Let's Talk About the Holy Trinity

[macskull]

4 hours ago, Solarverse said:

I think he meant the rest of the game. Hard Mode content doesn't exactly make up a very significant portion of the game. Just taking a guess anyway.

Sure, but they're claiming the game's moving toward "no challenge whatsoever," when that is demonstrably not the case. (That's also glossing over the fact that this game's never been challenging at a basic level once you understand how it works.)

[Solarverse]

14 minutes ago, macskull said:

Sure, but they're claiming the game's moving toward "no challenge whatsoever," when that is demonstrably not the case. (That's also glossing over the fact that this game's never been challenging at a basic level once you understand how it works.)

 

Fair enough.

[Digirium]

Impossible to read everything in this thread, although some does not "compute" whichever angle it is viewed.

 

Yes, I played in live from opening to sunset. Yes, the so-called "Holy Trinity" existed it was real it was a fact. I think that because characters in those days were a fraction of the "powered up" level that exists today. You had to follow the pattern because it was the most effective way to play. It prevented team members from consistently "eating dirt" and allowed the team to make progress. Today, the "Holy Trinity" is less required than it was because characters can "power up" through IO sets and the advantages offered. Hard mode challenges are the exception, I feel.

 

I do perceive a problem with players playing today. They're locked in to "speedy mode is on the only effective way", they infect other players with the same ideology. This is not all bad, it is effective. However, there are anti-patterns establishing themselves in to game play today. These are less effective play methods and have parallels to the past that cause team members to "eat dirt".

 

For example: herding and the chaos that ensues.

[cranebump]

10 hours ago, macskull said:

Sure, but they're claiming the game's moving toward "no challenge whatsoever," when that is demonstrably not the case. (That's also glossing over the fact that this game's never been challenging at a basic level once you understand how it works.)

My comment, above, was (evidently not so) obviously a sarcastic retort. What I really think of all this bullshit is that people can set the level of challenge however they want. You can make default, mission-based play more challenging simply by not taking the shortcuts (seeding new toons; taking all the P2W goodies; running "optimal" powersets, etc., etc., etc.).*

 

That said, I do think the default game, in team mode, running with PuGs, tends to be a rapid curbstomp, especially in Task Forces, which are routinely set on +X/x8. That was not my experience before shutdown. Now, if I'm going to jump on a TF (esp on Excelsior), I have to have my motor revved from the get go, because it's going to be a bumrush all the way through (show me where that is not demonstrably true) Again, not the case before shutdown. Not even close. Not saying it's better or worse, but it sure seems, eh, "breezier."

 

All I know is this: I'm 60 now. At some point, I'm not going to be able to keep up. Unless the whole population hits decrepitude the same time as I do. (2032: "Pos1 TF forming. Turtle Run. -1/+0. Geezers only.):-) 

 

*FYI: the mere presence of QoL freebies through P2W automatically makes the game easier from the get go. Just moving from one place to another is much easier now than it was (which jibes with how travel powers became available at lower levels). We could argue that it always should have been this way, but it does show the gradual, steady arc toward "ease."

Edited September 27, 2023 by cranebump

[macskull]

10 hours ago, cranebump said:

My comment, above, was (evidently not so) obviously a sarcastic retort. What I really think of all this bullshit is that people can set the level of challenge however they want. You can make default, mission-based play more challenging simply by not taking the shortcuts (seeding new toons; taking all the P2W goodies; running "optimal" powersets, etc., etc., etc.).*

 

That said, I do think the default game, in team mode, running with PuGs, tends to be a rapid curbstomp, especially in Task Forces, which are routinely set on +X/x8. That was not my experience before shutdown. Now, if I'm going to jump on a TF (esp on Excelsior), I have to have my motor revved from the get go, because it's going to be a bumrush all the way through (show me where that is not demonstrably true) Again, not the case before shutdown. Not even close. Not saying it's better or worse, but it sure seems, eh, "breezier."

 

All I know is this: I'm 60 now. At some point, I'm not going to be able to keep up. Unless the whole population hits decrepitude the same time as I do. (2032: "Pos1 TF forming. Turtle Run. -1/+0. Geezers only.):-) 

 

*FYI: the mere presence of QoL freebies through P2W automatically makes the game easier from the get go. Just moving from one place to another is much easier now than it was (which jibes with how travel powers became available at lower levels). We could argue that it always should have been this way, but it does show the gradual, steady arc toward "ease."

Anecdotal, of course, but I do see plenty of "steamroll" or "kill-most" or "[insert difficulty that is not +0]" task forces forming on Excelsior.

 

I think a lot of the QoL stuff is just because there's no need to keep a subscriber base locked into the grind to keep subscriptions going, and the P2W store does a pretty decent job at serving as an inf sink to keep AH prices low. Re: lower-level travel powers and such... when travel powers were still unlocked at level 14 you were basically shoehorned into taking a prerequisite power at some level between 6 and 12, and a travel power at 14. Getting to 14 and finally unlocking that travel power felt like an accomplishment, and there is something to be said about that sense of accomplishment, but when that accomplishment comes at the price of the everything before it feeling crappy, I'm not sure how much of an accomplishment it really is.

[cranebump]

8 minutes ago, macskull said:

Re: lower-level travel powers and such... when travel powers were still unlocked at level 14 you were basically shoehorned into taking a prerequisite power at some level between 6 and 12, and a travel power at 14. Getting to 14 and finally unlocking that travel power felt like an accomplishment, and there is something to be said about that sense of accomplishment, but when that accomplishment comes at the price of the everything before it feeling crappy, I'm not sure how much of an accomplishment it really is.

Oh, yeah. For sure. These are improvements, no doubt. I don't recall how crappy I felt, but waiting for 20 before the capes...yeah that was, um...that was a thing.

[golstat2003]

On 9/26/2023 at 10:28 PM, macskull said:

Sure, but they're claiming the game's moving toward "no challenge whatsoever," when that is demonstrably not the case. (That's also glossing over the fact that this game's never been challenging at a basic level once you understand how it works.)

 

Quoted again for the truth.

[golstat2003]

The game never had a trinity.

 

Even back in issue 2 when I started playing folks were already figuring out that the tank, healer, dps model was stupid to use in COH, not when Defenders and Controllers existed.

 

As others have stated, you could form teams where not a single heal or taunt was needed ever.

 

To me, that's all you need to know.

Edited October 2, 2023 by golstat2003

[Doomguide2005]

On 9/27/2023 at 7:44 AM, Digirium said:

Impossible to read everything in this thread, although some does not "compute" whichever angle it is viewed.

 

Yes, I played in live from opening to sunset. Yes, the so-called "Holy Trinity" existed it was real it was a fact. I think that because characters in those days were a fraction of the "powered up" level that exists today. You had to follow the pattern because it was the most effective way to play. It prevented team members from consistently "eating dirt" and allowed the team to make progress. Today, the "Holy Trinity" is less required than it was because characters can "power up" through IO sets and the advantages offered. Hard mode challenges are the exception, I feel.

 

I do perceive a problem with players playing today. They're locked in to "speedy mode is on the only effective way", they infect other players with the same ideology. This is not all bad, it is effective. However, there are anti-patterns establishing themselves in to game play today. These are less effective play methods and have parallels to the past that cause team members to "eat dirt".

 

For example: herding and the chaos that ensues.

Yes the Trinity existed.  Still exists.  Needed or most effective or efficient perhaps when Tankers could herd entire maps to a dumpster to nuke to oblivion with 6-slotted damage vs at max +3 mobs but given the speed 8 Fire/Rads or Fire/Kins sporting a dozen Imps a each might move through those mobs ... maybe the Tanker would actually be slower to arrive at the dumpster than all those crazed Controllers annihilated the last spawn.  We'll never likely know and it certainly isn't true today.  It's a very different game from back then.

[Solarverse]

On 9/27/2023 at 8:30 AM, cranebump said:

What I really think of all this bullshit is that people can set the level of challenge however they want. You can make default, mission-based play more challenging simply by not taking the shortcuts (seeding new toons; taking all the P2W goodies; running "optimal" powersets, etc., etc., etc.).*

 

 

That is not the issue though. The issue is when you create a team advertising a +2 KM run, then you have somebody who runs off to the end to kill the boss, then when that player is asked not to do so and the player responds with, "You can't tell me howto play" that becomes a problem. It forces you to either kick the player, or conform to that player's play methods and let him control your team. This is a growing trend that I am seeing more often and it comes from the, "Speedy" generation of players. Nobody who plays the game on a regular speed and a slightly more difficult setting has ever done the reverse to a Speedy team. The awareness needs to be made and that type of behavior should not be tolerated...by anyone.

To me, when you join a team, you play what the team leader advertises, you don't join that team and force it along and override the team lead's preferences. These players will do two things. They will enter the mission before you can even zone in to the zone (Two things, they are skilled at zoning fast and when they enter the mission before you can zone, it defaults the mobs to +0) and then they make a straight B-Line to the Boss and kill that boss and clear the room.

This is why this thread exists, to spread awareness and encourage like-minded players to not tolerate such behavior. I for one am done with it, I have had enough and I am sure there are others who feel the same way.

My message? Don't tolerate it. It's time for these players to be removed from the team and be done with them.

I had one just last night on a Synapse Run who kept running off and getting killed. I had asked this player to stick with the team several times, even ended up calling him out by name. He completely ignored me. On the third to last mission, he ran straight to the end (he must have not realized it was a save the citizens mission and thought instead that it was a kill boss and guards mission) and once again got himself killed. I once again ask this player to stop, by name. Next mission, He entered mission and again ran straight for the boss, leaving the rest of us behind. He got the boot. I said to the team, "I'm sorry folks, (ENTER NAME HERE) will be unavailable to join the rest of us for the remainder of this Task Force."

 

This is sadly how these players will have to be dealt with.

Now, before anyone accuses me of hating Speed Runners, let me say, not all Speed Runners will join your team and do this...most that I have met are very open to playing however, but sadly, there are a few (a few? Uncertain just how many) bad apples who are giving Speed Runners as a whole a bad name, and that is not fair to Speed Runners since most that I have met would never behave this way.

Anyway, so as you can see, it doesn't matter how you set the game, play the game or build your character, when you get players like this, none of that matters as they will do whatever in the hell they want to anyway. This is where I encourage players to make use of the kick function.

 

Edit: Of course for whatever reason I thought this was the "Speed Runners vs Regular Team" thread, so just know my comment although true from my perspective, isn't really relevant to this thread, lol

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Solarverse
Had to...

[cranebump]

I agree. My comment about settings was in reference to the general ease of play. Players who join a team with full knowledge of expectations, only to consistently ignore them (and subsequent warnings), deserve what they get. Be a dick, get kicked.

[Andreah]

10 hours ago, Solarverse said:

when they enter the mission before you can zone, it defaults the mobs to +0)

I'm pretty sure this problem was fixed. I haven't seen it happen in a long time.

[Solarverse]

4 hours ago, Andreah said:

I'm pretty sure this problem was fixed. I haven't seen it happen in a long time.

 

If the problem was fixed, then explain why this is happening?

I can tell you that I know for 100% fact that this is not fixed. It is a known issue.

 

Edit: Also, you are not alone in your thinking, many people think as you do and it makes the issue even worse because people will ignore your request, enter the mission thinking that you are full of shit, then go, "Oops, sorry. I guess you were right." If you have not seen it in a long time then either you never run content any harder than +0, don't lead Task Force Runs, or just so happen to only lead the ones that are restricted to only one zone, such as Pen Yin. It happens to everyone, no matter who you are.

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Solarverse

[Snarky]

8 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

If the problem was fixed, then explain why this is happening?

I can tell you that I know for 100% fact that this is not fixed. It is a known issue.

 

Edit: Also, you are not alone in your thinking, many people think as you do and it makes the issue even worse because people will ignore your request, enter the mission thinking that you are full of shit, then go, "Oops, sorry. I guess you were right." If you have not seen it in a long time then either you never run content any harder than +0, don't lead Task Force Runs, or just so happen to only lead the ones that are restricted to only one zone, such as Pen Yin. It happens to everyone, no matter who you are.

 

 

I ran a lot of +0 Task Forces for a couple months March-June.  I can tell you there was never an issue with someone entering first and the mission going to +4 because that was their settings.  

 

I have no data on the opposite scenario of running at +4 constantly and someone entering first at +0 and the TF setting that mission at +0.

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I ran a lot of +0 Task Forces for a couple months March-June.  I can tell you there was never an issue with someone entering first and the mission going to +4 because that was their settings.  

 

I have no data on the opposite scenario of running at +4 constantly and someone entering first at +0 and the TF setting that mission at +0.

 

That's not how it works though. So the way it works (I am actually surprised the awareness on this is so little in the community) is that when a mission takes place in a new zone, and somebody goes to that zone and enters the mission before the leader can enter the zone of that mission, that mission will default to +0. It is repeatable and it will happen every time regardless of what the leader has the missions set to and regardless of what the player who enters the mission has his mission difficulty set to.

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Solarverse

[Andreah]

I run a lot of +4 content across multiple zones, and I don't see it happening. I used to see this commonly and then I recall a patch specifically calling out this problem as fixed and since then I haven't seen it at all. If there's specific content where this still happens, maybe so. Otherwise, I'd like to see proof it's still widely broken. 

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, Andreah said:

I run a lot of +4 content across multiple zones, and I don't see it happening. I used to see this commonly and then I recall a patch specifically calling out this problem as fixed and since then I haven't seen it at all. If there's specific content where this still happens, maybe so. Otherwise, I'd like to see proof it's still widely broken. 

 

It...is...known. The Devs are aware of it. I don't just go around these forums lying.

[Snarky]

1 minute ago, Andreah said:

I run a lot of +4 content across multiple zones, and I don't see it happening. I used to see this commonly and then I recall a patch specifically calling out this problem as fixed and since then I haven't seen it at all. If there's specific content where this still happens, maybe so. Otherwise, I'd like to see proof it's still widely broken. 

this should take less than 10 minutes to test by someone motivated.

 

do not even look at me....

 

[drbuzzard]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

 

It...is...known. The Devs are aware of it. I don't just go around these forums lying.

 

It's one of those intermittent bugs. I've seen it happen sometimes, but certainly not all the time. Rather like the noise that vanishes in your car when you go to the mechanic. 

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, Snarky said:

this should take less than 10 minutes to test by someone motivated.

 

do not even look at me....

 

 

I guess I am going to have to, because people need to be aware of this. The awareness on this is unbelievably little and I am frankly tired of having this debate with people who are unaware. I am logging in now just to make a video to show proof.

[Solarverse]

47 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

 

It's one of those intermittent bugs. I've seen it happen sometimes, but certainly not all the time. Rather like the noise that vanishes in your car when you go to the mechanic. 

 

I have reason to suspect that it is not intermittent. I'll explain after my wife and I finish our tests. There seems to be a specific method to this.

[Andreah]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

I have reason to suspect that it is not intermittent. I'll explain after my wife and I finish our tests. There seems to be a specific method to this.

Some detailed information about it would be really helpful.  I appreciate your stepping up to investigate and document it!

[lemming]

Hmm, tried this with the lead at +4 and one other char who entered while the lead was out of zone.  Both level 50s.

Dark Astoria Ephram Sha - stuck at +4

Synnapse - stayed at +4

 

So, didn't happen with that.  I have seen it happen, though most people wait for the team lead to be in zone often enough that it's been awhile.   I know a patch note said they fixed it, then noted it still happening, so I think they fixed some instances of it.  Probably figuring out how to make it happen will be helpful to the devs.  There are quite a few more test cases to try out.  I suspect different levels could be a factor.

[Solarverse]

I have the video uploading to Youtube now. I'm going to shower while Youtube does its thing and then post the video after.

Sadly, I was unable to pinpoint the exact reason this happens. We thought we had it figured out a few times throughout the Citadel TF that we were on, but every time we thought we had it figured out, we would be proven wrong. The only conditions that must be met are this. A player must enter the mission before you enter the zone of the mission. That is the only common factor that I could detect. If I had to run an educated guess, I would say this has a 50/50 chance of bugging the difficulty of the mission. It does not happen every single time. It has absolutely nothing to do with what the player's difficulty is set to (which was tested) and has nothing to do with which Task Force you are on (which was also tested previous to our conversation) however, the one test I was unable to run, was to determine if the player's level had anything to do with it. I'll post the video after my long and overdue shower...or as we say in Kentucky, "shar."

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Solarverse
Clarity

[Solarverse]

@Andreah
 

 

Info above this post. Best I could do, hope this helps even on the smallest of levels. You will however take note at the end, another player (and friend) said, "There's your bug" indicating a recognition that the levels are not +2.

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Solarverse