Focused Feedback: Arsenal Control

[ninja surprise]

Rolled an Ars/Ars  Dom this morning and played for about an hour.

 

My useless feedback is I'd prefer the set as throwing grenades instead of it being a multi-function rifle.

 

My preference feedback is I've played a lot of trick arrow and earth control and I'm really tired of targeted patches.  Even with binds and macros set to "powexec_location target", which doesn't always work.

The good thing about targeted patches is the ability to drop them around corners and without line of sight. The bad thing is that in chaotic battles, particularly in caves or tight buildings, it can be difficult to target a good spot on the ground.

 

I agree with the other suggestions about adding damage and re-ordering the powers to make low levels more bearable.

I'll watch the patch notes to see if it gets more control that works with containment and domination.

[Starhammer]

So a couple thoughts on the most recent iteration...

I still don't like Tranquilizer.  Thematically, this set desperately needs a net attack, and this is the easiest place to put that.

Tier 3 is ok for the Sleep grenade, but frankly the pseudopet reapplying sleep was one of the more interesting aspects to this power before, now it's just (yawn) another sleep attack.

The Tri-Cannon gun drone... I like the armor "wings" on the side. Those should definitely stay. I'm not opposed to the addition of the third set of barrels, but it's visually disconcerting to have two rotating one direction and the other rotating differently. It was fine when there were just two cannons to have them counter-rotating. It looked good and even made a certain sense for offsetting each other's momentum to maintain stability on a hovering device... but with the third cannon, it just makes the upper starboard cannon look wrong. Can we either get them all rotating the same direction, or take this a step further and turn it into a Quad-Cannon?

EDIT: As an unrelated side note: If you could align one of those rotating cannons into the end of a D.U.S.T. canon, then add that for AR/BR costume weapons, that would be awesome.

Edited January 28 by Starhammer

[twozerofoxtrot]

  

On 1/23/2024 at 10:51 PM, The Curator said:

  Tranquilizer Ranged, DMG(Toxic), Foe Sleep

• The Tranquilizing Dart is the perfect tool to sideline a single foe. It deals some toxic damage and can render the target unconscious, allowing you to focus on more important targets. The target remain asleep for some time, but will awaken if attacked. 

• The Sleep component of this power is Auto Hit against regular enemies, but a To Hit check is required to against AVs and players, as well as to make secondary effects apply.

• Fixed a bug where the power would not get enemies to sleep.

• Damage increased from scale 0.7576 to scale 1.0, recharge increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds, accuracy increased from 1.05x to 1.15x.

 

It still feels a little too weak, but on a controller with limited damage options, it might serve better as a rotation filler now. The bump in Accuracy will allow for more damage slotting in the early level, when slot economy is tight. 

  

On 1/23/2024 at 10:51 PM, The Curator said:

•   Sleep Grenade Ranged (Targeted AoE), DMG(Smash), Foe Sleep, -Recharge, -SPD
  • The Sleep Grenade can be launched at long range from beneath the barrel of your Assault Rifle. It releases a cloud of gas that will make enemies drowsy, slow, and fall asleep. 
  • Moved to Tier 3
  • Recharge lowered to 20s, no longer creates a pseudopet, sleep is only applied once on activation, sleep duration set to scale 5.5 (base 10.24s for controllers at lvl 50

 

Woof. Really glad it's T3 now but the lowered recharge really took the bite out of this as a proc bomb. And the lack of pulse has been highlighted.

Can't see myself taking it anymore, personally. The set still works fine without but it's a shame. Scarified on the altar of the balance gods....

 

On 1/23/2024 at 10:51 PM, The Curator said:

  Smoke Canister Ranged (Location AoE), Foe -Perception, -To Hit, Confuse

• The Smoke Canister is a powerful infiltration tool. Fling it at a target location and it will quickly cover the area in smoke. While engulfed within this smoke, most enemies will not be able to see past normal melee range, although some may have better perception. If the villains are attacked, they will become confused and might attack their allies.
• Radius increased from 20ft to 25ft.
• Recharge increased to 90s
• Power can now trigger Overpower (5% chance) and Domination (25% chance)

 

...So we can have something greater? Without Sleep Nade, this fills the gap nicely now. 

Haven't played with proc-slotting, but even with the higher recharge this still feels better than before. The increased radius covering a lot more surface area is a big improvement.



Appreciate the feedback being considered here, a lot.

 

[Shin Magmus]

Okay, here's my "Flowchart" for making this set work at the moment, just tested with some basic IOs because I didn't spend the time to enhance another lv50 build.  The preface is that I'm only interested in making Arsenal/Traps so that's all I'm testing.

 

Base Slows:

Sleep Grenade -50% for 15s / no -maxspeed tag

Liquid Nitrogen - 90% for 30.5s / yes -maxspeed / only if they remain in the area

Caltrops -80% for 45s / yes -maxspeed / only if they remain in the area

Total: -220% (292.6% at lv50 with Intuition Radial Alpha)

(Temporal Bomb also slows but it would not be used specifically for that, and not up every fight)

*This is enough slow to reliably floor the movespeed of most +3 enemies, without enhancing the values at all outside Alpha slot bonuses.*

 

So this means that Sleep Grenade in its current form is just a 1 acc / 5 proc bomb with a largely worthless Sleep effect that will not be active for more than 1s in any of my fights.  I open with either Flashbang or Smoke Canister and then instantly follow up with Sleep Grenade.  I prefer Flashbang as the opener and can probably get its recharge low enough to use every fight, making Smoke Canister a backup power to CC a 2nd group or do other stuff.  Another advantage of Flashbang is that I can stack it with Seeker Drones to semi-reliably inflict over Mag 4 Stun vs groups of Bosses.  The exact rotation is below:

 

Flashbang -> Sleep Grenade -> Liquid Nitrogen -> Caltrops -> *start attacking*.  When I start attacking on small teams or vs tanky enemies: the priority is to get Acid Mortar out as soon as enemies are slowed enough.  On full teams or vs easier enemies, it might not even be worth the cast time after that long opening chain.  If the set remains like this, my plan also remains like this.  There are 2 current issues for me playing an Arsenal/Traps.  The first issue is still the lack of AoE Immobs because my team can knock enemies out of my patches to undo my powers and free enemies from my slows... although I have a single target shitty Web Grenade to restrain a priority target.  The second issue is that I've committed to taking 2x 90s "openers" which combo with yet another "opener" so there's a 0% chance I bother taking, or slotting, the AoE Hold "Tear Gas".  I don't really like this gameplay loop overall since I can't get reliable Containment after the Stun(s) wears off, and I only see potential by pairing Arsenal Control with Traps or Trick Arrow because they have a ST Immob and another AoE slow, but at least the set is technically workable if you stack slows and your team cooperates.

[SnyPy]

6 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Sleep Grenade has enhanceable Slow.

Yeah, you are right. Still I think it could either use a stronger slow because I'm expecting people will just pair it with a secondary that also has slow as well to help with all patches the set is doing, or maybe adding -recharge would make it more useful in a team environment rather than just being another proc nuke.

Pulsing sleep was great for solo. but with that being removed, adding any other debuff effect would make it a more interesting power. I don't want Sleep Grenade to just be a proc bomb option.

 

When it comes to Gun Drone, while more damage is nice, It's a very boring pet even if it taunts. Maybe giving it something like Seeker Drones could be nice?

Edited January 28 by SnyPy

[Dispari]

7 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Sleep Grenade has enhanceable Slow.

A slow is not an immobilize no matter how much you enhance it (and who enhances for slow in something like that anyway?). It would do nothing to keep AVs from running all over the place, for instance. In fact, slows tend to make them panic and start running, which is a reason the set needs a proper immobilize. I really hope "the set has slow" isn't the reason we're not getting one. I would point out, slow-heavy sets like Ice, Earth, and Gravity still have one. Immobilize also goes beyond just having a way to keep enemies still. For Controllers it's an important tool to trigger Containment on all targets. It also often serves as one of the only reliable, quick-recharging sources of damage.

Anyway, I hopped on and played with the set for a bit.

1) Being able to take the hold right off the bat is good, and makes the set more immediately playable. Most sets start with a hold and it's the easiest way to get Containment going and give you an early solo option, so this is the right decision.

2) I took Sleep Grenade to test it, even though I would absolutely skip it in a real build. I can see what you're going with with the changes, and it's not necessarily a bad idea. The point is to have a quick-recharging sleep that you can put out at any time. It gives it a unique opportunity compared to other sets where you could theoretically drop sleep every 5 seconds, and always have a power to drop on extra spawns or just to open with. And with it being on-demand it's not conflicting with things like the confuse and whatnot, because it's a conscious decision.

 

Still, it just isn't a very good power, and from my experience and the feedback given above by other posters, most people would rather have the version that ticks if we ABSOLUTELY HAVE to have a sleep for SOME reason. I'm sure it was done so that domination/containment actually work on it, but here's the thing. This version of the power is actually worse than what it was, and it's not like it was good to begin with. And second, and I KNOW you're tired of hearing this, but you know what else would work in this slot that would work with domination/containment and still have a useful slow effect, and be overall 1000 times more useful to the build? An immobilize.

 

3) The increased radius on Smoke Canister increases its area from 1256 to 1962 which is a pretty good change, and will make it easier to hit full spawns if they're fully spread out. -perception in particular is a tentative debuff, since if anyone in the group sees you it will aggro them all, so I would say this is a good change.

4) Tri-Cannon is... All right it's not a lot, but I understand the limitations we're working with and I appreciate the effort put in here. 👍 Here's the boi we're working with:

 

I have some thoughts on Assault too but I'll post those in the appropriate thread.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

I tried out an arsenal control / arsenal assault / mu dominator on the test server for about an hour or two. 

The very early levels (1 - 6) went well with the hold taken at level 1 and the AOE sleep taken at level 2. Story arcs in AP and radio missions and a safeguard in KR were done with only set powers, vet attacks, and the free low level IOs from P2W. It was quite fun. 

 

After auto-leveling to 50 endgame IOs were put into this dominator and incarnates were taken. The two arsenal control powers not taken were the T1 single target sleep and the T8 AOE hold. A pylon test was done, an office mission in the AE was done (+0x8), and a PI radio mission featuring the newly revised CoT was completed (+4x8). 

Thoughts about each power taken follow, with some overall notes at the end ...

T2: cryo freeze ray - Quite like the animation. It's a single target hold and it does its job. 

 

T3: sleep grenade - This seems like it may be a clone of flash freeze from ice control. Mobs will sometimes strike the caster shortly before going to sleep. This skill was given the call of the sandman healing proc and that was it. Very useful when soloing, especially at low levels. Did not use it after turning 50. Could also be useful for over-aggro situations. 

 

T4: liquid nitrogen - It's almost as if bonfire and ice slick got merged and the result was a knockdown patch that slows mobs and does some damage. Very helpful, well worth taking. Good synergy with smoke canister (explained further down). 

 

T5: cloaking device - It provides stealth at the same level as superior invisibility, it seems, it offers a bit of defense, it accepts a LoTG increased global recharge IO, it provides a good amount of to hit buffing, and it provides resistance to "to hit" debuffs. Only needs its base slot to offer all of these benefits. Very worthwhile to take this.  

 

T6: smoke canister - This is a unique approach to confuse powers. Domination may or may not activate, it seems, and overpower has only a small chance of activating. But, since it applies a large perception debuff to mobs it can be useful even for bosses or others to whom the confuse doesn't apply. The "when damaged" condition for making mobs confused is fairly easy to meet, at least for most mobs, by first dropping smoke canister and then dropping liquid nitrogen into the same area. Mobs are less likely to leave the confusion area that way. 

 

T7: flash bang - Seems to function pretty much as expected. Worked just fine. 

 

T9: gun control - The pet is a bit of a mixed blessing. On the one hand, the gun drone is quite tough and it has a taunt, which can take aggro away from its summoner. On the other hand, because it stays at range when it taunts up to 4 mobs at once those mobs tend to swarm the gun drone. Thus, mobs taunted by gun drone can end up physically separated from the rest of their allies. That can make it take longer to defeat larger spawns. 

Overall notes ...

This set offers effective control options across the full level range, which is good. As a mid-game to endgame feature, the synergy between liquid nitrogen and smoke canister was quite helpful at reducing incoming damage. Not having an AOE immobilize is fine by me, as the set has strengths that can be built around. I will probably explore putting together one or more "arsenal control" builds to try out as a candidate for play on live. 

Will probably avoid pairing up arsenal control and arsenal assault on live, at least as they now stand; there are currently anti-synergies between those sets. 

 
 

Edited January 28 by EnjoyTheJourney

[Cyclone Jack]

I spent some time thinking on some of this.

 

Tranquilizer - Would it be possible to add -Spd, -Rech to this power?  Chilblain does this with Ice, and giving these debuffs to both Sleeps would fit thematically; they are both powers that would leave the enemies groggy and sluggish.  Also, it would give the power additional utility vs Bosses and the such.

 

Cryo-Freeze Ray - What if when you used Cryo-Freeze Ray on an enemy affected by Sleep (or even specifically Tranq), it Holds the target as usual, but also does a 10-15 second non-enhanceable AoE Immobilize; this Immobilize could do negligible or even no damage (thus no IO proccing), and could even be a smaller radius than normal AoE control powers, perhaps 10-15'.  Add some flavor text of, since the target is not moving, you're able to focus the beam more accurately at one location, allowing the effects to spread to nearby enemies.

 

This would solve a few issues.  First, it adds a minor Immobilize to the set, helping players who aren't as comfortable with Sleeps to contain enemies within Smoke Canister.  Second, it frees up some space for the L2 power.  Speaking of...

 

Sleep Grenade - I hate that this power is available at L2; that singular aspect is holding this power back, IMO.  As has been mentioned, the pseudo-pet is really what made this power shine, but that came with a long 40s Recharge that shouldn't be on powers available at that low of a level.  If this were a L6 or L8 power, then going back to the previous design would be perfect.  But the only power in the set that can be moved to a L2 power without significantly affecting the design of those powers is Cloaking Device.  With Stealth available at L4 from the Power Pools, maybe getting it at L2 wouldn't be too bad?

 

If Sleep Grenade and Cloaking Device are swapped, then Sleep Grenade can go back to the 40s pseudo-pet.  And if Cryo-Freeze Ray can combine with Tranquilizer, then the set gets a minor AoE early in the build.  Granted, I'm not a huge fan of a L2 Stealth, but honestly, that's infinitely better that a near-useless 6s Sleep Grenade.

[Captain Powerhouse]

2 hours ago, Dispari said:

A slow is not an immobilize

 

The reply was to the request of adding the ability to stack more -speed. Many dont seem to have noticed Sleep Grenade does that.

 

That said: I have mentioned this before but the power selection is not going to be changing. This set will not have any power replaced with an immob, nor have immob added to any of its powers. 

 

Adjustment of existing effects and how some things work may still see further adjustments, but the general power selection is not changing further.

[Captain Powerhouse]

4 hours ago, SnyPy said:

or maybe adding -recharge would make it more useful in a team environment rather than just being another proc nuke

 

Also does that (apply -recharge).

[Spectre7878]

Again I love the set been playing it a lot to get the feel for it. 
 

I would love the single target sleep changed to a single target net immobilize. It would be good to have for an anchor target. 
 

My biggest gripe is the endurance. I have lots of dominators, and I usually get their endurance under control before incarnates. 
 

for some reason, even after sets. I can’t get him not to use so much endurance. Not sure if it’s the toggles or just his powers. 
 

I don’t know know if anyone else is having this issues. Just would like the devs to looks at the endurance. 

[High_Beam]

Okay tested tranq on a ARS/ Controller.  It now sleeps them and the added damage helps but my previously stated feedback on the diminishment of the set with the alteration of Sleep Grenade to not pulsing stands.  Now its just another bland set.  Not saying I wont build one for thematic purposes . . . new is new.

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

That said: I have mentioned this before but the power selection is not going to be changing. This set will not have any power replaced with an immob, nor have immob added to any of its powers. 

 

Adjustment of existing effects and how some things work may still see further adjustments, but the general power selection is not changing further.

 

Can we get a lot more slow added to one or more powers in lieu of an immob?  While that won't solve the containment issue, at least it keeps things in place and out of our squishy faces longer.

Edited January 28 by Bionic_Flea

[Psyonico]

Just tried it out, Sleep Grenade is now a skippable power.  Put it back to a pulse or at least make the duration not scale by level.

[Dispari]

2 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

That said: I have mentioned this before but the power selection is not going to be changing. This set will not have any power replaced with an immob, nor have immob added to any of its powers. 

 

Adjustment of existing effects and how some things work may still see further adjustments, but the general power selection is not changing further.

 

Out of curiosity, why not?

[Frosticus]

Well I guess this is a case of being careful what you ask for. 

The previous build was better imo.

 

Sleep nade was a potentially excellent damage power with actual impact over the fight. It is a skip now.

I posted a video of the previous version working ok with dot (reactive) because of the pulse. Not so much anymore. 

My characters don't have the free time to spam a low damage, low control power.

 

Smoke at a glance looks improved, but for doms control either works or it doesn't. 25% chance is a 75% chance that you should have made sure to control that boss thru other means before using your melee attacks. 

 

I preferred the 45 sec recharge for the abity to get it out every spawn. 90 seconds makes it a lot less useful. Im no longer tossing smoke out left and right preventing adds. I need to hold the boss(es) anyway with this version and I can only use it on my main focus because of the much longer rech. 

60 sec base rech is the sweet spot for this version. 

 

 

 

[Chronocrator]

Why is it a 25% chance to Dominate? It's a hard control that requires a click, placement, and even to deal damage... why is it increasing the potency by 25% instead of 100%? It will either reliably hold bosses under Domination or it won't. It's definitely a step in the right direction to allow pseudopets to trigger the AT Inherents (this should be done across the board), but it's just an odd choice to make it unreliable. As it stands, it's a mild boost that might randomly help out, but the flaw here is that the playstyle you run with as a Dominator doesn't really give you that much breathing room. You'll need to use some other control power on the bosses since a few seconds of uninterrupted attacking from them can kill you. So if you lock them down and prevent them from attacking you some other way... why did we bother confusing them?

Edited January 28 by Chronocrator

[Shin Magmus]

2 hours ago, Dispari said:

 

Out of curiosity, why not?

We won't get anywhere with asking this sadly, since the answer is unflattering (pride).  I'll still voice my feedback about how the set would benefit from an AoE Immob, needed one, and how this is because Controllers are a solved equation with a clear optimal gameplay loop.  No matter how many more mediocre sets get added, not being able to Immob enemies just means that scatter is inevitable when using something like a typical 90s AoE Stun.  Even if enemies scatter slowly, this is mathematically less effective than if they couldn't scatter at all: not *just* for you, but for everyone else on your team.  Sets like Arsenal Control are simply going to compare unfavorably to the good Control sets, and people who care about efficiency are going to roll another Fire Control character instead.  This set will languish in unpopularity and that is its fate.  This was avoidable... but not anymore.

 

One more thing to the pile of "yeah it works I guess but there's no incentive to play it."

[Videra]

15 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

We won't get anywhere with asking this sadly, since the answer is unflattering (pride).  I'll still voice my feedback about how the set would benefit from an AoE Immob, needed one, and how this is because Controllers are a solved equation with a clear optimal gameplay loop.  No matter how many more mediocre sets get added, not being able to Immob enemies just means that scatter is inevitable when using something like a typical 90s AoE Stun.  Even if enemies scatter slowly, this is mathematically less effective than if they couldn't scatter at all: not *just* for you, but for everyone else on your team.  Sets like Arsenal Control are simply going to compare unfavorably to the good Control sets, and people who care about efficiency are going to roll another Fire Control character instead.  This set will languish in unpopularity and that is its fate.  This was avoidable... but not anymore.

 

One more thing to the pile of "yeah it works I guess but there's no incentive to play it."

 

It's unfortunate, but this is the truth. Arsenal Control, in its current state, is simply bad. And it cannot be fixed without fundamental alterations. Which means that if a change to power selection isn't feasible at this stage, it will continue to simply not be particularly useful or even decent. Neither Dominator nor Controller likes this set - there is no reason to use it as it has no marquise power. Which is unfortunate, because I'm someone for whom this set could have been an easy win were it only on any level good.

Edited January 28 by Videra

[Shin Magmus]

14 minutes ago, Videra said:

 

It's unfortunate, but this is the truth. Arsenal Control, in its current state, is simply bad. And it cannot be fixed without fundamental alterations.

Arsenal Control is worse than "simply bad".  Arsenal Control is comparatively worse than the most similar Control Sets like Ice Control: better slow stacking, same Ice Slick, better Confuse power in Arctic Air, has an AoE Immob, wins in every single way except not having a Stun (but it doesn't need it)... but being comparatively worse would be okay if it had any unique niche or unique strength.  Arsenal Control is comparatively worse AND also has no niche: pointless set.

 

Earth - Best overall CC and best simultaneous CC across multiple areas

Ice - Better Arsenal Control with best movement slows and superbest recharge slows

Mind - Sole good sleep-stacking Control set in the game, useful on Doms soloing multiple AVs, also has repositioning

Fire - Fundamentally better DPA on most powers than most sets with a strong damage aura, easy to play

Plant - Best AoE Confuse and strongest pet/proc-based DPS of all Control sets

Dark - 2nd strngest pet/proc-based DPS but has excellent burst proc dmg and stacks the most tohit debuffs, making it very safe

Gravity - Best repositioning of any Control set with Wormhole and Singularity, giving it a truly unique niche

Elec Control - Only pulsing Sleep in the game and the best sapping set in the game... like... by FAR

Symphony - Seems pointless at first but is the best purely ranged overall attacking Control set for both Controllers and Dominators, fake blaster

Arsenal - No niche, feel free to pretend you can put an answer here

Edited January 28 by ShinMagmus

[warlyx]

27 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

We won't get anywhere with asking this sadly, since the answer is unflattering (pride).  I'll still voice my feedback about how the set would benefit from an AoE Immob, needed one, and how this is because Controllers are a solved equation with a clear optimal gameplay loop.  No matter how many more mediocre sets get added, not being able to Immob enemies just means that scatter is inevitable when using something like a typical 90s AoE Stun.  Even if enemies scatter slowly, this is mathematically less effective than if they couldn't scatter at all: not *just* for you, but for everyone else on your team.  Sets like Arsenal Control are simply going to compare unfavorably to the good Control sets, and people who care about efficiency are going to roll another Fire Control character instead.  This set will languish in unpopularity and that is its fate.  This was avoidable... but not anymore.

 

One more thing to the pile of "yeah it works I guess but there's no incentive to play it."

 

yep , while i agree adding new themes is nice , and we should be thankfull that devs add sets...

 

to me  just 3 powers of plant or stone  feels better control than the whole arsenal control set 

 

@ShinMagmus u missed elec 😞 

Edited January 28 by warlyx

[LastHumanSoldier]

Just a FYI to people testing the Smoke Grenade.
Domination is currently not working (at all/consistently) on test.

 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

17 minutes ago, LastHumanSoldier said:

Just a FYI to people testing the Smoke Grenade.
Domination is currently not working (at all/consistently) on test.

 

Reviewing the power suggests that it overpowers on 5% of the opportunities to do that and domination activates 25% of the time that confusion activates. 

Smoke grenade is a confuse-based-analogue to volcanic gasses, which doesn't ever activate domination. Technically, it's a step up on how most pseudopets function to consider overpower or domination mechanics at all. 

Edited January 29 by EnjoyTheJourney

[LastHumanSoldier]

9 minutes ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Reviewing the power suggests that it overpowers on 5% of the opportunities to do that and domination activates 25% of the time that confusion activates. 

Smoke grenade is a confuse-based-analogue to volcanic gasses, which doesn't ever activate domination. Technically, it's a step up on how most pseudopets function to consider overpower or domination mechanics at all. 

 

I realize my comment is confusing and vague.
Just to be clear:

Domination for the AT as a whole isn't working consistently on Test.
It works fine on secondaries, but primaries aren't functioning correctly in the current build. 

 

 

 

Edited January 29 by LastHumanSoldier

[Captain Powerhouse]

32 minutes ago, LastHumanSoldier said:

Just a FYI to people testing the Smoke Grenade.
Domination is currently not working (at all/consistently) on test.

 

 

Domination not working is a known issue. Only power that seems to be working with Domination right now is precisely Smoke Cannister.