Enemies and Damage.

[BZRKR]

1 hour ago, Xaddy said:

At the bottom, above the Chat category. 

Thank you! NOW I WILL BE UNSTOPPABLE! MUAH HAHAH 🙂

[High_Beam]

21 hours ago, Luminara said:

The problem was that your TF was set to Enemies Buffed and Players Debuffed.

And a Task Force Leader that sets that, unannounced, should have their ass beaten . . . for like 33.6 seconds straight.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

Short of a bug occurring though, he can't be more than level 40 on a Manti TF, right?

 

I don't know.  The AV version of Hopkins has a level range of 32-44.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/entity.html?entity=crey_hopkins

 

If the level range goes to 44, he must spawn at 44 somewhere.

 

1 minute ago, ZemX said:

What effect exactly do "enemies buffed" and "players debuffed" have when you select them?

 

Players Debuffed:  https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=temporary_powers.temporary_powers.challenge_debuff - reduced hit chances, reduced damage, easier to mez.

 

Can't find the temp power for Enemies Buffed, but it does this:  https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=objects.challenge_buff.challenge_buff - increased hit chances, increased damage, harder to mez.

 

22 minutes ago, ZemX said:

I don't think 11K damage would be possible even then.

 

An Enemies Buffed +9 Hopkins AV using Total Focus on a player saddled with ~150% -Res could hit for around 11k damage.

[ZemX]

21 minutes ago, Luminara said:

If the level range goes to 44, he must spawn at 44 somewhere.

 

He shows up in the Freakish Lab of Dr. Vahzilok, and since Buzzsaw is a 25-39 contact, he would top out at 44 on a +4 notoriety setting.  On a Manti TF, he would be at most 35+5.

 

23 minutes ago, Luminara said:

An Enemies Buffed +9 Hopkins AV using Total Focus on a player saddled with ~150% -Res could hit for around 11k damage.

 

That might just be possible if you start the TF with a level 31 lead, get a +9 PP Elite Rad Defender to toggle you with Enervating Field and then run over to smack Hopkins in the face with your Hurricane.... yet, somehow I don't think that's what happened here.   But now I almost want to try it.  🤪

 

Thanks for the buff/debuff links tho.  None of my search-fu was working for that.

[Ultimo]

You guys are obviously WAY beyond me as far as the nuts and bolts go... so I'll provide what info I can.

 

I didn't set up the TF, it was a fellow who was doing it for the first time.  It's entirely possible he had bad settings.  I know for certain, for example, that he had disabled temp powers.

 

When my character was attacked, he was as defensive as I could make him.  He was running Combat Jumping, Hover, Maneuvers, Weave, Tough, Steamy Mist and Hurricane, and I'd fired off three medium purples before teleporting in.  All are fully slotted with SOs (I tend to emphasize survivability on my characters).

 

After I was hit, I checked the combat log.  It said he had a 5% chance to hit, and rolled 3.3.  Later, when Countess Crey did the same, it said she had a 7.5% chance to hit and rolled a 3.3.  I thought it interesting they were the same number... but other attacks that hit me were not, though all were less than 3.

 

 

However, all this is a bit beside the point.  The main issue I have is that this enemy was able to do enough damage to instantly defeat me, and there isn't ANYTHING I could do about it.  When there's nothing the player can do to avoid defeat, there's no game to play, if you take my meaning.

 

Years ago, I used to GM a Champions pen and paper game, and I found I couldn't use any of the various villains in the Villains books, and it was usually because of this exact problem.  They were SO overpowered, and capable of SO much damage all at once, that it was impossible to use them as presented in the books without instantly overwhelming the players.  That was no fun for anyone, and ruined any kind of dramatic storytelling.

So, I went through and revamped them all a bit, reducing their damage output to be similar to what the players were themselves capable of, and increased the total Stun (health) of the main bad guys, so they could stand up to the heroes for a while.  This made ALL the difference.  You don't want enemies that can oneshot the heroes, because it ruins the drama, ruins the fun.  The exception is that it's PART of the story... for example, there's some objective that's boosting the bad guy's power.  If you destroy it, he returns to normal... and in such cases, the heroes need to be able to reliably avoid those oneshot attacks.  Anything else means there's no game involved.  Give the enemy an "I win" button, and there's no point in trying.

 

I don't know if I'm being clear here... I hope you guys understand my point.

 

And, I really appreciate the deeper dive into the mechanics.  You guys rock.

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Ultimo said:

Give the enemy an "I win" button

This occurred because the leader of the Task Force selected the setting to make it this way. 

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Ultimo said:

The main issue I have is that this enemy was able to do enough damage to instantly defeat me, and there isn't ANYTHING I could do about it.

 

You weren't Cuisinarted because the game isn't fair, it happened because you tried to bend the rules without understanding them.  AVs aren't ordinary foes, they're not supposed to hit like kittens batting at cotton balls and you shouldn't have been humping Hopkins' leg.

 

You could have moved away before that second melee attack turned you into marinara.  You could have used green inspirations to restore yourself to full HP.  You could have let a more suitable archetype take the aggro.  You could have worked out a strategy with your teammates beforehand, with the other two Storms spamming O2 Boost on you and anyone who might've had an Absorb shield keeping it on you (there's one available at level 4 in the Sorcery pool).  You could've done a lot of things, but you chose to stand in melee range of the AV and let him pound on you.

 

You defeated yourself, the AV was just the tool you used to do it.  If you want to tank AVs as a defender, you have to be more creative than popping a few inspirations and throwing yourself at their fist.

[ZemX]

10 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

This occurred because the leader of the Task Force selected the setting to make it this way. 

 

I doubt this occurred at all.

 

edit:  Okay, to be less blunt about it.  I think OP probably did get dropped instantly by Hopkins, but that would not have required any challenge settings or even any raised difficulty setting.   At level 35, the max for Manti TF, and even up against an even-con Hopkins it would be OP at around 830 hit points (Defender average hit points at 35) vs. Hopkins's Total Focus which can deal 1K pure energy damage at that level.  Or even his Bone Smasher which is 839 energy.  With no energy resist, that's enough right there.  It needs no 11K damage or challenge settings.  A Defender trying to melee Hopkins at level 35 would need significant energy resist to mitigate the lucky hits.  Defense alone might work but the more swings he gets, the less likely you are to stay upright.   

 

Again, that's at minimum difficulty settings, essentially.  It gets worse from there.  But point is, it doesn't need challenge settings for his Defender to be in trouble standing next to Hopkins.  When I tank him, I always remind squishies that even if he's focused on me, he still has a couple hard-hitting AoEs in melee range.  Hopkins has both Foot Stomp and Whirling Hands. 

 

He probably surprises a lot of squishies who built primarily S/L defense or who rely on toHit debuffing.  His attacks are almost all purely energy based except for Foot Stomp and his couple ranged rifle shots.

Edited May 23 by ZemX

[Oubliette_Red]

I see your 11,000 damage and raise you 44,973,156...

 

[Dauntless]

On 5/21/2024 at 7:30 PM, Biff Pow said:

Somewhere on an AV forum, Hopkins is complaining about my Blaster's damage.

 

This has to be the single most redeeming statement in this entire thread.  

[Triumphant]

Hopkins is a beast.  Many heroes have been laid low by him.  This is nothing to feel ashamed about.

 

Having said that, he is beatable, even fighting solo- just a very hard nut to crack.  I would not want to tangle with him using primarily a control and/or debuff type AT though, and I can only imagine your frustration while attempting this.

[Triumphant]

12 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

You weren't Cuisinarted because the game isn't fair, it happened because you tried to bend the rules without understanding them.  AVs aren't ordinary foes, they're not supposed to hit like kittens batting at cotton balls and you shouldn't have been humping Hopkins' leg.

 

You could have moved away before that second melee attack turned you into marinara.  You could have used green inspirations to restore yourself to full HP.  You could have let a more suitable archetype take the aggro.  You could have worked out a strategy with your teammates beforehand, with the other two Storms spamming O2 Boost on you and anyone who might've had an Absorb shield keeping it on you (there's one available at level 4 in the Sorcery pool).  You could've done a lot of things, but you chose to stand in melee range of the AV and let him pound on you.

 

You defeated yourself, the AV was just the tool you used to do it.  If you want to tank AVs as a defender, you have to be more creative than popping a few inspirations and throwing yourself at their fist.

 

Also, a bit harsh, but you aren't wrong, either.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Triumphant said:

a bit harsh

 

And?

[Triumphant]

38 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

And?

 

Eh.  Nothing, I guess.  🤷‍♂️

[Ultimo]

19 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

You weren't Cuisinarted because the game isn't fair, it happened because you tried to bend the rules without understanding them.  AVs aren't ordinary foes, they're not supposed to hit like kittens batting at cotton balls and you shouldn't have been humping Hopkins' leg.

 

You could have moved away before that second melee attack turned you into marinara.  You could have used green inspirations to restore yourself to full HP.  You could have let a more suitable archetype take the aggro.  You could have worked out a strategy with your teammates beforehand, with the other two Storms spamming O2 Boost on you and anyone who might've had an Absorb shield keeping it on you (there's one available at level 4 in the Sorcery pool).  You could've done a lot of things, but you chose to stand in melee range of the AV and let him pound on you.

 

You defeated yourself, the AV was just the tool you used to do it.  If you want to tank AVs as a defender, you have to be more creative than popping a few inspirations and throwing yourself at their fist.

Well... yes and no.  It's true that the conditions were unusual, but the experience isn't all that unusual, nor does it invalidate my point.

 

I couldn't have moved away.  I couldn't use an inspiration.  The others couldn't do any healing, there was no TIME.  The strategy is one we'd been using throughout the TF (since our Tanker quit).  I was still in the teleport animation, then was in the knockdown animation, and then was dead.  I had no opportunity to do ANYTHING.  He didn't pound on me, he attacked me ONCE and did all my health.  Yes, it left 1 hit point, but the effect is the same.  As I said, I don't see what more I could have done.  The character was running as many defensive powers as was available to him AND supplemented that with inspirations.  Even if he had done the 3000 damage you say is more typical, he STILL would have oneshotted me THREE TIMES OVER.  That's a lot of overkill.  Even if I swallowed a whole tray of orange inspirations, I doubt it would have made a difference.

 

Perhaps I'm not being clear.  The issue is that there's no FUN if there's nothing to do.  There's no DRAMA if the fight is over instantly.  The fun, the drama, the story, is found in the interaction, the back and forth.  When Worf fought Gowron, it went back and forth.  Each one had the advantage at different points in the fight.  Same with Obi-Wan and Vader.  Same with Luke and Vader (both times).  As far as gameplay is concerned, I don't think it's appropriate or fun for any enemy to be able to instantly defeat a player.

 

But, I feel I'm repeating myself, so I'll let the matter rest.  Again, I appreciate the thoughts and insight.

[Eiko-chan]

There is code that keeps players from being one-shotted. If you are at full health, you will be left at 1 no matter how much damage you take, barring certain "scripted death" effects.
The attack he hit you with was Total Focus, which is one of (if not THE) single highest-damage attacks in the game. Even Tankers usually feel the pain of a Total Focus hit. 

Defence is only a chance to not be hit; even capped, you will always have a 5% chance of being hit. And the AV design is such that they do, in fact, smash right through the "squishy" classes, like Defenders. Without a tank - which could be a Tanker, a Brute, an Arachnos Soldier or Widow, or Kheldian - or a very-well built Scrapper and maybe even Stalker or Mastermind - you're not really supposed to be able to "do something" about getting hit by a Archvillain. 
But that was like... half the ATs in the game I listed. So there's a lot of options available to players. 
ETA: Heck, with the right combo of Defenders, you could do it with Defenders too. Enough Defenders can buff people into Tanker levels of toughness regardless of AT.

You still would have been reeling from the Total Focus, though. That's a beast of an attack.

Edited May 24 by Eiko-chan

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Ultimo said:

Perhaps I'm not being clear.  The issue is that there's no FUN if there's nothing to do.

No, you've been very clear.  You're upset because AVs, the class of enemy designed to be capable of defeating tankers and brutes, can't be face-tanked by a defender, and feel that the game would be more "fun" (for you) if they were significantly less powerful.

 

I believe I've been equally clear that the fault was with your reliance on +Defense and -ToHit instead of -Damage, +Resistance and a heal that you could benefit from, your decision to stand within 5' of the AV (Hopkins' TF has a range of 5') instead of keeping him at the edge of Hurricane's radius (25') where you would've been very safe since he only has two ranged attacks and they're both comparatively low damage, your failure to react in the 1.865s between Total Focus' damage and Foot Stomp's damage (and no, you weren't "still in the teleport animation".  you stated that you teleported next to the AV and used "an attack"), your lack of coordination with your teammates (they should've been spamming O2 Boost on you before you even activated Teleport), and your lack of knowledge of the relevant mechanics and numbers.

 

1 hour ago, Ultimo said:

There's no DRAMA if the fight is over instantly.

 

Well, there are two pages of it here, so...

 

2 hours ago, Ultimo said:

As far as gameplay is concerned, I don't think it's appropriate or fun for any enemy to be able to instantly defeat a player.

 

Something has to be capable of defeating tankers, brutes, Dwarf form Kheldians, Banes, Crabs, Scrappers, bodyguard mode Masterminds and Sentinels who built to tank.  If you don't want to be defeated quickly by that something, don't bring a broom to a gun fight.

[BazookaTwo]

On 5/23/2024 at 9:24 AM, Ultimo said:

However, all this is a bit beside the point.  The main issue I have is that this enemy was able to do enough damage to instantly defeat me, and there isn't ANYTHING I could do about it. 

 

That's gonna happen sometimes. On any AT. 

[tidge]

Now that it is more evident that the the OP wants to be able to face-tank AVs with a Defender... below level 40... and has doubled-down on this attitude... sympathy has evaporated.

 

As @Luminara wrote: relying on +Defense and -ToHit is eventually going to lead to disappointment. AVs are not just like the mooks "but at +N"  from the rest of the mission. AVs require some strategy and coordination. On TFs like Manticore, it may not look that way if

• a team has been steamrolling/stealthing, and
• there are a bunch of experienced players with a wide variety of tricks (including controls, debuffs, team buffs/heals) to call on for the AV fights

 

[ZemX]

13 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Even if he had done the 3000 damage you say is more typical, he STILL would have oneshotted me THREE TIMES OVER.  That's a lot of overkill.

 

3K is not "typical".   This number came about because @Luminara was trying to make sense of your claim about 11k damage and is speculating it must have involved max. challenge and notoriety settings.  The conditions necessary to get Hopkins to hit you for even 3K at this level are pretty weird and I seriously doubt you were running with those settings given you are also saying the AVs had 5% chances (impossible) or 7.5% (possible only at even-con) to hit you.

 

Hopkins as an even-con level 35 AV can hit you for 1K with Total Focus.  That goes up to 1550 if he's +5 to you (the maximum if TF is set to +4 difficulty).  It goes up again to 2325 damage if the TF is set to "enemies buffed".   But if we're going there, you already have no argument.  There's no "I should be able to tank an AV with my SO-built Defender on the the hardest difficulty settings" argument to be made.  The game is not even designed to make this easy to do at +0 difficulty.

 

13 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Even if I swallowed a whole tray of orange inspirations, I doubt it would have made a difference.

 

I don't.  Eight small oranges or fewer larger ones would have capped you at 75% energy resist.   His Total Focus, even at +5 level to you would then have done 388 damage.  A single break-free would have prevented you getting knocked down, giving you more than enough time to react to that hit and heal, move, or do something else.   Your tactics and your build need to match the challenge you're facing or you won't do well.  The specific tactic you were using the entire rest of the TF relied heavily on -toHit and controls that would work fantastically well against boss-level and lower enemies, but an AV class enemy typically can ignore that or reduce it in effectiveness.

[PeregrineFalcon]

It looks like my earlier guess was right. This is just the Tankfender version of last month's "my Defender doesn't do as much damage as a Blaster" thread.

 

Your Defender not being able to tank as well as a Tank is working as intended.

[RelativeQuanta]

It seems like there are actually two conversations happening here.

1. You tried to tank a AV with a squishy character.  You died by design.
2. The fact that a AV can one shot a character with no potential for counterplay is bad design

On point 2, I actually agree with Ultimo, though I think City of Heroes has gone too far down the trinity design (despite statements to the contrary!) to really change this.  Any changes to this formula would seriously disrupt the way the game plays.  

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, RelativeQuanta said:

It seems like there are actually two conversations happening here.

1. You tried to tank a AV with a squishy character.  You died by design.
2. The fact that a AV can one shot a character with no potential for counterplay is bad design

On point 2, I actually agree with Ultimo

 

No, there's only one conversation.  The AV didn't defeat the OP because the design is bad, or because the design denied the OP the opportunity to react, or because the design allows AVs to one-shot, or because the design has a flaw in not making allowance for low HP archetypes.  The AV defeated the OP because the OP was within 5' of the AV.  The OP should've been at range, not bumping and grinding on the AV.  Ranged attacks deal less damage than melee attacks.  Almost all low HP archetypes are also capable of staying out of melee range at all times.  This is by design.  This is the design.  Ranged = less risk.  Low HP archetypes = ranged archetypes.

The design didn't fail the OP, the OP ignored the design.

[Ultimo]

I still don't think people are understanding me.  I'm not saying my Defender should have been able to tank.  That's not his role, that's not what he's built for.  However, I also don't think it should be possible for a character to be defeated instantly with no opportunity to react to it.  Refer back to my explanation about GMing Champions.  It's a poor design if the enemy is able to defeat ANY player character instantly.  Will designing an enemy that way make it harder for that enemy to defeat tanks?  Of course, but that's why they're TANKS, and they pay for that durability by sacrificing other abilities.

 

I was still in the teleport animation as I said I was.  When I said I would teleport in and initiate an attack, that was the PLAN, as I'd been doing throughout the mission.  In this case, I didn't have a chance to do it.  But again, this specific example isn't the point, it's an example of a general principle.  I get that you disagree with me, but that's fine.  We can agree to disagree.

[ZemX]

27 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

I was still in the teleport animation as I said I was.  When I said I would teleport in and initiate an attack, that was the PLAN, as I'd been doing throughout the mission.

 

Why does it matter you've been using this same tactic the whole mission?   This guy isn't like any other enemy in the entire Task Force.  He has extreme energy damage, up to mag 4 stun, knockdown, and, crucially, can ignore 3/4 of your Hurricane's toHit debuff.   You ran up into this guys face, effectively, with nothing that you'd need to survive in melee range: And you didn't. 

 

Game worked exactly as intended there.  What you need to take away from this experience is that you need another tactic if you want to go at him with the same team.  You've gotten some good advice already.  Try to fight him at range.  Hover.  Make him use his weaker ranged attacks.   Bolster your resistance and KB protect with inspirations so you aren't mezzed and then KO'd.  On a team, share the aggro.  Kite him if you have to.  Run away while your teammates pound on him.   

 

You're fixated on the fact you couldn't react when you should have been proactive.  You should not have put yourself in a position where you needed to react to a 1K energy punch + mag 4 stun.  This game rewards smart play.  That IS good design.