Confront pull

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I'm really just looking for SOME way to make Confront a desirable choice.

I ABSOLUTELY disagree with the suggestion that it's good some powers are worthless for the sake of people making builds where they don't have to make any sacrifices. EVERY power should be desirable.

I actually agree that every power in a power set should be a desirable pick. However, I find that Confront already is a desirable pick depending on my character and build. I'm actually fine with Confront being made a little stronger, as long as it isn't changed, and most definitely not replaced, but the repel may be a bit much or otherwise unworkable.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

@Luminara

 

What if, instead of any of this reverse repel stuff, using Confront gave the Scrapper (or Widow) a minor or moderate Movement Speed buff for a few seconds?

What if it instead gave the target a minor movement buff to close with the Scrapper/Tanker/Brute?

[Wavicle]

16 minutes ago, Rudra said:

What if it instead gave the target a minor movement buff to close with the Scrapper/Tanker/Brute?

Works for me.

[Luminara]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess the reason for the variable duration is because it isn't a constant effect like Singularity?

 

Repel doesn't have a distance setting, it can't push or pull X feet, it only has a duration.  If that duration were a set amount, it would either drop the target short of the user, or continue to pull the target after it reached the user.  Thus, the duration would have to vary with distance in order to make it bring the target into melee range regardless of where the target was previously, but also stop pulling when melee range was reached.

[Wavicle]

21 minutes ago, Rudra said:

What if it instead gave the target a minor movement buff to close with the Scrapper/Tanker/Brute?

 

I would personally prefer such a thing be added ONLY to Scrapper and Widow Confront powers and NOT to Tank/Brute Taunts, simply to distinguish them. The AoE Taunts are already very powerful. I WOULD like an improvement to Kheldian Dwarf AoE Taunts, but that's another thread.

[Luminara]

15 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

@Luminara

 

What if, instead of any of this reverse repel stuff, using Confront gave the Scrapper (or Widow) a minor or moderate Movement Speed buff for a few seconds?

 

You'd still spend more time using Confront (1.848s) than you would moving to your target (1.23s).  Even if the buff capped your movement speed, you couldn't make it to the target in 0.618s, not even with Confront's -Range forcing the target to move toward you.  Why waste time and effort adding a movement speed buff that has no impact?

 

[Wavicle]

The recent changes to Placate helped that power a lot. It's NOT now a "Required" pick, but it's also not completely worthless as it once was.

I'm open to all sorts of different approaches, but ultimately that's what I'd like to see for Confront. Something to make it fun and worthwhile, but not so good that everyone must take it.

But NOT making it AoE.

[Rudra]

15 minutes ago, Luminara said:

46 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess the reason for the variable duration is because it isn't a constant effect like Singularity?

 

Repel doesn't have a distance setting, it can't push or pull X feet, it only has a duration.  If that duration were a set amount, it would either drop the target short of the user, or continue to pull the target after it reached the user.  Thus, the duration would have to vary with distance in order to make it bring the target into melee range regardless of where the target was previously, but also stop pulling when melee range was reached.

I get that, except that Singularity uses an inverse repel to draw targets to it, with the result being the target reaches the Singularity, moves past it, is drawn towards it for not being at it, and the target keeps shifting around the Singularity because of the constant attraction. The constant duration as long as the Singularity is not defeated or times out keeps targets moving to it even if they get drawn past it. Hence, my expectation that the variable duration would be necessitated by Confront not being a sustained power.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

The recent changes to Placate helped that power a lot. It's NOT now a "Required" pick, but it's also not completely worthless as it once was.

*grumble* *grumble* *bites tongue about people thinking Placate is or was ever worthless before says something that gets self booted from forums*

[Wavicle]

Just now, Rudra said:

*grumble* *grumble* *bites tongue about people thinking Placate is or was ever worthless before says something that gets self booted from forums*

 

I am happy to admit that "worthless" is hyperbole. But I think that "insufficient even for its intended purpose" is spot on.

[kelika2]

Well if you dont believe in designated required skippable powers for build breathing room.. why not also allow taunts to buff the user with resist, defense, damage or spd/rech depending on the set and rename it "hype up".  user becomes an annoyance and angers the target and that gets your blood going.  remember scrappers are like Scrappy Doo, TF2 Scout, Spiderman, etc.

[Wavicle]

No, that would be way too much. I’m not trying to buff Scrappers a lot. Just make Confront a LITTLE more attractive.

[A Cat]

Might be dumb, but short of making it aoe, which would step on the toes of brutes and tanks excessively, how about other effects depending on the power set? Like, debuff recovery on elec melee, debuff defense on katana/broadsword, recharge on psi, etc. You would only use this on big bosses (dunno for sure, but I think is the main use case currently). The idea is whatever debuff your set does, it does a slightly better version of that. Then adjust the recharge and end costs to reflect the functionally, but have the base taunt duration long enough so you can perma that aspect on one target with engagement easily. You'd have to make something up for certain sets like EM, where your debuff is a control. But this would also make things less generic, which I always like when it comes to sets. 

[Wavicle]

Just now, A Cat said:

Might be dumb, but short of making it aoe, which would step on the toes of brutes and tanks excessively, how about other effects depending on the power set? Like, debuff recovery on elec melee, debuff defense on katana/broadsword, recharge on psi, etc. You would only use this on big bosses (dunno for sure, but I think is the main use case currently). The idea is whatever debuff your set does, it does a slightly better version of that. Then adjust the recharge and end costs to reflect the functionally, but have the base taunt duration long enough so you can perma that aspect on one target with engagement easily. You'd have to make something up for certain sets like EM, where your debuff is a control. But this would also make things less generic, which I always like when it comes to sets. 

 

I'm not sure exactly how powerful such a thing could be and remain balanced, but I like the concept.

[biostem]

What if confront was either a zero-cost or extremely low cost toggle, that constantly pushed the caster to the top of the enemy's aggro list and maintained the range debuff...

[Darkneblade]

What if Confront amp up damage of your enemies but deal less damage to everyone else?

Like it deals %50 more damage to your scrapper but deal half damage to everyone else.

Probably not with these stats but you got my point.

It could be kind of good in team environment, or hell on solo. Kind of situational.

[Luminara]

36 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I get that, except that Singularity uses an inverse repel to draw targets to it, with the result being the target reaches the Singularity, moves past it, is drawn towards it for not being at it, and the target keeps shifting around the Singularity because of the constant attraction. The constant duration as long as the Singularity is not defeated or times out keeps targets moving to it even if they get drawn past it. Hence, my expectation that the variable duration would be necessitated by Confront not being a sustained power.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pets.singularity.gravitational_pull&at=minion_pets

 

It's not constant, it's just a short activation period and a slightly longer duration.  There are no constant powers in the game, nothing that is, in reality, always on.  Everything that appears to be perpetual is just short activations and overlapping durations.

 

Repel has no variability in duration, nor any way to check distance and shut off.  Both of those mechanics exist in different forms (status effect durations are increased when enhancements are slotted, and snipes have a distance check), but neither exist in Repel.  Repel, if it were applied in the way indicated in this thread, would either drop a target short of the scrapper, or continue to pull the target (thus becoming a mez) even when it was in melee range, because the only way it can currently work is by setting the duration to a specific number.  Allowing the power to measure the distance and set a duration appropriate to pull the target exactly that distance is how it could be made to work.  That would require jiggering some code in, similar to the magnitude variable in Gravitational Pull (which is what makes it weak at a distance and strong up close), and adapting snipe code for the distance check, then applying the duration in an expression like...

 

Duration=((velocity)*dist/100) seconds

 

with velocity being the distance an entity travels in 1 second while being Repelled, and dist being the distance between the user and the target.  With these adjustments, one could pull an enemy from 70' away or 12' away and in either case the duration of the Repel would be just long enough to move the target into melee range, without dropping it early or holding it in place for several seconds.  That would make it an acceptable melee pull.  Not too strong, not crap that only seems to work sometimes.  It is still abusable, because you can Repel, or inverse Repel, an enemy into the air, which would allow someone to YOINK a target straight up and drop it... but falling damage subtracts from XP earned (the ground is an XP-stealing griefer), and to the best of my knowledge, very few of the toughest enemies are vulnerable to Repel, so it wouldn't be terribly exploitable.  Especially as a single-target power.

 

Variable mag wouldn't resolve the issue, that's already possible and it's not the applicable solution.  The only approach is variable duration with a distance check.

[Wavicle]

13 minutes ago, Darkneblade said:

What if Confront amp up damage of your enemies but deal less damage to everyone else?

Like it deals %50 more damage to your scrapper but deal half damage to everyone else.

Probably not with these stats but you got my point.

It could be kind of good in team environment, or hell on solo. Kind of situational.

I don’t really think there’s any way to justify giving Scrappers additional tools for either damage or tanking. That’s why I was looking at movement, of either yourself or your foe.

[Darkneblade]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I don’t really think there’s any way to justify giving Scrappers additional tools for either damage or tanking. That’s why I was looking at movement, of either yourself or your foe.

Yeah, I hear you. I was actually looking from realistic point of view, you know? Like, it angers your target or whatever.

You could also give it -to hit debuff (because anger) and call it a day.

Or really give it chance to confuse even. Because you know, anger...

 

[A Cat]

Not totally related but if they ever make a whip melee or tentacle melee, the inverse repel should be a thing for that power set. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

What if Confront just acted like TP Enemy to Me?

[TheZag]

Confront is mostly skippable as it is now because of what it is usually needed for.  You can close distance on a ranged target faster than waiting for them to come to you and you can save an ally by attacking the target that has agro on them since the scrapper has a higher natural threat than most ATs that the scrapper would need to save.

 

I think something that could make it useful while also giving some risk/reward would be for confront to cause the enemy to take more damage from you and deal more damage to you,  kinda like being in a 1v1 duel situation.  The effect would only work if the enemy is actually targeting you (no using confront on the AV that is attacking the tank for free damage).  Its also only for that scrapper (using confront on a target that is attacking another scrapper doesnt trigger the increased damage taken effect on them,  although it maybe could trigger your damage boost if they are currently confronted by another scrapper).

 

I dont know what good values would be,  but i think the damage received from the confronted target would be increased more than the boost in the scrappers damage to that target.  It would probably need to vary based on enemy rank as well to prevent runaway scrapper damage on powerful targets. This would probably represent loss of functionality for some players who dont want to risk taking increased damage from their confronted target but i feel it is in line with the intent of a single target taunt power.

 

[WindDemon21]

I was thinking about this the other day actually lol. Confront should be more useful. I was thinking a small -resistance debuff, nothing breaking where you'd feel the need to get it every time, only like 10% or something, but it would give the power something extra. At only 10%, i'd still definitely skip it on all my builds, but that means it's probably at a good level. And the reasoning behind it would be that you agitate the enemy so much they let their guard down etc.

[arcane]

Confront is in better shape than it’s ever been now that taunting Scrappers are the meta for 4* content. No changes needed.

[Doomguide2005]

On 10/23/2023 at 12:30 PM, arcane said:

Confront is in better shape than it’s ever been now that taunting Scrappers are the meta for 4* content. No changes needed.

     I'm guessing if this is the case it's for the same reason I used Confront long ago.  Pre-IO, when TOs and DOs were a thing and I was Science Origin.  A bunch of Vahz puking all over you was and is still a lot of Toxic pain only now it's getting multiple 4☆ foes down on the team rather than Vahz 😳