Officially Unofficial Weekly Discussion #49: In-game Currencies

[SeraphimKensai]

Welcome back again. After last week's topic I figure this one is quite a bit tamer by comparison. We transition to discussing the merit of in-game currencies, their exchange rates if convertible, and their necessity.

 

Influence, infamy, information - basic currency used to buy things from the AE or most vendors.

Prestige - a retired currency once used to fund super base development and upkeep.

Incarnate Shards - used for your incarnate Alpha slot.

Incarnate Threads - used for all incarnate slots.

Empyrean Merits - converting to threads, buying rare/very rare incarnate salvage, previously for converting to reward merits

Reward Merits - used for buying converters, boosters, catalysts, ATOs, Winter IOs, IO recipes, etc.

Prismatic Aether - converting to INF via AH, or buying permanent prestige costumes.

 

How do you feel about the current state of in-game currencies? Did I miss any? What do you think about the number of different currencies players need to accumulate? Does this work to alienate players into the haves and then have nots? Or force you to play content you might not otherwise engage in?

 

Personally I think incarnate shards and the salvage used for Alpha should just be removed and the drop rate of threads and that offshoot of incarnate salvage be increased to compensate. This reduce the complexity of the incarnate system and possibly make it more approachable. I also miss being able to convert emp merits to reward merits.

 

I'm on the fence about prismatic aethers. I think the existing system is essentially a gate to extend a players time in unlocking these prestige costumes, which I think can alienate players especially newer players that might not be able to afford to drop 2 billion inf on prismatic aethers at the AE in, which slows them down especially from a role playing perspective if they have a character concept that requires a specific prestige costume. The drop rate in non incarnate/non hard mode content also could be perceived to penalize players who choose not to play at that difficultly.

 

Personally though I think that based on an risk vs reward model, the game would be better served using a universal modifier that scales based on difficulty for inf, recipe, salvage, incarnate threads/salvage, reward merit, and prismatic aether drop rate.

 

How do you all feel about the myriad of in-game currencies and means of obtaining them?

 

As always thanks.

 

[High_Beam]

you missed Astral Merits even though they have changed and can essentially only be used for thread conversions they are still dropping occasionally

[lemming]

Current state of influence generation is fine at level 50.   Prior to level 50, even if you don't run 2xp, the inf gain is pretty low, but running the market on cheap to build items can be more profitable.  It's tough to get that first character established, but once you have, influence no longer is that big of a deal to generate.  If you constantly get chars up to 50, fully equip them, and then move on before having them generate, you'll probably feel short on cash.

I certainly have way more inf stocked up than I ever did on live.

 

Reward Merits: I think some activities reward a bit too many, but for the most part there are a lot that are under valued.

 

Incarnate Shards:  Gotten rid of and any place that rewards Shard salvage should be changed to a thread based.

 

Emp Merits:  I prefer the non-exchange to reward rather than a couple of the other proposals.   I do enough alts that I can always use a few more.  I also didn't do much converting, so I didn't rely on it, probably would have been more bent out of shape otherwise.

 

Prismatics:  I think a lot of the costumes are overpriced.   I'd put the top price maybe at 250, and stuff like the mini at 100.   Frankly this was one of the reasons I trimmed a lot of my alts since I was going OCD on PA earning over Halloween last year.  I do agree there should be a different way to earn them, if just for non-50s to be able to get PAs from WST.

 

 

[lemming]

10 minutes ago, High_Beam said:

you missed Astral Merits even though they have changed and can essentially only be used for thread conversions they are still dropping occasionally

They're sorta proto-Emp Merits, so I just fold them into the same category.  And they drop a lot in iTrials

[Neiska]

I think if you include crafting your own enhancements or selling rare salvage at 400k a pop it evens out though. Selling a single one can pay for pretty much all normal things you need to mid 20’s. You may not have all the uniques and such but you won’t be helpless either. 
 

Just saying I think there’s more sides to it than pure inf gain when considering gearing a character.

[Shenanigunner]

There are too damned many currencies/markets/economies, and I don't think most of them have added anything to the game.

[srmalloy]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Incarnate Shards - used for your incarnate Alpha slot.

Incarnate Threads - used for all incarnate slots.

Incarnate Threads were originally a subscription-only drop. As shards were not usable for crafting Incarnate boosts for anything but the Alpha slot, this made an effective gatekeeper for incarnate abilities — the devs didn't have to block off earning incarnate XP after the Alpha slot was unlocked, as nonsubscribers wouldn't be able to craft anything to go in them. Shards existed to give the freeps a taste of the incarnate system to encourage them to subscribe.

[High_Beam]

9 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

Shards existed to give the freeps a taste of the incarnate system to encourage them to subscribe.

But Shards have electrolytes, which plant doms crave.

[ZekeStenzland]

I’m fairly okay with the currencies as they are now. 
 

I wouldn’t shed a tear if the swapped the Incarnate Shard items for equivalent Thread items. It seems like I can unlock an alpha using threads way easier and cheaper than by using shards. 
 

I’m okay with prismatics as is. Be nice if they were easier to get in game — especially for the under 50 crowd. Or if the costumes were cheaper. Also be nice if you could preview them in game too.

[shortguy on indom]

Hey all....here's my 2 inf.

 

Hero Merits is another.  Think maybe was a way to earn them directly at one time?

 

Used to like converting:   Reward to Hero to Emps to Hero to Reward

 

When I came back to the game after a couple years I can no longer convert my Emps to Hero.

 

I do not use the super duper inspirations, and /ah is a drag.....so my Emps are kinda useless these days.

 

Why was this changed?  Was it being abused or hacked some way?

[Spaghetti Betty]

42 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

Hey all....here's my 2 inf.

 

Hero Merits is another.  Think maybe was a way to earn them directly at one time?

 

Used to like converting:   Reward to Hero to Emps to Hero to Reward

 

When I came back to the game after a couple years I can no longer convert my Emps to Hero.

 

I do not use the super duper inspirations, and /ah is a drag.....so my Emps are kinda useless these days.

 

Why was this changed?  Was it being abused or hacked some way?

It was shown that in theory one could multibox farm several 50s just for the Emps and convert them into Reward Merits and directly into inf. Then delete the farmed 50s and start the process over. So it was nixed. This sparked about a 30-page debate, IIRC.

[SeraphimKensai]

42 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

Why was this changed?  Was it being abused or hacked some way?

It was changed as farmers would farm merits with multiple accounts and delete) remake secondary characters that had hit the max level of emp merit drops. They then converted them and sold on AH. The HC staff decided to remove that functionality as it produced more influence than they wanted citing farming, income inequity, and inflation.

 

A lot of at the time thought it was overkill.

[Spaghetti Betty]

In current CoH, the only real redundant currencies are Astral Merits and Shards. They were absolutely a product of their time but don't find real use nowadays. Does that mean they should go? I dunno! Maybe a recycling of some sort could be looked at.

 

I think PAPs work as their value is 100% subjective. I know a lot of players that just simply don't care for the vanity costumes and others that treat them as gold (I have a friend that will literally farm Mini mode for every toon and has done so successfully). So I think they're working out. Could the cost of some of the rewards be dropped a bit? Definitely. But the price of them has already deflated massively since their inception and seems to be doing so again as October passes. It's hard to say.

 

I wheel and deal Candy Canes! Remember to say hi for a free one!

Edited October 13, 2023 by Spaghetti Betty

[WumpusRat]

6 hours ago, lemming said:

 

Reward Merits: I think some activities reward a bit too many, but for the most part there are a lot that are under valued.

 

Which ones in particular? Most of the merit rewards seem pretty average. The only one I can think of as "a lot" is the mothership raid, but I don't tend to do those.

Though there are a couple of story arcs that I think don't reward enough. 

One that springs to mind is Mr. Bocor in Port Oakes, who gives you a 4-mission arc (3 kill-alls and a hunt) and gives you a paltry 2 merits for it.

[Greycat]

I have to admit I don't tend to think of Aethers as a currency but as salvage. Not sure why my head binned them that way.

 

Forgotten but still in game: Vanguard merits. There's just not much use for them other than a recurring Vanguard HVAS and converting to Reward Merits. (Does *anyone* keep picking up the psi shield/psi bomb? Or Nectembo's Curse Breaker after the RWZ arcs and / or the Alpha unlock arc?)

 

Redundant: Shards. Just get rid of them. I have characters with thousands of them. I do the free conversion when I think of it. Then gain more that I'll never use. I rarely craft an Alpha with them, other than the times I have way too many just sitting and say "what the heck" and craft some alpha I'll never use. Drop them and everything related and just go with threads, which drop fast enough to get you through T4 on everything anyway.

 

3 hours ago, WumpusRat said:

 

Which ones in particular? Most of the merit rewards seem pretty average. The only one I can think of as "a lot" is the mothership raid, but I don't tend to do those.

 

 

I don't think the MSRs give "a lot," really. You'll get more bang for the buck - or minute - by running Hami raids. Mothership raids are so variable - you can get from (typically) 800-1200 V-merits typically, with some raids giving more (I've seen as high as 1600, rumor of 2000 or so, but not frequently) and they convert at 30-1 to Reward merits. So, for half an hour-ish, 36-40 reward merits for constant activity. A hami, which takes less time - Everlasting runs two, three times a day - gives 80 on the first run, 40 on subsequent, and a typical double raid is done in about half an hour, depending on how long it takes for hami to spawn. 80-120 merits for half an hour. (160 if you manage to swap characters and get the 80 twice. If you have six fifties, 480 merits a day over the three raids.) About the only way you match that on an MSR is joining Trix's "smushening" on Everlasting - once a year 12 hours (or more) straight of just MSR after MSR.

 

And yes, I'm glad Prestige is gone. Wish the listings for it would be gone and the SG interface would be redone so it could be completely banished... it did nothing but restrict creativity (and even just plain utility) when it was around.

[Snarky]

We definitely need another in game currency.  Hopefully miserly given out to regular players and lavished on the 1% who can/will grind +7 ultra hard mode.  Then use it to buy the coolest new stuff in the game.  Oh, and make sure you can AH it.   Yeah.  Perfect

[srmalloy]

7 hours ago, Greycat said:

Redundant: Shards. Just get rid of them. I have characters with thousands of them. I do the free conversion when I think of it. Then gain more that I'll never use.

While I agree that they are annoying to have to remember to convert to threads once you've got your T4 Alpha, remember that they don't exist in isolation; you would need to come up with a disposition for the Notice of the Well reward for a WTF as well. Simply upscaling the shard reward — it takes five times as many threads as shards to make a common component, so changing shard drops to threads, making them five times as likely (for a single thread), then merging that drop chance into the existing thread drop chance would give a single base drop. Notices, though, are more complex. For crafting an incarnate boost, they're the equivalent of a rare component, but just giving a choice of rare component for a WTF may be giving too much, since the rare can be used to craft boosts for the other slots, making the T3 boosts easier to get, but changing the Notice to the same random-tier component pick that the incarnate trials have could be biased the other way; there will be a need to examine the balance of rewards.

[Yomo Kimyata]

It’s interesting to me, watching how new currencies have been developed and adjusted over the years in this game.  To me it seems like a cycle of developing a reward; people learn to minmax the reward; powers that be wring their hands at how they didn’t foresee this; some governance is put in place which upsets both the minmaxxers and the main population; new reward is developed as appeasement.

 

At this point, it’s an interesting mishmosh of currencies, and it’s always an interesting thought experiment about  the “best” way to get something I want.  I’d be fine if every currency were to be made exchangeable into any other, but at usurious rates of course.  If you don’t use something like shards, that’s up to you!  But I’m not going to support a better exchange rate for mana than just falls from the sky.

 

Personally, I’d love to have prestige back as an inf burner, but maybe that’s just me.  I’d love to have more things character locked, but I also realize that some people get their joy from making instacharacters and if they can afford to equip them, have at it!

[SeraphimKensai]

59 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Personally, I’d love to have prestige back as an inf burner, but maybe that’s just me.

I don't think that's the best idea myself as it would likely hamper the ability of the base building community if they needed prestige to develop bases again. Someone like @Dacycould probably provide more input regarding the needs of the base building community.

 

While I do think that players can create an astronomical sum of influence given your 100 million influence give away, I'd wager there's significantly more players that don't put the effort in to generating influence than those that do.

[Yomo Kimyata]

28 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I don't think that's the best idea myself as it would likely hamper the ability of the base building community if they needed prestige to develop bases again. Someone like @Dacycould probably provide more input regarding the needs of the base building community.

 

While I do think that players can create an astronomical sum of influence given your 100 million influence give away, I'd wager there's significantly more players that don't put the effort in to generating influence than those that do.

 

Fair enough on the base building part -- I just want prestige as a pure inf burning mechanism (and maybe one to keep score by...).  Leave all the base stuff free.  Short of deleting items or characters, there aren't a lot of real inf destroying activities.  Even the /AH (which I use even instead of emailing myself stuff) only takes 10%!

 

As to your second part, that's the developer conundrum.  Even a small number of minmaxxers (and I am specifically not using the term exploit here) who know what they are doing and more importantly care about it or enjoy it have a outsized impact on the economy.  And there are lots and lots of people who don't *want* to do this extraneous stuff to be able to afford the items that they do want.  It's a sticky wicket to be sure.  That's why I do my giveaway -- it's a lot of inf for someone who just wants to get through the game, but it's not enough inf to bring out the minmaxxers to try to bankrupt me!

[lemming]

14 hours ago, WumpusRat said:

Which ones in particular? Most of the merit rewards seem pretty average. The only one I can think of as "a lot" is the mothership raid, but I don't tend to do those.

Though there are a couple of story arcs that I think don't reward enough. 

One that springs to mind is Mr. Bocor in Port Oakes, who gives you a 4-mission arc (3 kill-alls and a hunt) and gives you a paltry 2 merits for it.

 

Oh, not much comes to mind, like the Arcs that you finish and get rewards and sometimes I'll think "Huh, that seemed low" like Bocor.   Not enough to document currently.  I think there are a few that seem more than expected, but again haven't documented.

 

MSR raids give a bit less than they used to and frankly, I find them incredibly boring.  I tend to run a character thru them once in order to easily get the vanguard sack and the exploration badge. 

 

Hamis are profitable for little effort for the average player, but you do need people who are putting in effort for them to be so.

[lemming]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Personally, I’d love to have prestige back as an inf burner, but maybe that’s just me.  I’d love to have more things character locked, but I also realize that some people get their joy from making instacharacters and if they can afford to equip them, have at it!

Not sure how to work them into influence burn, but some use for prestige would be interesting.

I think a prestige building system that would just generate via play and decay over time and just show how active a SG is.

1 prestige per time unit of logged in and prestige awarded per enemy defeated, mission completed.  I'd probably not count time when on a TF, Ouro Arc, sitting in base, or AE.   However, the final reward from TF & Flashbacks would count more. (Just to keep people from having a bunch of placeholder NPCs counting more than I feel they should, ymmv)   AE completion should probably still count for something.

Worth implementing? probably not.

[lemming]

Oh, and on the call back to when Emp Merits no longer could be converted.

During that discussion, one of the GMs mentioned that the asteroid map in AE generated some high percentage of all influence that players generated. (80%?) I'm not sure if that included the Emp->reward->influence chain.

[Yomo Kimyata]

One other niggle:  I kind of wish you could convert merits INTO vanguard merits.  I know that they drop like water when you are doing MSR, but I rarely do those, and when I'm doing Mender Ramiel's arc I rarely have 50 Vmerits and so get stymied by $%#%$ Vanguard Colonels and can't afford a Curse Breaker.

[Luminara]

I remember when influence was the only currency, and the consequences of that.  I also remember my frustration when playing other MMORPGs and experiencing currency obsolescence (old currency not being usable in new content) every 10-12 weeks.  I believe we have a reasonably good balance between the two, now.  We do have quite the pile of currencies, but most of them are fungible in one way or another, and that shifts the emphasis away from playing a specific way, or in specific content, or at a specific level, and back to playing the game.  So whatever minor quibbles we might raise about the various currencies, shards being an oft-cited example, we have a good thing going and I have no serious complaints.