Lets talk Regeneration Set

[Without_Pause]

39 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

Sorry, missed this.

 

Question: What level of performance do I believe is necessary before a set is considered "good" or even "acceptable?"

 

Answer: To be on par with literally all other sets. Regeneration is not on par, not even remotely close. Regeneration got left way behind a very long time ago.

To add, I don't have a direct answer. I will say part of the difficulty is any set can be deemed acceptable, and yet be the worst set. Case in point, I find so many primary sets for a Defender as being way more than acceptable, and yet one of them wins out for being the worst. Soloing x8 has as much to do with the melee set as it does Regen. If the melee set is ST focused, then that's going to take more time to work through a x8 mob. My Ill/dark technically does AoE, and yet I have zero desire to solo that at x8. Giving Regen something like Ice is a significant boon to its ability to deal with things. Personally speaking, I would deem +2 on the lower end and more so if the character is 50+1. There are very few exceptions where a build would need to go against even level mobs if the build is done right. There is a red side mission where a mob is basically nothing but EBs. Heaven help you if you have your diff setting set for AVs. There's no shame in needing to lower your diff setting for that, nor I think Mr. G's arc even if I figured out how to do +3. I believe one of them does End Drain, Slows, and -Recharge. If you don't have a ranged attack, good luck.

 

FYI, depending on how things spawn in a mission, I've had my /stone Brute have serious End issues against enough Mu. Regen has nothing to protect against End drain.

 

TL; DR. If you can solo comfortably at +3/x8 on Regen on a rather high number of maps then great. I'm guessing every other armor set can do it as well and in some cases even more maps or even just having an easier time. 

 

Note, my namesake here was a Claws/regen Scrapper on Live. I used common IOs. It was fine for old school soloing for the diff settings we had at that time. End game mobs were a bit annoying though.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Without_Pause

[Neiska]

I think Regen is too strong and needs to be nerfed.

[biostem]

Regeneration is, for all intents and purposes, and unlike most other armor sets, reactive instead of proactive.  Sure, you could hit dull pain in anticipation of taking a big hit, but most of the set's schtick is to take the damage head-on then heal back up afterward.  This is contrary to most players' expectations, IMO.  It's a good set where you have other forms of mitigation, via your attack set, pool powers, or other sources.  I think that if you look at it from this perspective, you'll have a better outcome...

[Without_Pause]

11 minutes ago, biostem said:

Regeneration is, for all intents and purposes, and unlike most other armor sets, reactive instead of proactive.  Sure, you could hit dull pain in anticipation of taking a big hit, but most of the set's schtick is to take the damage head-on then heal back up afterward.  This is contrary to most players' expectations, IMO.  It's a good set where you have other forms of mitigation, via your attack set, pool powers, or other sources.  I think that if you look at it from this perspective, you'll have a better outcome...

It also means you spend time reacting via clicks versus simply attacking more. Bio is also click heavy, but it also is Bio.

[Captain Fabulous]

Regen is fine as it is. It excels in earning you all the debt badges. Just make sure you have ~1 billion INF to trick out your character with the best IO sets to bring yourself up to par with other sets with just SOs.

[Psi-bolt]

2 hours ago, liveevil2000 said:

WOW! Just checked back.  I didn't know this was such a hot topic. 

Now I get why ...

I'm both glad I asked and sorry.

 

.... lets see .... what other powersets can I spark a debate with .... hmmmmmm🤔

This is a painful topic.  Regen was within a doubt the set that was nerfed the most among armor sets.  It plays completely differently than it did in the beginning. 

[Snarky]

they are nerfing Regen in the next big update.  

[Captain Fabulous]

18 minutes ago, Snarky said:

they are nerfing Regen in the next big update.  

/powercreep

[cranebump]

Feels like the assumed litmus test for a lot of folks is “will it solo overclocked mobs, mishes and bosses.” Might pay to ask the OP what they consider “good.” 

[Captain Fabulous]

2 hours ago, cranebump said:

Feels like the assumed litmus test for a lot of folks is “will it solo overclocked mobs, mishes and bosses.” Might pay to ask the OP what they consider “good.” 

PSA: the game is balanced around SOs. So if you're comparing relative performance of one set to another do it with SOs (or common IOs), not a fully tricked out IO build. That's the baseline. How well a set performs with set IOs and Incarnates is irrelevant, because both raise the level of performance so high above baseline even crappy sets perform well enough.

[TheZag]

Unfortunately,  regeneration is the suck now.  It is an empty husk of what it once was,  weathered and beaten by the sands of the OG devs until the lifeless lump you see before you is all that's left.  Only brutes can empathize with the number of nerfs that this powerset has received.

 

It used to take 18 slots and 3 extra power picks to make the instant healing toggle able to be left on all the time - 6 in stamina (fitness wasnt inherent and not needed in 'normal' builds), 6 in quick recovery,  and 6 in instant healing (4 or 5 slotted for endurance reduction).  This was before diminishing returns so players had to get a ton of recovery to perma run IH.  However,  an 18 slot and 3 extra power pick investment for 1 power to be used in a way that the OG devs hadnt intended was considered imbalanced so they nerfed it until regen players were forced to play as the OG devs had originally envisioned.

 

Instant healing toggle sucked up all the endurance from those 12 slots of recovery and a single power with so much devoted to it should be pretty strong.  Of course it was overpowered back then but it is a joke of an underpowered set now.  Ive soft capped defense and hard capped resist on several tanks and brutes.  Spend a billion on almost any armor set and you end up with a character that can handle most enemy groups on high settings.  Spend a billion on regen and you get a character that can usually survive against council if you manage your click abilities properly.

 

Dont play degeneration if you want a top performing character.  Play it if you like to chill at +1 or occasionally +2 and you absolutely require degen for your theme.  Otherwise swallow the blue pill and pretend that willpower is actually regeneration if you want a useful performing character.

 

[Neiska]

1 hour ago, Captain Fabulous said:

PSA: the game is balanced around SOs. So if you're comparing relative performance of one set to another do it with SOs (or common IOs), not a fully tricked out IO build. That's the baseline. How well a set performs with set IOs and Incarnates is irrelevant, because both raise the level of performance so high above baseline even crappy sets perform well enough.

 

I am genuinely curious as to a source for that, because I have heard it before. I am not insinuating you are wrong or anything like that, only where the idea comes from. To my mind, the game has essentially gone through expansions/new issues and had things updated and changed. I mean, I doubt anyone would be doing raids or incarnate content with just SOs. I imagine it could be done, but I also suspect they didn't design those kinds of activities with just SOs in mind. To use another game as an analogy, that's like saying that classic wow was based around T1 sets when it's possible to get T10 now or whatever. Also, I think it's important to be specific about what part of the game is balanced for what level of play. If the point is the "entire' game is balanced around SOs I would disagree. But if the point is that classes/powers are balanced with one another with SO level of player power, I could see that to a point.

Again, not saying you are wrong, only that I am wondering where that point originates from, and that context matters. That and true "balance' among all ATs/Powersets/Activities/Inf and time invested is very difficult to take all those things into account. I think they have DPS in a good spot. But a lot of things in some situations (or many) don't really have their niche or time in the spotlight, Regen being one of them.

[biostem]

7 minutes ago, Neiska said:

I am genuinely curious as to a source for that, because I have heard it before.

I can't point to a specific source, but you can get a pretty good idea by looking at armor sets, like SR, that have click mez protection and comparing their duration with the amount of slotting required to make it permanent.  Couple that with the amount of slots we're given by 50 and how IO sets typically include "other" attributes that one wouldn't usually slot for, if they only had SOs, which can do more with those same slots, but still reach the point of steep ED diminishing returns.

[Without_Pause]

There is a narrative that the game is balanced around SOs and that the games in balanced around one hero taking on a mob of three. We are talking at the start of the game. That was Jack's vision. This was also back in the day where a diff setting maxed at +2, IIRC. That's +2 and whatever the team size was, again, IIRC. The problem is this: that Dev team is oh so very long gone, the diff setting got reworked under said Dev team, and they introduced IOs. Hell, there's a bunch more of the Incarnate system which was going to be added, but it got never added as that was going to be the end game standard. In other words, if you want to compare builds with SOs at the original diff settings, knock yourself out. However, the current team has offered no impression for what the game is currently balanced against. IOs are easier to get then ever thanks in part due to the current Dev team. And to be fair, even the team on Live never really stated what would be a new standard or what it was post IOs. I would argue the player base has taken over what balanced is. That's where things get fuzzy. Some people like the old standard SOs as a basis. Some aim for something higher, and then there are the min/maxers. Realistically, there is no standard. I personally play things which are fun. That for me includes IOs, so that's my standard.

 

I've recently dusted off some level 50s which only have Level 25 Common IOs in them. I still feel like I contribute and the team steamrolled just fine. BUT, I noticed touches of End issues. The lack of global recharge. Just a bunch of little things which make me want to IO out the build knowing a build takes a leap with IOs. I remember taking a Spines/fire Brute from common IOs to IO sets and it was that, "Oh" moment where you knew you weren't ever going back.

 

And yes, I got a chuckle recently out of street sweeping Hallows at Level 5 taking on mobs of 4 with no real issue. 

 

[Captain Fabulous]

2 hours ago, Neiska said:

 

I am genuinely curious as to a source for that, because I have heard it before. I am not insinuating you are wrong or anything like that, only where the idea comes from. To my mind, the game has essentially gone through expansions/new issues and had things updated and changed. I mean, I doubt anyone would be doing raids or incarnate content with just SOs. I imagine it could be done, but I also suspect they didn't design those kinds of activities with just SOs in mind. To use another game as an analogy, that's like saying that classic wow was based around T1 sets when it's possible to get T10 now or whatever. Also, I think it's important to be specific about what part of the game is balanced for what level of play. If the point is the "entire' game is balanced around SOs I would disagree. But if the point is that classes/powers are balanced with one another with SO level of player power, I could see that to a point.

Again, not saying you are wrong, only that I am wondering where that point originates from, and that context matters. That and true "balance' among all ATs/Powersets/Activities/Inf and time invested is very difficult to take all those things into account. I think they have DPS in a good spot. But a lot of things in some situations (or many) don't really have their niche or time in the spotlight, Regen being one of them.

Because that's what we've always been told by the devs since the early days on live. The reason being is this: IOs and Incarnates were always considered optional systems, whereas TO/DO/SOs were easily accessible from any vendor for a fixed price. So for those who wanted to up the difficulty and take on greater challenges the options were there if you were willing to put in the time and effort, but it's not required to do 99% of the game's content. As we've also been told, the majority of players use only SOs, even at level 50, assumedly because they're not interested in dealing with crafting, they just want to hop on and play and SOs are good enough, even for most TFs.

If powersets were balanced around IOs and Incarnates it would force people into those systems as SO builds would no longer be viable. And trying to balance this way would be a nightmare, as there are so many options when it comes to sets and Incarnates. Balance has to be done around the least common denominator, which in this game is SOs.

[Lines]

10 hours ago, liveevil2000 said:

.... lets see .... what other powersets can I spark a debate with .... hmmmmmm🤔

 

Super Strength.

[SwitchFade]

Let's Nerf Regan!

 

 

TWICE!

[liveevil2000]

11 hours ago, cranebump said:

Feels like the assumed litmus test for a lot of folks is “will it solo overclocked mobs, mishes and bosses.” Might pay to ask the OP what they consider “good.” 

I never asked if it was good. 
My observation after looking at the set on paper was, it didn’t really have any damage mitigation like other sets. So question became, does it regen well enough to compensate for the lack of def/resist?

 

my gut told me a toon with this set will face plant a ton without a boat load of help. 
 

after reading the posts here and seeing the heated debate it stirred up. I decided to see for myself. 
 

I made 4 toons last night. 
all Brutes. All with claws as a primary.  All science origin. Seemed a fitting  set and origin with regen and a “controlled scientific” experiment and all. 
… and yes same costume design! I’m lazy that way. 

The defensive sets going head to head are

regeneration

willpower

super reflexes

Invulnerability 

 

I figure all 4 sets can simulate a certain metal claw wielding character with a pointy face mask and yellow tights. 

I intend to lvl them the same way, doing the same missions. Not taking any pool powers.  Keeping their enhancements fresh as much as possible. Not using any inspirations. 

I will call this the face planting test. To give each set a fair shake. I will go to lvl 25 and track the amount of defeats for each. 
 

On just the numbers and what I’m reading about each set. 
I think in order of survival , it will be

Invulnerability 

super reflexes / willpower (they seem close)

regeneration. 
 

I will find out how close I am to my prediction. 
I’ll post my finding if any of you are interested. 
 

[Psi-bolt]

17 minutes ago, liveevil2000 said:

I never asked if it was good. 
My observation after looking at the set on paper was, it didn’t really have any damage mitigation like other sets. So question became, does it regen well enough to compensate for the lack of def/resist?

 

my gut told me a toon with this set will face plant a ton without a boat load of help. 
 

after reading the posts here and seeing the heated debate it stirred up. I decided to see for myself. 
 

I made 4 toons last night. 
all Brutes. All with claws as a primary.  All science origin. Seemed a fitting  set and origin with regen and a “controlled scientific” experiment and all. 
… and yes same costume design! I’m lazy that way. 

The defensive sets going head to head are

regeneration

willpower

super reflexes

Invulnerability 

 

I figure all 4 sets can simulate a certain metal claw wielding character with a pointy face mask and yellow tights. 

I intend to lvl them the same way, doing the same missions. Not taking any pool powers.  Keeping their enhancements fresh as much as possible. Not using any inspirations. 

I will call this the face planting test. To give each set a fair shake. I will go to lvl 25 and track the amount of defeats for each. 
 

On just the numbers and what I’m reading about each set. 
I think in order of survival , it will be

Invulnerability 

super reflexes / willpower (they seem close)

regeneration. 
 

I will find out how close I am to my prediction. 
I’ll post my finding if any of you are interested. 
 

I’m not sure what difficulty you will be using but at baseline all four of those sets should be able to make it to 25 without any deaths at all unless you’re pushing the difficulty way beyond what lowbies are expected to accomplish.   I’m not sure what the point would be, then.

 

There are other considerations such as time investment since to the extent that Regen has any advantage over other sets, limited downtime is one.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Psi-bolt

[Scarlet Shocker]

 

[liveevil2000]

46 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

I’m not sure what difficulty you will be using but at baseline all four of those sets should be able to make it to 25 without any deaths at all unless you’re pushing the difficulty way beyond what lowbies are expected to accomplish.   I’m not sure what the point would be, then.

 

There are other considerations such as time investment since to the extent that Regen has any advantage over other sets, limited downtime is one.

Good point!

Time is a factor, I will track that also.

As for difficulty, +1/1 shouldn't be a problem.

What's the point? Simple curiosity.

[Without_Pause]

+1/1 won't be a problem for anything using SOs. I'm not sure there will be that much variance if you went +2. I can't recall how much I soloed at +2 on my Claws/regen. The real issue is when you are to add in bigger mobs. WP is fantastic until the debuffs start cascading in. 

 

I do think Claws is a bit of a cheat as Shockwave and Focus can provide a decent amount of mitigation. Case in point, I would use Shockwave as my alpha strike. I think Fire does a better job of seeing if an armor set can stand on its own, but since all characters use it, it should be fine. 

[Solarverse]

9 hours ago, Neiska said:

 

I am genuinely curious as to a source for that, because I have heard it before. I am not insinuating you are wrong or anything like that, only where the idea comes from. To my mind, the game has essentially gone through expansions/new issues and had things updated and changed. I mean, I doubt anyone would be doing raids or incarnate content with just SOs. I imagine it could be done, but I also suspect they didn't design those kinds of activities with just SOs in mind. To use another game as an analogy, that's like saying that classic wow was based around T1 sets when it's possible to get T10 now or whatever. Also, I think it's important to be specific about what part of the game is balanced for what level of play. If the point is the "entire' game is balanced around SOs I would disagree. But if the point is that classes/powers are balanced with one another with SO level of player power, I could see that to a point.

Again, not saying you are wrong, only that I am wondering where that point originates from, and that context matters. That and true "balance' among all ATs/Powersets/Activities/Inf and time invested is very difficult to take all those things into account. I think they have DPS in a good spot. But a lot of things in some situations (or many) don't really have their niche or time in the spotlight, Regen being one of them.

 

Just some food for thought here. Raids used to be done with just SO's. Hammi Raid was long before IOs and if memory serves, the Statesman's Task Force (AKA Ms. Liberty Task Force) was also before IO's. The thing is, teams used to play differently, very differently. Blasters did not run off on their own and clear maps, if a Blaster so much as got out of line, that blaster would face smash on the pavement and have half the team yelling at him. Healers were actually needed and sought out, team structure was important as far as building a balanced team and everyone knowing how to play their part. Buffers and Healers made up for the lack of IOs in those days.

So in that sense, the game was still balanced around SO's, people just played far differently.

[Without_Pause]

While the term 'healers' was a talking point as CoH went against the holy MMO trinity, it felt like seeing the request to add one to a team on Freedom was like breathing. I think I pretty much had a 2 support minimum for teams. Good thing my main was a Kin Defender, and I defaulted to playing support overall. Now? I can be the only support on a team and we steamroll things. I've been on teams where I'm the only support, I'm playing TA, and no one says boo. Back before IOs, I had been on so many teams which literally wouldn't start without adding an Emp. The standard might be the same, but the old meta feels a bit like a foreign country.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Without_Pause

[liveevil2000]

54 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

I do think Claws is a bit of a cheat as Shockwave and Focus can provide a decent amount of mitigation. Case in point, I would use Shockwave as my alpha strike. I think Fire does a better job of seeing if an armor set can stand on its own, but since all characters use it, it should be fine. 

I dont think I'd have access to Shockwave until lvl26 and for this test I'd going to 25. But even so, it's still even ground I would think. I'm sure every offensive set would have some kind of mitigation to it from higher DPS to finish off things quicker to disorienting and KB.

 

could always just have a toon stand there and take a pounding and see how long it takes to hit the pavement ... but what fun is that?