Permanent Team Synergy (8x Leadership)

[RedKnight808]

I'm thinking about a team of 8 friends who only play together and each of them has Leadership running. I don't know the deep numbers, how Accuracy and To-Hit interplay with each other, or how doing missions against purple mobs / AVs will change things. I could really use some advice from a numbers guru. Would 8x Tactics mitigate the need for slotting ACC IOs on attack powers?  Would 8x Assault surpass an attack power 3-slotted for DAM? What is the character/IO level threshold where slotting ACC and DAM would be effected? What level would ACC and DAM hit its cap? Thanks for any assistance you can provide for me here. 🙂

[MonteCarla]

The values vary between Archetypes. 

Defenders get the highest numbers. 8 Defenders running the Leadership toggles give you:

 

Manouvers: +28% Defence or 44% slotted (practically soft-capped)

Tactics: +100% To Hit (unslotted). Yeah, you won't need to slot for accuracy 🙂

Assault: +150% Damage

 

( 8 Defenders would do so many other good things to each other that dwarf these numbers...)

 

Blasters, Stalkers and Scrappers have the lowest values. They would get:

 

Manouvers:  +18% Defence, +29% Slotted (almost softcapped with a small Luck)

Tactics: +80% To Hit (Still don't need to slot for accuracy)

Assault: +84% Damage

 

So a mixed team will have values somewhere in between. It will be good, but two or three support characters with the right sets will completely overshadow Leadership, as they should.

 

 

And it gets really interesting with Arachnos Soldiers and Widows. They get Defender values plus their own duplicate sets of toggles (colloquially known as "Spiderbuffs")

 

Tactical Training Manouvers is +10%/+16% Defence per character!!! (so over 3 time normal)

The other two are the same. So 8 VEATS get:

+172% Defence! (In practice you wouldn't bother running your normal Manouvers, so "only" +144%)

+200% To Hit!!

+300% Damage!!!

 

I've seen all-VEAT Task Forces advertised, and can understand why 🙂

[MoonSheep]

if you’re interested in going down this path i’d recommend most of you try to run VEATS. their leadership powers are much stronger than the standard ones - and - they can pick the regular leadership pool also

 

i agree with Clave on the accuracy point. i don’t normally pick up tactics 

[MonteCarla]

With super-teams in general...

 

I theorycraft and play in them quite a bit, but sometimes pause to remember that there's basically three things that support powers do:

- Our health bars are not moving

- Our blue bars are not moving

- The enemy are dying really fast

 

A Leadership or VEAT team do the first and last, but don't have any group endurance tools (and kinda need it to run all those toggles). Adding in a team end manager like Kinetics, Empathy or Rad Emission will help out a lot.

[nihilii]

7 hours ago, RedKnight808 said:

Would 8x Tactics mitigate the need for slotting ACC IOs on attack powers?

 

Most definitely!

 

7 hours ago, RedKnight808 said:

Would 8x Assault surpass an attack power 3-slotted for DAM?

It stacks with it.

Without other buffs, I think the idea SO slotting for a Leadership team is 3 DAM, 2 END and 1 RECH.
As much damage as possible.
Good endurance reduction to make sure you don't run yourself dry, especially running those toggles.
And one recharge because, really, you don't need anything else at this point.

[Ukase]

Interesting. There's just potential for one issue - the range of these powers. I know on a corruptor, it's 60 foot radius. Now, in real life, staying within 60 feet of each other sounds fairly simple. But if one or two falls out of that range, on really tough content, might that result in a cascading failure? I wonder how many of my sg folks would wander off relying on such tactics, pun intended. (Cuz there's always one or two that take a different path.) 

 

[Sovera]

As the others have said Leadership will do that, but, you will annihilate the game by all 8 being support.

 

You might think you need a tanky bro in the team. No, all the support will turn EVERYONE tanky.

 

You might think you need a few characters specialized in damage. No, all the support will turn EVERYONE into a damage spitting monster.

 

 

Obviously try not to overlap too much, but a couple of you doing resistance shields, a couple doing defense shields, a couple doing buffs, debuffs, and you'll be running amok on any group content.

[Shred Monkey]

Make VEATS so you can run have 16 of each power, not just 8.... I think they get the top multiplier, too.

 

Edited March 16 by Shred Monkey

[biostem]

18 hours ago, RedKnight808 said:

Would 8x Tactics mitigate the need for slotting ACC IOs on attack powers?

So the worst value for tactics, IIRC, is for MMs, which is like 7% tohit (base), so roughly 10-11% enhanced.  With 8 players running that, it'd be at least a 56% tohit buff, which is massive.  I'd wager you could skip slotting acc altogether in that scenario.

 

18 hours ago, RedKnight808 said:

Would 8x Assault surpass an attack power 3-slotted for DAM?

Assault ranged from like 10% - 15% each.  I normally slot 3x dmg, which is over a 90% boost.  The trick here is that, outside of buffs like fulcrum shift, various ATs have different damage caps, but I think they are at least 300% each, so I'd still slot for dmg.

 

 

[Haijinx]

 

1 hour ago, Shred Monkey said:

Make VEATS so you can run have 16 of each power, not just 8.... I think they get the top multiplier, too.

 

 

This

Edited March 16 by Haijinx

[Riverdusk]

18 hours ago, MonteCarla said:

With super-teams in general...

 

I theorycraft and play in them quite a bit, but sometimes pause to remember that there's basically three things that support powers do:

- Our health bars are not moving

- Our blue bars are not moving

- The enemy are dying really fast

 

A Leadership or VEAT team do the first and last, but don't have any group endurance tools (and kinda need it to run all those toggles). Adding in a team end manager like Kinetics, Empathy or Rad Emission will help out a lot.

 

Yep, never run on an all leadership team in particular.  But I have a long time ago run on an all rad emission team.  Stacking AM being the big key, huge damage bonus, huge recharge bonus, huge recovery bonus, even a huge movespeed bonus.  Enough stacking mez resistance so that even if you do get hit with a mez it only lasts for a fraction of a second before you shake it off.   Pretty sure a lot were running leadership toggles on top of that.  That is also of course if anything moves at all, which rarely happened thanks to stacking choking clouds.

 

Was quite crazy good.

[Doomguide2005]

 

21 hours ago, Sovera said:

Obviously try not to overlap too much, but a couple of you doing resistance shields, a couple doing defense shields, a couple doing buffs, debuffs, and you'll be running amok on any group content.

Having been on many Green Machine teams i can definitely vouch for the utter overkill 8 Empaths will become.  Do you need accuracy.  Not even close to need.  At 8 Incarnate level GMs normally enhanced your overkill is in overkill as in if the foe was at the Tanker defense hard cap of 225 you'll need roughly each Empath to stack 5 Fortitude a piece and with no accuracy enhancement at all your final to hit will be 95%.  Many GMs at the recharge levels we'll reach can readily cast 5 Forts across the team each if my quickly done napkin math is correct (8 Tactics +144 To Hit + each additional Fort another +18 To Hit).  

 

Which brings me to @Sovera's comment above.  My friends and I did what she described. By the low 20's (you know that distant nearly impossible level to reach) we were obliterating +4/×8 Arachnos in Faultline up to and including Arbiter Sands and other AVs.  There were just 5 of us.  1 Scrapper DM/WP and 4 Defenders.  1 each Dark Miasma/Archery, a Dark/Dark, a Cold/Dark and a Sonic/Dark (yes we weren't intending a superteam merely a team themed around Dark power sets and ...).  We were our own worst enemy as it turned out.  We bored ourselves to death and as a team we didn't get past 30th.  I think only my Sonic/Dark reached 50.  

[Troo]

I will echo that even at 5x you're likely steam rolling the game.

[DoctorDitko]

Defender-stacked teams rock and roll!

Turns out, enough defense is a really good offense!

[Haijinx]

49 minutes ago, Troo said:

I will echo that even at 5x you're likely steam rolling the game.

That's why the Veat idea is so good, less worrying about keeping the cats all herded.  

 

 

[MonteCarla]

9 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

 

We were our own worst enemy as it turned out.  We bored ourselves to death and as a team we didn't get past 30th.  I think only my Sonic/Dark reached 50.  

 

I've been part of three Empathy duos and the same thing happened. Just with two (IO'd out) Empaths buffing each other. All three duos stalled in the 40's at the point where everything stopped being a challenge.
That's how good stacking support powersets is!

[Doomguide2005]

2 minutes ago, MonteCarla said:

 

I've been part of three Empathy duos and the same thing happened. Just with two (IO'd out) Empaths buffing each other. All three duos stalled in the 40's at the point where everything stopped being a challenge.
That's how good stacking support powersets is!

Yeah about the only trouble I've ever seen in a small, all Empathy team, is AVs.  No native way to reduce regeneration in particular.  You need either Envenomed Daggers, pets for more damage or regen debuffs (Shivans etc.) and/or maybe multiple /Sonic or something outside of the primary basically to push it over the edge.  And yeah the AVs really aren't going to take out an Empath in the duo if they keep the buffs rolling.