Speedy vs Regular (Players forcing Speedy Runs on Regular Teams Needs to End)

[Solarverse]

7 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

These types of copmments?

Always somebody like me? 

Forum Police? 

 

I shared my opinion. 

 

A year ago I walked into a field to take my life because so many people were telling how worthless I was.

 

Maybe you are right. 

I just don't matter at all.

 

You win.

 

1You didn't come here to express your opinion, you came here to criticize me in how I am dealing with the problem.

 

Also, suicide is never the answer. I didn't tell you that you weren't worth anything. You put me in a position to defend myself and so I did. For all I know you're a great person. Good news is, I don't hold grudges. I might have an issue with you in this thread but completely have your back in another. Life is already short, no need to make it shorter.

 

Let's just end this and maybe next time you will find me fighting by your side instead of being at odds.

[WumpusRat]

How I play and lead TFs is pretty much the same. I want to get things done in a timely fashion, but I'm not out to break any speed records. And I'm completely fine with just caving in the faces of every mob on the path towards the objective. Sometimes it's a lot of fun to just leave a swathe of destruction behind you. And sometimes speeding things up can be nice, especially with sloggy TFs like Synapse or Citadel. 

 

If a TF is taking longer than normal (and "normal" is somewhat relative, but having been on both slow and short versions of all the TFs, I have a mental note as to what "normal" for me is for each one) but the group is chatty and we're having fun, I have no problem just tooling around and killing stuff while chatting. If nobody is talking and it's taking a long time, it does start to get a bit grindy. But that's pretty rare, at least on Everlasting. RPers tend to be a pretty talkative bunch in general.

 

Some missions I DO tend to pipe up about things that might make it smoother/easier, such as the Moonfire TF having someone with ATT park at the entrance and just yoink everyone back to the start to avoid having to escort Dr. Roberta "Deathwish" Todd.

 

For the most part though, when I join a TF it's because I either want the credit for it, the merits, some faster exp than soloing, or just to hang around with a group for a while. I tend to just go along with however the group is playing. 

[Clave Dark 5]

17 hours ago, Solarverse said:

 

Clearly I do. If you play on Excelsior, add me. I go under the same name globally. My wife and I would be happy to have you along. I seem to be forming a friendship with a few like-minded players in game, so finding others who like to run missions at a bit of a challenge (not over the top, just...at least having some risk of dying) is slowly getting easier over time.

I appreciate the offer, but I usually play at odd hours as I am a night shift worker.  After some years in the game too, I realize I'm also terrible about ever checking my friends list.  😕

[Solarverse]

4 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

I appreciate the offer, but I usually play at odd hours as I am a night shift worker.  After some years in the game too, I realize I'm also terrible about ever checking my friends list.  😕

 

Hahaha, fair enough. I'm a truck driver these days, so my hours are all over the place. I drive local though so that is a plus. If you ever change your mind you know how to reach out.  🙂

[vibal]

Pretty sure this is a reciprocal issue. I play fast and always advertise such. Also clarify before locking in what's happening. The amount of players who get sticker shock once the mayhem starts is pretty discouraging. I don't form up to ruin anyone's fun. The reward system for the majority of game content disproportionately incentivizes fast play. While I play for fun, I also enjoy maximizing my rewards for doing so. 

 

>shrug< Make the team you want. Play the game how you like, but a better title might be "Lets please focus on communicating team intent". As I could just as easily thread up with "We didn't all agree to PL you slowpokes". I'll happily hop on a sweep through Cit for a chuckle. I'm less inclined to presume that's what's cooking without some input from the team/lead. Nor do I think it's reasonable to presume there's a "correct" baseline play.

 

You can say pace is set by the slowest, but it's just as easy to justify saying the pace is set by the fastest player on the team.

 

 

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, vibal said:

Pretty sure this is a reciprocal issue. I play fast and always advertise such. Also clarify before locking in what's happening. The amount of players who get sticker shock once the mayhem starts is pretty discouraging. I don't form up to ruin anyone's fun. The reward system for the majority of game content disproportionately incentivizes fast play. While I play for fun, I also enjoy maximizing my rewards for doing so. 

 

>shrug< Make the team you want. Play the game how you like, but a better title might be "Lets please focus on communicating team intent". As I could just as easily thread up with "We didn't all agree to PL you slowpokes". I'll happily hop on a sweep through Cit for a chuckle. I'm less inclined to presume that's what's cooking without some input from the team/lead. Nor do I think it's reasonable to presume there's a "correct" baseline play.

 

You can say pace is set by the slowest, but it's just as easy to justify saying the pace is set by the fastest player on the team.

 

 

 

No, no no. I really like, "We didn't all agree to PL you slowpokes with our mighty -1 to +0 mobs"

Please, keep going with that. I want to hear more. 😉   (Being facetious, totally tongue in cheek, lol)

[Clave Dark 5]

1 hour ago, vibal said:

 The reward system for the majority of game content disproportionately incentivizes fast play.

Only once the system was rigged to let everyone min-max beyond any reasonable levels intended by the original devs, but your superior play is obviously a thing.

[vibal]

1 hour ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Only once the system was rigged to let everyone min-max beyond any reasonable levels intended by the original devs, but your superior play is obviously a thing.

 

The reward system was, as stated by Castle, designed to reward time vs. reward explicitly in place of risk vs. reward. That's not a change from the original dev design. Nor is it subjective. You will gain more in every measurable reward by running 5 12 minute Yin's in an hour as opposed to 1 +4 Yin where you comb every map. You may get less fun, but that is a subjective measure. My fun <> Your fun isn't a broken game design. I agree with the design principal still. The intent was to create an inclusive system as opposed to the EQ/WoW exclusive system. Paladin's were a blast in vanilla wow. They also had no role in the original end game. I love playing with people's weird, out there, builds. The current design lets me do that AND let's me complete content.

 

The builds I run are almost exclusively exactly the same as I ran on live. It took less time to get there and I'm much more likely to hit people at those same levels here as on live, but juiced up builds are not a new thing either. Again maybe not your fun -- mine <> yours. Give me a complex system and let me toy with and get everything I can out. That's fun! Maybe that sounds like spreadsheet McGaming to you, i dunno. That's fine too, we can still punch Countess Crey in the face.

 

Nor did I claim a superiority. I was making a hyperbolic point to highlight that this is a player issue. This is not a type* of player issue. I want to team with the Clave's and Solar's and I want everyone to have fun. I don't go fast to ruin your fun, I do it for my fun. If I clearly state that's what's going down when the invite goes out, why bark after we start is as valid a point as why go fast if we want to kill. Both happen and neither is good behavior in a co-op setting.

[GastlyGibus]

Figure I should chime in, because it's something I've noticed as well, and it really is starting to aggravate me. I don't like to run my own TF's anymore because of this, since it's an attitude I run into quite frequently, and I'm here to play a game, not babysit a bunch of hyperactive players who can't read or follow simple instructions.

 

The rare times I do run a TF, I very clearly advertise what it's about. I always advertise it as a kill-most, state the difficulty we're running at, and even put at the end of my little recruitment ad, in all caps, "THIS IS NOT A SPEEDRUN." When I have my whole team gathered and we're about to start, I reiterate for the whole team "THIS IS A KILL-MOST RUN. WE ARE FIGHTING THROUGH MOBS TO THE OBJECTIVE. THIS IS NOT A SPEEDRUN." Yet, even after that, there's always at least one player, sometimes more, who decides "fuck that" and runs off to the end and then impatiently says "where are you guys?" or tries to take on the boss by themselves and faceplants.

 

I'm very much of the same mind as Solarverse here. If you want to speedrun on your own teams? Go for it, my dude. It's your team, do whatever you like. I'm not going to sit here and demand that every player in the game must play according to my preferred playstyle. However, when it's my team, I have clearly and succinctly laid out the rules, and you still insist on doing it your way instead? That's a /kick for you. If you didn't want to fight through the mobs, then don't join the team. The issue isn't that people are speedrunning; the issue is that people are deliberately ignoring a team leader's request for a normal run and demanding that their way be done instead.

 

I'd be more than happy to join a TF with you whenever you're on, Solar.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by GastlyGibus

[macskull]

On 9/29/2023 at 9:36 AM, Clave Dark 5 said:

Only once the system was rigged to let everyone min-max beyond any reasonable levels intended by the original devs, but your superior play is obviously a thing.

Nah, it's human nature to find a way to get the results you want with the least amount of effort. The original intent of the developers is kind of irrelevant since players almost always end up doing things in a way the developers didn't foresee. Hami raids are a great example of this - both the old style and current raids were "solved" by players in ways the developers hadn't intended. Task force rewards are another example - originally with Issue 9 every TF gave a chance at a random drop out of the same pool so the rewards were the same regardless of whether you did a Katie Hannon that took 10 minutes or a Dr. Q that took 3 hours. Guess what option people chose? So the reward merit system was implemented, with a nominal formula of "x merits per minute" to encourage people to run a wider variety of content. It worked, but people quickly figured out what content was more "worth it" from a merits per minute standpoint.

 

TL;DR: As long as there are completion rewards for content players are going to game out ways of maximizing those rewards while minimizing time spent.

[Solarverse]

5 hours ago, GastlyGibus said:

Figure I should chime in, because it's something I've noticed as well, and it really is starting to aggravate me. I don't like to run my own TF's anymore because of this, since it's an attitude I run into quite frequently, and I'm here to play a game, not babysit a bunch of hyperactive players who can't read or follow simple instructions.

 

The rare times I do run a TF, I very clearly advertise what it's about. I always advertise it as a kill-most, state the difficulty we're running at, and even put at the end of my little recruitment ad, in all caps, "THIS IS NOT A SPEEDRUN." When I have my whole team gathered and we're about to start, I reiterate for the whole team "THIS IS A KILL-MOST RUN. WE ARE FIGHTING THROUGH MOBS TO THE OBJECTIVE. THIS IS NOT A SPEEDRUN." Yet, even after that, there's always at least one player, sometimes more, who decides "fuck that" and runs off to the end and then impatiently says "where are you guys?" or tries to take on the boss by themselves and faceplants.

 

I'm very much of the same mind as Solarverse here. If you want to speedrun on your own teams? Go for it, my dude. It's your team, do whatever you like. I'm not going to sit here and demand that every player in the game must play according to my preferred playstyle. However, when it's my team, I have clearly and succinctly laid out the rules, and you still insist on doing it your way instead? That's a /kick for you. If you didn't want to fight through the mobs, then don't join the team. The issue isn't that people are speedrunning; the issue is that people are deliberately ignoring a team leader's request for a normal run and demanding that their way be done instead.

 

I'd be more than happy to join a TF with you whenever you're on, Solar.

 

 

 

Sent you a global. Same goes for you. Always looking for like-minded players to run with.

[Solarverse]

23 minutes ago, macskull said:

Nah, it's human nature to find a way to get the results you want with the least amount of effort. The original intent of the developers is kind of irrelevant since players almost always end up doing things in a way the developers didn't foresee. Hami raids are a great example of this - both the old style and current raids were "solved" by players in ways the developers hadn't intended. Task force rewards are another example - originally with Issue 9 every TF gave a chance at a random drop out of the same pool so the rewards were the same regardless of whether you did a Katie Hannon that took 10 minutes or a Dr. Q that took 3 hours. Guess what option people chose? So the reward merit system was implemented, with a nominal formula of "x merits per minute" to encourage people to run a wider variety of content. It worked, but people quickly figured out what content was more "worth it" from a merits per minute standpoint.

 

TL;DR: As long as there are completion rewards for content players are going to game out ways of maximizing those rewards while minimizing time spent.

 

If the Devs were concerned with the current system (big if) then it would seem the obvious logical choice is to tie those to NPCs killed rather than length of Task Force. A system that calculates how many NPCs the team wiped out in the Task Force and hands out Merits accordingly?

[tidge]

3 hours ago, Solarverse said:

 

If the Devs were concerned with the current system (big if) then it would seem the obvious logical choice is to tie those to NPCs killed rather than length of Task Force. A system that calculates how many NPCs the team wiped out in the Task Force and hands out Merits accordingly?

 

A rando observation.

 

Gathering Prismatic Aether Particles favor speedy conclusion to as many missions as possible in as short a period as possible; (Recipe) Drops favor as many defeats as possible... so these two types of rewards. It does seem like the current devs are implementing something.

 

I do like the TFs that offer opportunities to defeat more "named" NPCs, particularly those that lead to badges(*1)... and I like when it is possible to collect extra rewards "inside" a TF/SF.

 

Complete aside: (*1) I wish that more "villains" in blue side missions offered progress on Villain Disruptor; I'm always peeved when I have to keep repeating the PI Bank/PD station to complete that one. I'm less bothered by Hero Slayer because of the ease at picking up Bloody Hands... although it would make some sense for those badges be similarly easier for Villains to collect organically.

[Clave Dark 5]

7 hours ago, macskull said:

Nah, it's human nature to find a way to get the results you want with the least amount of effort.

 

Not true; if it were, we'd all be playing that way and we obviously don't.  It's just greed, which is something only some people choose to indulge in.  I mean securities fraud is also a thing humanity does, but we have rules to try and stop and punish that right?  Now, that's something that actively steals from others, which isn't the same as what happens in this game (ToT leechers and people who speed-run after you said "no speedrunning" aside ha ha), but the sense of self-entitlement "I want it now" is the same, not a "everybody else is doing it" situation.

 

The original intent of the developers is kind of irrelevant since players almost always end up doing things in a way the developers didn't foresee.

 

That's called "gaming the system" and is something they often try and balance out of the game, as you said about them readjusting rewards.  Those original devs weren't just scolds for scolding's sake, they understood and knew that such gaming the system would be unhealthy for the game, that's why they worked to tamp it down a lot back in the day.  I don't see that as having changed: people will get bored of easy wealth sooner and leave, and meanwhile there are people new to the game with a shiny new farmed-50 who I have to explain to how to "set a mission" for the whole team to see and interact with (good thing they had an Ouro at least!).

 

TL;DR: As long as there are completion rewards for content players are going to game out ways of maximizing those rewards while minimizing time spent.

 

TLDR: And there's reasons we shouldn't be letting it get out of hand.

 

[WumpusRat]

5 hours ago, tidge said:

Complete aside: (*1) I wish that more "villains" in blue side missions offered progress on Villain Disruptor; I'm always peeved when I have to keep repeating the PI Bank/PD station to complete that one. I'm less bothered by Hero Slayer because of the ease at picking up Bloody Hands... although it would make some sense for those badges be similarly easier for Villains to collect organically.

If you do Provost Marchand's "A New War" arc, the first couple missions throw 10 named villains at you. Makes it super easy to get Villain Disruptor. 

[golstat2003]

On 9/27/2023 at 8:09 PM, macskull said:

Kick and move on.

 

This. Life's too short to put up with nonsense.

[UltraAlt]

On 9/30/2023 at 10:14 AM, GastlyGibus said:

However, when it's my team, I have clearly and succinctly laid out the rules, and you still insist on doing it your way instead? That's a /kick for you.

 

And that's why you should lead a task force.

You spent the time recruiting. It's your task force. You got the boot.

If they don't want to be lead by the leader, give them the swift kick.

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by UltraAlt

[Solarverse]

14 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

 

This. Life's too short to put up with nonsense.

 

Holy shit we agree on something! There is hope for mankind yet!  😄

[Solarverse]

13 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

And that's why to lead a task force.

You spent the time recruiting. It's your task force. You got the boot.

If they don't want to be lead by the leader, give them the swift kick.

 

 

 

 

God bless I love that song!

[fitzsimmons]

On 9/27/2023 at 2:36 PM, DoctorDitko said:

The most fun I had on a TF was an ITF I led, advertised as "World's Slowest ITF."

 

Wound up with a mellow, quippy crew, some of whom even became friends.

 

I'd say your runner was a rude, stubborn jerk!

But the whole damn world seems to be suffering from a plague of rude, stubborn jerks! 

I ran a strugglebus ITF before.  I regretted it.

[momentarygrace]

On 10/2/2023 at 8:15 AM, UltraAlt said:

 

And that's why you should lead a task force.

You spent the time recruiting. It's your task force. You got the boot.

If they don't want to be lead by the leader, give them the swift kick.