Focused Feedback: Arsenal Control

[WindDemon21]

On 1/30/2024 at 1:41 AM, ShinMagmus said:

One of the first good suggestions I've seen in a while here besides the Immob fight that we can't win.  Just as an aside, VG does cause enemies who aren't initially Held to run from it: and a big reason the power works is because Earth Control can both put down Quicksand preemptively to slow enemies in its patches like VG and Earthquake, AND it can just Stone Cages to traditionally lock enemies in the area and make them get subjected to the patches.

 

Quicksand is a "weaker" power than most CCs but in exchange it has half the CD of a power like Ice Slick or Liquid Nitrogen: which means you have the freedom to use it every single fight and synergize with patches that enemies can run out of.  For Arsenal Control to work: Sleep Grenade needs to retain movement slowing effects and be at max a 45s CD so we can use it like a ghetto Quicksand to slow enemies in the other patches.

 

Reminder that this -50% in Sleep Grenade is not enough total slow against most enemies to get them to the run speed floor: so Controllers are still going to be locked into picking secondaries with another strong AoE slow to make the set be tolerable.

Exactly. the power should really just have a full-strong slow in it, but there is also the problem, that with it being both sleep, and "attack-proc power" You're not going to really have any leftover slotting to slot it for slow which it would really need even at max slow debuff akin to powers like lingering radiation, quicksand, shiver, etc. So it would really make sense that it at least has that much heftier slow speed, but again, we NEED to be able to slow liquid nitrogen/ice slick/ice patch for slow/kd IO's and sets. It's still kinda insane that you can't slot those in these powers. Slow slotting at least would help alleviate the need for more slow in sleep grenade, but should really still be there at a big value since the set has no aoe immobilize. It should be the king of it besides ice control.

 

Edit: TBH though, if the devs are dead set on the set not having an aoe immobilze, I still feel like just a stealth power is a really poor addition to the set where a more useful power should be. IF not aoe immobilize, Like I said the power should have at least a big slow field similar to quicksand, and it wouldn't be out of theme or context to have it somehow pull-in as well, ie tractor beam slow field etc.

Edited February 1 by WindDemon21

[WindDemon21]

34 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

I also prefer mobs that are heavily debuffed, or confused, to be able to move (slowly). Moving mobs aren't attacking and confused mobs tend to collapse tighter. The moment you immob them they default to ranged attacks.

Until the mobs start knocking EACHOTHER back. Which is why almost more-so than stun, sets with aoe confuse REALLY need the aoe immobilize, or at least it's -kb it offers. Why also at least on top of the set having more slow, an actual slow field instead of the pointless stealth power, they really should add that -kd effect that aoe immobilizes do to the confuse cannister. That would alleviate a LOT of issues, then you're mostly just dealing with the annoyance of wandering mobs from the stun.

[Sovera]

It feels a bit trollish not to say which powers cause 'wet'. Not just because we are being sent on a busywork errand like a kid, but after someone has had the patience to go one power at a time from all paired sets AND pools AND epic pools then that person will simply post the list of all powers that do it.

 

Something not needed and that feels borderline malicious no matter the spin given to it.

 

And THEN until HC eventually dies (may it live forever) we will have a steady trickle of people in the forums for the next decade 'Hey, I picked Arsenal. It says it works on wet mobs. What are wet mobs?' and someone with a lot of patience (or not when I see people asking stuff in these forums with hundreds of views and zero answers) will go 'Yeah... the devs did not specify it, but it's X, Y, and Z who do that'.

[ScarySai]

Adding my voice to the hat of "Just give people a list already."

 

It really doesn't benefit anyone to make this a treasure hunt, you know what powers have it, just tell your testers.

 

Maybe in some weird way this is seen as a method to "root out people who don't test", but this would be an asinine way to go about it.

 

Besides the whole wet thing, nothing else worth reporting on. The root -works- from the ones I've tested, though I'd debate the actual usefulness of it's application. This set is still fighting with Elec control for the position of "The worst set in the entire game".

Edited February 1 by ScarySai

[Dispari]

3 minutes ago, Sovera said:

It feels a bit trollish not to say which powers cause 'wet'. Not just because we are being sent on a busywork errand like a kid, but after someone has had the patience to go one power at a time from all paired sets AND pools AND epic pools then that person will simply post the list of all powers that do it.

 

Something not needed and that feels borderline malicious no matter the spin given to it.

 

Also is this the only set that triggers an effect based on a condition that the set itself cannot create? Doms/Controllers don't even have good access to secondaries that have this effect. They basically have to rely on a completely random other teammate to just happen to have this effect. I wouldn't even call it a bonus because of how rare these powers are.
 

Just now, ScarySai said:

Adding my voice to the hat of "Just give people a list already."

No. I disagree. Just remove the wet effect. Abandon it entirely. Just make the power immobilize or don't. Why go through these extra steps that rely on random teammates and completely external powers to the set? This wild goose chase is ridiculous.

[ScarySai]

3 minutes ago, Dispari said:

No. I disagree. Just remove the wet effect. Abandon it entirely. Just make the power immobilize or don't

 

You know what? Agreed. This feels incredibly over-engineered.

 

At this point, delay the set and rethink how it's to be structured. This is a disaster.

Edited February 1 by ScarySai

[WindDemon21]

I'm telling you. TRACTOR BEAM instead of the pointless stealth power. Location slow field slottable for slows and does mag 2 pull-in, and add -kb effect to the confuse cannister. All problems solved.

[Dispari]

A reliable immobilize would also have a -KB effect. And pair well with obvious pairings to the set like Buckshot, Ignite, Caltrops, and Tripe Mine that normally cause scatter. Not that your idea isn't cool, but they did say we aren't getting any significant changes to the set at this point. They did open the door that Liquid Nitrogen could just have an immobilize in it though.

[PeregrineFalcon]

16 minutes ago, Sovera said:

It feels a bit trollish not to say which powers cause 'wet'.

Is it possible that most of the developers are busy at their day jobs right now? And that the ones who aren't are busy trying to get the servers working again?

 

Also, is it possible that the developers haven't finished adding in the wet flags to all of the powers yet? Beta server and all that.

 

6 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

At this point, delay the set and rethink how it's to be structured. This is a disaster.

You know that isn't going to happen. Remember how we all complained when they nerfed Rune of Protection and the Council of Thirteen's reaction was to nerf it even more? Remember how we asked them not to add a combo system to Energy Melee? Remember how they deleted posts that were against it and then the combo system went live anyway?

 

Keep giving that "Focused Feedback" though, maybe this time it'll make a difference. 😁

[Booper]

10 minutes ago, Dispari said:

Also is this the only set that triggers an effect based on a condition that the set itself cannot create?

Oil Slick Arrow

 

As for a list in the patch notes, that will be provided when it goes Live. For now, we want to test the natural discovery of the mechanic. Most players don't read patch notes, so we want to look at how this mechanic will player with the greater audience. Obviously, we can't get that from beta testers with the answers already provided. Regardless, this bonus effect is just that, a bonus. It is a thematic bonus, where if you are wet and you touch something extremely cold, you will get stuck (folks who have seen Dumb and Dumber or a Christmas Story will be familiar with the scene where the person licks a frozen metal pole).

 

It's there for flavor, it's a minor buff if you can thematically match it with a set that provides "Wet" to a target, but it's minor enough that it does not invalidate the use of other sets with Arsenal Control.

 

1 hour ago, Rand0lk said:

Found another power that enables the "wet" condition: Water Spout from Leviathan Mastery,

Great work Rand0lk!

[WindDemon21]

Right, that -kb is one of the really big things though. I still think the tractor beam makes sense and would fit perfectly here though for the slow and pull in, but they need to at least add the -kb to the confuse cannister. The tractor beam was also in suggestion to them saying the set will definitely NOT get an aoe immobilize, so it was a proposed idea to take it's place. I still think just having a stealth power in a control set like this is just an entire waste of what the set really needs though via aoe immob or the tractor beam/slow field idea. Like there is already the stealth power, stealth IO, and super speed, we don't need a power taking up the very important power option here. I'm not even a fan of it in illusion, but that set is already so wonky with everything and obv won't change. Here there is a chance to actually help a new set out by removing that for a much more needed power. If the devs are dead-set on not having an aoe immobilize, then the slowfield/tractor beam makes the most sense for a replacment. (that and the super important -kb in the confuse cannister)

[ScarySai]

1 minute ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Remember how we all complained when they nerfed Rune of Protection and the Council of Thirteen's reaction was to nerf it even more?

That ended as a net buff, from how I see it. I want that recharge treatment on the other big pool CDs, honestly. 

 

Also, called it.

[Lockely]

2 minutes ago, Booper said:

Oil Slick Arrow

 

As for a list in the patch notes, that will be provided when it goes Live. For now, we want to test the natural discovery of the mechanic. Most players don't read patch notes, so we want to look at how this mechanic will player with the greater audience. Obviously, we can't get that from beta testers with the answers already provided. Regardless, this bonus effect is just that, a bonus. It is a thematic bonus, where if you are wet and you touch something extremely cold, you will get stuck (folks who have seen Dumb and Dumber or a Christmas Story will be familiar with the scene where the person licks a frozen metal pole).

 

It's there for flavor, it's a minor buff if you can thematically match it with a set that provides "Wet" to a target, but it's minor enough that it does not invalidate the use of other sets with Arsenal Control.

 

Great work Rand0lk!

 

I feel like you need an actual status condition added to the flying combat text called Wet for this natural 'discovery' to work. Players aren't going to see this happening organically, they're just going to be confused as to what that note in the power description means.

 

I don't hate the idea of the bonus itself, in fact I really love cross-class powers comboing off each other, those are neat interactions, but this implementation leaves a lot to be desired.

[Dispari]

11 minutes ago, Booper said:

Oil Slick Arrow

Is that the only example? Because there are several key differences. The obvious thematic pairing to the set (Archery) does have a way to trigger it, which is not the case for Traps or Arsenal Assault. Also, you can trigger it with more than one Incarnate power, and with damage procs from IOs. Hell you can even do it with one of the Origin powers!
 

Edited February 1 by Dispari

[ScarySai]

Oil slick arrow is also part of a support set, there's an expectation by default that there's another powerset that can potentially back up what it does, before we even factor in reactive radial, and all the fire/energy damage procs out there.

 

Oil slick arrow in Tac Arrow, which isn't a support set, for example, is able to ignite with electrified net arrow, no matter what. That's part of the reason it was given energy damage to begin with, it's a false comparison.

Edited February 1 by ScarySai

[Booper]

12 minutes ago, Lockely said:

 

I feel like you need an actual status condition added to the flying combat text called Wet for this natural 'discovery' to work. Players aren't going to see this happening organically, they're just going to be confused as to what that note in the power description means.

 

I don't hate the idea of the bonus itself, in fact I really love cross-class powers comboing off each other, those are neat interactions, but this implementation leaves a lot to be desired.

Great point, I will pass that along.

[Dispari]

So you're going to add floating text for a status effect to sets like Water Blast that don't even use said status effect and have no context for, so a different person on the team can know they're going to get an effect they probably don't even know about unless they carefully read the power description since they otherwise have no way to generate or use it?

 

...Okay.

[Shin Magmus]

1 minute ago, Dispari said:

So you're going to add floating text for a status effect to sets like Water Blast that don't even use said status effect and have no context for, so a different person on the team can know they're going to get an effect they probably don't even know about unless they carefully read the power description since they otherwise have no way to generate or use it?

 

...Okay.

Yes!  Because there's no winning now.  Either that is done so everyone can know which powers applies Wet, despite the issues you just pointed out, -or- we're back to square 1 with this bizarre effect that only works with Gun Control.  Remember, they're adding Wet but only for Gun Control which has 2 total powers that use Ice.  Wet has no synergy with any other Ice powerset.  Wet has no synergy with any Electrical powerset.  Wet has no logical reason to even exist.  It was added just for Gun Control, just so someone didn't have to convert a power people didn't like into Wide Area Web Grenade.

 

(Wet should boost Elec dmg and Cold dmg but reduce Fire dmg, and all sorts of other things.  That's how a real Wet status works in other RPGs with one.  This isn't the same, it's just... arbitrary.)

[Lockely]

4 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

Yes!  Because there's no winning now.  Either that is done so everyone can know which powers applies Wet, despite the issues you just pointed out, -or- we're back to square 1 with this bizarre effect that only works with Gun Control.  Remember, they're adding Wet but only for Gun Control which has 2 total powers that use Ice.  Wet has no synergy with any other Ice powerset.  Wet has no synergy with any Electrical powerset.  Wet has no logical reason to even exist.  It was added just for Gun Control, just so someone didn't have to convert a power people didn't like into Wide Area Web Grenade.

 

(Wet should boost Elec dmg and Cold dmg but reduce Fire dmg, and all sorts of other things.  That's how a real Wet status works in other RPGs with one.  This isn't the same, it's just... arbitrary.)

 

On the other hand, this does open up the door to those kinds of interactions if that's the way the team wants to go, encouraging diversity in team and power comps by giving classes combos that others in their parties can capitalize on. Doesn't hurt solo player but encourages teamwork, an initiative they're clearly focusing on- re: role diversity bonus.

[Sovera]

36 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Is it possible that most of the developers are busy at their day jobs right now? And that the ones who aren't are busy trying to get the servers working again?

 

No, they have been upfront about not divulging the powers and encouraging to find them. I don't mean this metaphorically. This is an actual thing, I'm not doing hyperbole.

[Indystruck]

I fucking LOVE the idea of power combos, I'm just not really sure this is the place to set it up.

 

Edit: Mostly because, well. Gesturing vaguely at response to it here, where it's not "cool! combos!" but "why isn't this just base kit" which, y'know, can't fault.

Edited February 1 by Indystruck

[Dispari]

Well, I've definitely offered enough feedback on the set, for what it's worth. It's clearly going to be a huge mess and I have no interest in playing or testing it now so... good luck everybody!

[Sovera]

2 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

I fucking LOVE the idea of power combos, I'm just not really sure this is the place to set it up.

 

Guild Wars 2 and combo fields is all over it. And it's a pretty important mechanic too, and now that Bopper has explained the reasoning why we were sent blind to it I can see the reasoning. A pity it could not have shipped with the patch notes though.

 

 

I just want to reaffirm I love the HC dev team and their thankless (sometimes literally) job that they do. It doesn't mean I agree with all they do or even like it, but I love my parents (may they live many years more) and don't like some of the stuff that they do or say, and it doesn't make me love them any less.

[Lockely]

1 minute ago, Sovera said:

 

Guild Wars 2 and combo fields is all over it. And it's a pretty important mechanic too, and now that Bopper has explained the reasoning why we were sent blind to it I can see the reasoning. A pity it could not have shipped with the patch notes though.

 

 

I just want to reaffirm I love the HC dev team and their thankless (sometimes literally) job that they do. It doesn't mean I agree with all they do or even like it, but I love my parents (may they live many years more) and don't like some of the stuff that they do or say, and it doesn't make me love them any less.

 

I've been thinking about GW2's Combo Fields the entire time during this discussion but I didn't know if it was appropriate to bring up here. The main difference is GW2 combo fields can *almost* universally be procc'd by your own kit, whereas that doesn't look to be the case with 'Wet'.

[Frosticus]

Could be neat. Opens up future possibilities of an ice attack, followed by a fire attack causing wet. Followed by an electrical attack getting bonus damage.

 

I dont hate the idea of improving potential synergies and cross set bonuses. Just depends what the devs are envisioning I suppose.