Patch, and the soft-CC AOE it provides is really funny. It's just fun. Same for DM, which is at the end of the pack in terms of ST DPS but, hoo boy is it fun to play to me. TW is still really good ST DPS if done right, but I will definitely admit I haven't leveled TW since the changes.

 

EM levels pretty safely to me. It might not be able to handle extremely large packs like IM/Claws can (post shockwave for claws) but it can really do some nasty frontloaded damage early on. High HP targets become something I crave when on the set. LT and lower become trash even more to me.

 

The only two melee sets I don't have multiple drives to 50 experience with are Savage and Psi Melee. I never got in to Savage Melee and only done Psi Melee once.

[ninja surprise]

On 10/2/2023 at 6:18 PM, ScarySai said:

Brutes and Tanks get an inherently worse version of energy. Total focus crits give stalkers and scrappers two charges for ET/power crash, which opens up a lot of crazy rotational potential, particularly if you get chain hits. Potential tanks and brutes can never tap into.

 

What is this "two charges" thing?

[Without_Pause]

They might have meant two chances for a crit.

[nihilii]

If Total Focus crits on a scrapper or stalker, you get two charges of Energy Focus. So you can chain 2 fast ET before using TF again, or you can use fast ET and higher target Power Crash in a row.

[BrandX]

On 10/2/2023 at 6:18 PM, ScarySai said:

 

25% of an ET hit, particularly when stacked on reds, is still going to do more than most attacks crit for.

 

Brutes and Tanks get an inherently worse version of energy. Total focus crits give stalkers and scrappers two charges for ET/power crash, which opens up a lot of crazy rotational potential, particularly if you get chain hits. Potential tanks and brutes can never tap into.

 

 

Currently yelling at Ston to adjust the rotation, expect it to jump up a few places if he ever gets around to it. It's worth noting, Energy doesn't have access to a good FOTG or achilles mule by itself, which are notably large damage boosts.

 

Regardless, you can't go wrong with energy. Pairs very well with bio, fire and rad (My favorite) in particular. 

 

Oh yes!  Having enough recharge to make sure you can put TWO fast ET's into your chain, when you get that crit...so nice 🙂

[TheSpiritFox]

On 10/2/2023 at 3:52 AM, aethereal said:

Again, the pylon results are incredibly skewed not by procs in general, but by -res procs in particular.  Two of the top six contenders have fifteen instances of -res procs firing.  Against the "always on-level" pylons, this produces considerably outsized results compared to the "usually +3 or more" level of most other hard targets.

This in spades. 

 

Test single target DPS against a level 54 AV, defensive buffer/healer permitted (like a /ff or a /nature only using absorb shield, resist shield, and heals) for survivability. 

 

Show me those results. Because I've got a mastermind that can take a pylon down in 55 seconds. Real world performance of the same set against +4x8 is slower under ideal conditions which are almost impossible to maintain due to a lack of taunt or aoe immob on a thugs/traps. 

 

And also, like, I get that you get ideal dps out of adding other attacks, but I feel like that's a terrible way to actually measure the primary itself. I totally appreciate the work that went in to the testing here, but it doesnt reflect anything like 99% of players experiences. I think that primaries should be tested using ONLY attacks from the primary and nothing else, to measure the actual primary's full performance under ideal conditions rather than "Lets base our entire rotation around gloom and cross punch and see what the primary can add to that"

 

Same way, I feel like in set comparison DPS testing there should be no procs. The last time I saw one of these test threads it was showcasing builds done with generic IOs ONLY. 

That's an actual test of the primary. At the point you're min maxing procs and half your rotation doesnt come from your primary, you're not testing the primary, youre testing your individual build. So again while I appreciate the effort done, I think the methodology is so beyond flawed as to make the data absolutely useless to the vast majority of the player base. 

 

Remove procs entirely, build around pure enhancement and only using attacks from the actual primary, and test the set against a level 54 AV, and I bet you EM suddenly leaps forward to 10%  or better DPS above any other single target scrapper set in the game. If someone actually has the time and inclination to test this under my methodology and I'm wrong, I'll throw you a billion influence for your trouble. Not kidding. 

Edited February 20 by TheSpiritFox

[Sovera]

On 11/4/2023 at 5:33 AM, Troo said:

 

 

The context is what I was mostly laughing at. Uncontrollably laughing.

Without_Pause & Nihilii providing strong, experienced endorsements for EM on Scrappers to the original poster, then the short quote and comment "Nope, there's 6 better at ST for Scrappers"  (which is a semi-crazy assertion outside of a very very narrow slice of the game on a uber min/max build in one very specific situation)

 

I won't argue that EM is the absolute best any more than I'd argue Regen is the best.

"The best" is very individual.

I will argue that EM is not 7th for single target damage across all levels, content and build budgets. (I'm fairly certain we agree on this)

Context:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

@Ston will always get props from me for gathering data and doing testing. They are usually pretty clear that the numbers apply to specific testing and conditions.

In energy melee's case it likely could use a slightly improved rotation. The same could potentially be the case for other sets. But the results are what Ston got with the caveats provided.

 

Comparing sets that leverage multiple FF procs and ridiculous numbers of -res procs with sets that lack them was likely not to be taken as effectiveness across the game.

 

As long as people keep testing against +0 pylons then -res procs will keep winning by a landslide making some sets 'the best' because they can slot both. People who don't know or care will just parrot the results until it becomes a 'truth'.

 

Trapdoor type tests are still the best. We don't usually spend 2 minutes hitting a target, but we do usually mow through an ocean of relatively low HP mobs. At that point the small improvement the -res brings is washed out if the mobs die in three hits regardless and its the set itself being judged on its merits.