Addressing the lower-level IO problem

[Starhammer]

I think that the enhancement system of IOs and sets could benefit from a significant overhaul, but the kind of work necessary to make low-level non-procs/uniques relevant seems like it might be more effort than it's worth without overhauling the rest of it, which would be a major project for the developers.

Like others, aside from procs/uniques, I never bother with IOs before lev 22 (IO lev 25), and often don't bother with readily available SOs before 12 or 17, even with enough inf to make the expense irrelevant. Aside from the Damage/Recharge/Proc freebies we get from P2W (On a side note, getting another 5 comparable that are Acc/Endredux with a defensive or maintenance proc like rec/heal would be lovely). The foremost value 10/15/20 IOs seems to have is crafting them for the crafting badge 😞 As much as I'd like to see that subsystem of the game relevant at low levels, if I'm actively playing a character (not even farming or even using 2XP) they won't stay low level long enough to really justify that investment.

If anything would make the subsystem more interesting and useful for me, it would be the addition of some new 10-50 rare sets (or universal damage, like maybe a Halloween themed set to give out in the Halloween trial similar to SBB, which we could make available year round also... hint hint) with a wider variety of set bonuses. Or like PvP sets, other themed sets that have themed set bonuses... imagine a universal damage set that has secondary set bonuses similar to PvP but that are based on giving bonus effects to fire damage or guns powersets. Probably too much work to make something for everyone right off the bat, and if they tried it, it'd probably start with one or two sets and get forgotten on the back burner like Jet Pack back options, but it's an idea I think, if it could be followed through on would make for better variety and interest at (almost) all levels.

A note on boosters and catalysts. I find that the only worthwhile use of catalysts is for things like ATOs or to but on the proc in a set to remind me not to waste boosters on it. Any set worth having at endgame (or those spots where a level 50 basic IO is the only viable choice, like Leadership>Assault) is best used boosted to +5. If you catalyzed something earlier and you're now trying to optimize the build, you just have to sell the catalyzed and rebuy it along with boosters 😞  As much as I don't want boosters nerfed to improve the comparative value of Catalysts, I would like to see Cats have more value along the way. I know if I could add boosters to a Catalyzed enhancement, I would probably be more likely to invest in various orange sets in the 20-40s instead of just settling for 25+ basic IOs until I swap out for purples at 50 😕 There's no value in boosting something you're just going to outlevel. (Yes, I know you don't "outlevel" sub-50 IO sets in the manner that they stop working like SOs, but you do in that they stop being the most effective they can be after you move into a new level range) For instance, the LoTG proc with the global recharge buff is also a +defense enhancement. These things are expensive enough it's kind of a shame to buy 2 and cat one for early use and boost the other at 50.

[Rudra]

51 minutes ago, Starhammer said:

I think that the enhancement system of IOs and sets could benefit from a significant overhaul, but the kind of work necessary to make low-level non-procs/uniques relevant seems like it might be more effort than it's worth without overhauling the rest of it, which would be a major project for the developers.

Like others, aside from procs/uniques, I never bother with IOs before lev 22 (IO lev 25), and often don't bother with readily available SOs before 12 or 17, even with enough inf to make the expense irrelevant. Aside from the Damage/Recharge/Proc freebies we get from P2W (On a side note, getting another 5 comparable that are Acc/Endredux with a defensive or maintenance proc like rec/heal would be lovely). The foremost value 10/15/20 IOs seems to have is crafting them for the crafting badge 😞 As much as I'd like to see that subsystem of the game relevant at low levels, if I'm actively playing a character (not even farming or even using 2XP) they won't stay low level long enough to really justify that investment.

If anything would make the subsystem more interesting and useful for me, it would be the addition of some new 10-50 rare sets (or universal damage, like maybe a Halloween themed set to give out in the Halloween trial similar to SBB, which we could make available year round also... hint hint) with a wider variety of set bonuses. Or like PvP sets, other themed sets that have themed set bonuses... imagine a universal damage set that has secondary set bonuses similar to PvP but that are based on giving bonus effects to fire damage or guns powersets. Probably too much work to make something for everyone right off the bat, and if they tried it, it'd probably start with one or two sets and get forgotten on the back burner like Jet Pack back options, but it's an idea I think, if it could be followed through on would make for better variety and interest at (almost) all levels.

A note on boosters and catalysts. I find that the only worthwhile use of catalysts is for things like ATOs or to but on the proc in a set to remind me not to waste boosters on it. Any set worth having at endgame (or those spots where a level 50 basic IO is the only viable choice, like Leadership>Assault) is best used boosted to +5. If you catalyzed something earlier and you're now trying to optimize the build, you just have to sell the catalyzed and rebuy it along with boosters 😞  As much as I don't want boosters nerfed to improve the comparative value of Catalysts, I would like to see Cats have more value along the way. I know if I could add boosters to a Catalyzed enhancement, I would probably be more likely to invest in various orange sets in the 20-40s instead of just settling for 25+ basic IOs until I swap out for purples at 50 😕 There's no value in boosting something you're just going to outlevel. (Yes, I know you don't "outlevel" sub-50 IO sets in the manner that they stop working like SOs, but you do in that they stop being the most effective they can be after you move into a new level range) For instance, the LoTG proc with the global recharge buff is also a +defense enhancement. These things are expensive enough it's kind of a shame to buy 2 and cat one for early use and boost the other at 50.

The PvP sets aren't themes. PvP and PvE use different rule sets. So the PvP IOs grant PvP bonuses. They also grant PvE bonuses because it is assumed that PvP players won't be PvP'ing 100% of the time, and losing their bonuses when they go PvE would really suck. (And now we have Temporal Warriors that are stuck doing only PvP 100% of the time....)

 

A new set for like Halloween could be interesting, but that boosts guns power sets, or fire damage, and so on? Unless the devs released a set that was like that for absolutely every theme at the same time, no. How would they even be classified? PvP sets are PvP sets. (Edit: And are still divided into the base categories every other set is.) Winter sets are broken up into Melee, PBAoE, Ranged, and Ranged AoE. Not cold damage. Even ATOs aren't just guns, or fire, or cold, or whatever. Any offensive power that AT has can slot the ATOs. A fire damage set though? Would it be ranged, ranged AoE, melee, melee AoE, or would a whole new category need to be created? Or would it need to be created as say ranged, and then be duplicated for ranged AoE, melee, and melee AoE for fairness? If people want new sets, I'm for it as long as they aren't asking for god tier enhancement bonuses and/or set bonuses. Themed sets though? Let's not.

 

(Edit: I haven't forgotten that Overwhelming Force is a universal damage set. It is a universal damage set. It boosts every possible power it can be slotted into equally, with no specialized benefits like PvP sets. Anyone can choose to go do PvP whenever they want, even if they choose to never do so. An Ice/Electric/Dark character can't choose to go Fire whenever they want.)

Edited September 5, 2023 by Rudra

[A.I.D.A.]

I have two three-piece low-level single-target melee sets in a six-slotted power, because it's an easy way to get a decent amount of Energy/Negative defense. Specifically, the Negative side of that, which Energy Aura needs to play some catch-up on. Even at 50, with these sets being a 25-cap and a 30-cap , the power's damage enhancement value hits red ED in Mid's.

 

 

Once you hit red ED, you're going to get very little benefit from any more enhancement value in that aspect of a power. Making these sets scale up to 50 would not meaningfully affect the power they're slotted in, so why waste development effort?

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by A.I.D.A.

[macskull]

5 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

They remain weak, period.

Remember, Catalysts don't boost the enhancement value at all.
Nor do they allow enhancement values to continue to grow beyond the set's level cap.
A level 30 Volley Fire gives you the same base enhancement values as a catalyzed Volley Fire on a Level 50.

Boosters will enhance the values, but, as always, the improvement is negligible and the expense is out of whack with the improvement.

All these are true, but boosters do not provide a negligible improvement. That level 30 Volley Fire, when boosted to +5, is actually more effective than a level 50 piece. I see people 4-slotting Basilisk's Gaze for the recharge bonus saying "man I wish this set wasn't capped at 30" but if you +5 those enhancements it's like the set does go all the way to 50.

[macskull]

4 hours ago, Starhammer said:

Any set worth having at endgame ... is best used boosted to +5.

I disagree. There are plenty of sets that are useful at endgame that run from levels 30-50 (or even 10-50) and catalyzing them allows you to slot them earlier while still getting full effectiveness at level 50 (and also keeping those set bonuses while exemplaring, which for some characters like Dominators is A Big Deal). Aside from very specific powers with very specific slotting, I find I almost never boost non-generic IOs unless I'm using a set IO piece to provide accuracy or damage in a proc'd out power. If I'm not stuffing a power full of procs odds are very good I'm already getting close to ED numbers without having to boost enhancements.

Edited September 5, 2023 by macskull

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, Starhammer said:

Any set worth having at endgame (or those spots where a level 50 basic IO is the only viable choice, like Leadership>Assault) is best used boosted to +5. If you catalyzed something earlier and you're now trying to optimize the build, you just have to sell the catalyzed and rebuy it along with boosters 😞 

The advantage of boosting your end game enhancements is you wring out what little efficiency is left in them. At the cost of losing those enhancements' benefits when you exemplar to more than 3 levels below them. The advantage of catalyzing enhancements is they remain viable, granting full set bonuses, for their full normal range of level availability so you can exemplar down and do non-50 arcs and TFs/SFs without losing effectiveness. So no, any set worth having at end game is not best boosted to +5 unless you never plan on doing any lower level content again. (Or unless you're willing to fork out the money to have a catalyzed build and a boosted build to swap between.)

[Hyperstrike]

6 hours ago, macskull said:

All these are true, but boosters do not provide a negligible improvement. That level 30 Volley Fire, when boosted to +5, is actually more effective than a level 50 piece. I see people 4-slotting Basilisk's Gaze for the recharge bonus saying "man I wish this set wasn't capped at 30" but if you +5 those enhancements it's like the set does go all the way to 50.

The set?  Of course.

On a per-piece basis?  Not so much.

[Captain Fabulous]

Between the P2W buffs and the DFB/DIB buffs I don't even bother slotting IOs till level 27 at the earliest.

[srmalloy]

On 9/3/2023 at 10:15 PM, macskull said:

While the original design intent for IOs was to keep strength parity with non-IO enhancements, that's no longer reflected in reality thanks to the enhancement rework in I27P1.

Rather than play with set bonuses and redesign of the IOs in sets, what is the net effect overall if we simply remove the 'knuckle' at level 25 and continue the same scaling of the post-25 IOs down to their minimum? They will continue to be inferior to SOs in enhancement value, and the set bonuses would remain as they are; however, they would be less lame being scaled against SOs rather than DOs.

[macskull]

5 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

The set?  Of course.

On a per-piece basis?  Not so much.

I'm a bit confused here by what you mean. A level 30+5 IO provides larger enhancement values than a level 50 IO.

 

2 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Rather than play with set bonuses and redesign of the IOs in sets, what is the net effect overall if we simply remove the 'knuckle' at level 25 and continue the same scaling of the post-25 IOs down to their minimum? They will continue to be inferior to SOs in enhancement value, and the set bonuses would remain as they are; however, they would be less lame being scaled against SOs rather than DOs.

Yes, that was what part one of my suggestion entailed. The second part had to do with set bonuses, but the majority of the issue as I see it is just that large dropoff below the 25-30 range. Set bonuses open a whole different can of worms, but I think adjustment of lower-level enhancement values could be done independently.

[srmalloy]

50 minutes ago, macskull said:

I'm a bit confused here by what you mean. A level 30+5 IO provides larger enhancement values than a level 50 IO.

And I'm confused by your statement; a level 30+5 IO is a level 35 IO; it should still be inferior to a level 50 IO. The only difference is that if you slot a set of 30s and boost them all to +5, their set bonuses stay live until you exemp below 27, whereas if you'd slotted a set of 35s, their set bonuses stop if you exemp below 32.

[macskull]

10 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

And I'm confused by your statement; a level 30+5 IO is a level 35 IO; it should still be inferior to a level 50 IO. The only difference is that if you slot a set of 30s and boost them all to +5, their set bonuses stay live until you exemp below 27, whereas if you'd slotted a set of 35s, their set bonuses stop if you exemp below 32.

That's not how boosters work. Each booster increases an enhancement's effectiveness by 5%, stacking to a maximum of 25%. Looking at, say, an acc/dam IO for our purposes:

• A level 30 acc/dam IO provides 21.8% enhancement to both acc and dam.
• A level 35 acc/dam IO provides 22.9% enhancement to the same.
• A level 50 acc/dam IO provides 26.5% enhancement to the same.

Seems pretty straightforward, right? But... 30+5 does not equal 35 because enhancement boosters always provide a fixed benefit of 5%. A single enhancement booster would make your level 30 into a 30+1 which would boost your acc and dam by (1.05 * 21.8% = 22.89%). So in this case, we see that 30 plus one equals not 31, but 35. If I use another four boosters to make that level 30 into a 30+5 my acc and dam is now boosted by (1.25 * 21.8% = 27.25%). As you can see, 27.25% is greater than 26.5%, so instead of 30+5 = 35, you get something more like 30+5 = somewhere between 54 and 55.

Edited September 5, 2023 by macskull

[Rudra]

This is what @macskull is talking about:

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Enhancement_Booster_Salvage

 

(Edit: Though it should be noted that ED still affects them.)

Edited September 5, 2023 by Rudra

[Starhammer]

On 9/4/2023 at 8:58 PM, Rudra said:

The PvP sets aren't themes. PvP and PvE use different rule sets. So the PvP IOs grant PvP bonuses. They also grant PvE bonuses because it is assumed that PvP players won't be PvP'ing 100% of the time, and losing their bonuses when they go PvE would really suck. (And now we have Temporal Warriors that are stuck doing only PvP 100% of the time....)

 

A new set for like Halloween could be interesting, but that boosts guns power sets, or fire damage, and so on? Unless the devs released a set that was like that for absolutely every theme at the same time, no. How would they even be classified? PvP sets are PvP sets. (Edit: And are still divided into the base categories every other set is.) Winter sets are broken up into Melee, PBAoE, Ranged, and Ranged AoE. Not cold damage. Even ATOs aren't just guns, or fire, or cold, or whatever. Any offensive power that AT has can slot the ATOs. A fire damage set though? Would it be ranged, ranged AoE, melee, melee AoE, or would a whole new category need to be created? Or would it need to be created as say ranged, and then be duplicated for ranged AoE, melee, and melee AoE for fairness? If people want new sets, I'm for it as long as they aren't asking for god tier enhancement bonuses and/or set bonuses. Themed sets though? Let's not.

 

(Edit: I haven't forgotten that Overwhelming Force is a universal damage set. It is a universal damage set. It boosts every possible power it can be slotted into equally, with no specialized benefits like PvP sets. Anyone can choose to go do PvP whenever they want, even if they choose to never do so. An Ice/Electric/Dark character can't choose to go Fire whenever they want.)

"Themes" may not have been the best term, but I couldn't think of a better one and you seem to have understood what I meant.

And as for the difficulty/unlikelihood of making one for all the different "themes" at once, I did specifically address that right in the same paragraph... As for how it would be implemented in the unlikely event that it was? Yeah, probably best to create new categories altogether for such things. A "Fire" set would thereby act as a Universal Damage set in regard to positional damage, but be limited to only powers that cause fire damage inherently (Not counting other powers or procs that add fire damage to a non-fire power).

[Starhammer]

On 9/5/2023 at 12:44 AM, macskull said:

I disagree. There are plenty of sets that are useful at endgame that run from levels 30-50 (or even 10-50) and catalyzing them allows you to slot them earlier while still getting full effectiveness at level 50 (and also keeping those set bonuses while exemplaring, which for some characters like Dominators is A Big Deal). Aside from very specific powers with very specific slotting, I find I almost never boost non-generic IOs unless I'm using a set IO piece to provide accuracy or damage in a proc'd out power. If I'm not stuffing a power full of procs odds are very good I'm already getting close to ED numbers without having to boost enhancements.

I can't really speak to Dominators, as they're not really my thing. I have some, even at 50, but they don't come naturally to me.

What I can say is that if I'm filling out a level 50 character with 50+5 enhancements, I'm usually not dependent on set bonuses to handle 46- content. I'll admit, I don't like losing my global Endredux from Unbreakable Guard on toggle heavy characters, but if I'm doing low-level content with these characters, it's for a badge or a sense of completionism, or experiencing a story line... in any of those cases, I probably also don't need to be playing at +4x8.

[BrandX]

I've had builds were I've used low level one's for their resist bonus.

[Arc-Mage]

1) wouldn’t changes like those suggested bring back lower level grind?

2) todays game is designed to allow the player to fly past the first 20 levels in a few hours. (Or less)

[macskull]

18 minutes ago, Arc-Mage said:

1) wouldn’t changes like those suggested bring back lower level grind?

2) todays game is designed to allow the player to fly past the first 20 levels in a few hours. (Or less)

The proposed changes don't add any lower-level grind. They present an alternate option to SOs at lower levels and make lower-level IOs more appealing. The only real way I could see there being "grind" here is having the inf to afford the lower level sets, but again... optional.

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

The proposed changes don't add any lower-level grind. They present an alternate option to SOs at lower levels and make lower-level IOs more appealing. The only real way I could see there being "grind" here is having the inf to afford the lower level sets, but again... optional.

If low level iO sets were buffed, it would make all my builds even more powerful at all levels, as I said I can +3 at lvl 9, why do I need more?

 

Right now I can and do slot sets starting at  level 10, and all buffing them does is make all my builds even more potent.

 

As I said, right now I slot ATO, Winter, low sets and SO. If you buff low sets I still slot ATO, Winter, low sets and SO, the only change is you just gave me a free buff.

 

No vote.

[nihilii]

Killer topic with data-driven analysis.

That being said, I hate the suggestion to tune down Boosters to compensate.

Essentially, we'd get lower level IOs matching higher levels IOs => more diversity, but a net power change close to +0
We'd lose some Booster efficiency to compensate => net power change, a decrease

 

It's a +x/-y deal where y > x. Do I have to say it? IT'S A COVERT "NERF BOOSTERS" THREAD, PEOPLE!!!11 😭 Do not fall for macskull's tricks, or this game well be gone to the americans.

[Zect]

I'm pleasantly surprised; this is actually a very reasonable suggestion. A lot of the sets you discuss are from the earliest implementation of the IO system (predating even the addition of purples), back when the developers may not have figured out what players are likely to pursue and were possibly somewhat conservative in chosing what set bonuses to offer (which is the smart thing to do; release underpowered, buff later).

 

Either increasing their level ceiling or revamping the set bonuses, or both, seem plausible solutions. Personally, I wouldn't prefer extending their levels all the way to 50; I think we have an excess of high-level enhancements (purples, pvpIOs and the various flavors of hami-Os) and it would be nice to see more mid-level sets that present a choice of attractive set bonuses at the cost of lower enhancement value. Trade-offs = good. Eradication, cloud senses and basilisks are all good examples of such a concept well done. So if their ceiling is to be heightened I would say that 30 seems a good place to stop in addition to buffing their set bonuses.

 

However, careful attention needs to be paid to enhancing build diversity and refreshing the stale meta. The set bonuses should not provide significant amounts of:

• Def
• Res
• Rech
• Acc

And other such bonuses that current mainstream builds pursue, or that support meta playstyles (such as KB2KD).

 

I think this is an exciting opportunity to implement something completely new instead. For example, uncommon set bonuses like +range and +mez duration, but in huge amounts that make them really significant to non-meta builds. Or a set "bonus" at 2x that is actually a malus such as -10% rech, but compensated by a different, extremely powerful (stronger even than purple) or unique bonus at 3x, forcing a trade-off. Again, trade-offs = good. We may even consider never-before-seen bonuses. Whatever those may be, I leave it to game designers to figure out.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Zect

[Sovera]

I would really like to slot my level 50 recipes at level 1. I won't have the slots, of course, but once slotted in its slotted in and I don't need to think about it.

 

The low level IOs are made for a game where we level extremely slowly and then there's a point in scrounging for every point. But in modern CoH between double XP and all the facilities we do not spend long enough in the low levels to warrant the trouble of slotting them.

 

 

If I'm leveling the normal way with access to my piggy bank and my enhancement tables then I level with empty slots barring the F2P freebies until level 10, then slot event IOs and ATOs. I will usually slot nothing else until 22 which is usually about the time I finish soloing Posi 1 and 2. I will buy some generic IOs to fill my empty slots and then I loiter until 27y-ish which is when I can slot the last of my high level IOs until I reach 50 and respec to put in purples and scrounge a few slots from Hasten/BU.

 

If I'm doing my by-now-usual way way of leveling without piggy bank or my enhancement tables then little changes. I will have no money for ATOs or event IOs so I level with only the P2W freebies until 22 and by then I have enough merits from soloing both Posis to fill all my slots with level 25 IOs. After that as I slowly make money I replace them with ATOs and set IOs that I will be using in my final build and keep slotting generics in my new slots.

 

At no point does it come across I should go looking for a Pounding Slugfest instead of just throwing a generic IO into a slot.

 

By all means don't remove the low level IOs, but they are a waste of time IMO. I would rather see all recipes craftable at level 1 (even if their bonuses at not accessible until later) instead of leveling with empty slots or craft nonsensical lowbie IOs. I can't be the only one that only throws generics in until the we reach the timegated levels.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Sovera

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

I can't be the only one that only throws generics in until the we reach the timegated levels.

If my build calls for higher level than me set IOs? I often just leave those slots empty until I reach the minimum level to start slotting them. The exception being if my build calls for level 50 required IOs like Hecatombs. Those I will slot with a generic IO to keep the power competitive against high level mobs.

 

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

The low level IOs are made for a game where we level extremely slowly and then there's a point in scrounging for every point. But in modern CoH between double XP and all the facilities we do not spend long enough in the low levels to warrant the trouble of slotting them.

You're most definitely right about the leveling progression though. Between the constant patrol xp and the heavy xp boost the game got when it went private pirate server so that those that knew about and were granted access to the game could very quickly recreate their lost level 50 incarnate characters, there isn't much call for the low level sets unless a player is looking for the set bonuses. And that is even before you get into the XP Boosters available from P2W. The current iteration of the game is set up to get you past all the content and to level 50 as quickly as they can without just cutting out the content. Which is why blue side and red side characters that want to do content at level have to watch their progression and mind the Turn Off XP option, let alone the poor gold siders that had that problem even before the game had its leveling shifted to high gear.

[SwitchFade]

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

If my build calls for higher level than me set IOs? I often just leave those slots empty until I reach the minimum level to start slotting them. The exception being if my build calls for level 50 required IOs like Hecatombs. Those I will slot with a generic IO to keep the power competitive against high level mobs.

 

You're most definitely right about the leveling progression though. Between the constant patrol xp and the heavy xp boost the game got when it went private pirate server so that those that knew about and were granted access to the game could very quickly recreate their lost level 50 incarnate characters, there isn't much call for the low level sets unless a player is looking for the set bonuses. And that is even before you get into the XP Boosters available from P2W. The current iteration of the game is set up to get you past all the content and to level 50 as quickly as they can without just cutting out the content. Which is why blue side and red side characters that want to do content at level have to watch their progression and mind the Turn Off XP option, let alone the poor gold siders that had that problem even before the game had its leveling shifted to high gear.

So, um, Rurda...

 

 

 

 

How do you feel about... Patrol XP

 

ahahah. 👍

[macskull]

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

Between the constant patrol xp and the heavy xp boost the game got when it went private pirate server

So patrol XP, at least, functions the same way it did back on live. I'm also not aware of any "XP boost" that's been added post-shutdown either, unless you include the XP boosters but those are optional.