If Pets are this bad, what is the point of Masterminds?

[Caios]

I've tried running and coming up with multiple variations of mastermind builds to try to get something to work. I've researched across all the online sources I could to solve this one problem.

 

No matter what I do, pets always die too quickly in the majority of content. So the entirety of Mastermind's gameplay boils down to ...

 

• Resummon Pets
• Rebuff Pets
• ...
• Pets all die, do it all over again
   

I'm trying to enjoy the whole mastermind themes, the idea of being able to control minions and followers to do things for me in battle.

They never do, they all just die and I waste all my time doing nothing but resummon them.

This is insanely frustrating. How do you get pets that don't die all the time? 

[Force Redux]

MMs are my fave. They shouldn't be dying too often, normally. 

 

I myself take them out on trials and TFs often, including ones that are usually not considered great for pet health (ex, TinPex). Knowing how to control pets, such as use of GoTo to get them out of Blue Pools of Death, for instance, is essential.

 

Pet durability requires some slotting with pet IOs, management with control, and depends on your power picks: 

 

Bots/FF is essentially immortal, for example. Great mastermind to learn with. 

 

What powers are you playing?

What content are you doing?

How are your pet commands? 

Edited May 26 by Force Redux

[kelika2]

MMs require thought.  its not like other ATs where you can slap together a savage/fire aura brute and stack dots to win while slotting for melee/s/l def.  mostly because pets do not benefit from most IOs/sets

 

Ninja and Thermal?  Your ganna have a bad time

Ninja and Cold or FF?  You are stacking defense with defense and you are ganna have a good time

 

The list can go on but you need to synergize sets thinking of your pets inherent and your secondaries benefit.  The only anomaly to this is necromancy and dark miasma.  Dark Mia can get staggering amounts of -tohit when fully slotted, and necromancy pet resists are for rare/uncommon damage types

[tidge]

8 hours ago, Caios said:

No matter what I do, pets always die too quickly in the majority of content. So the entirety of Mastermind's gameplay boils down to ...

 

• Resummon Pets
• Rebuff Pets
• ...
• Pets all die, do it all over again

 

"Henchmen", not "pets".

 

While my MMs certainly do get summoned and buffed, and occasionally get defeated... I have to be playing some rather extreme content or playing in a very sloppy way that this happens.

 

Without focusing on specific primary/secondary choices, or making specific enhancement slotting choices, here is some general advice for all masterminds:

1. Stay close to the henchmen, for Supremacy reasons.
2. Let the henchmen do the fighting, but from Bodyguard mode.

If the henchmen are taking huge amounts of AoE+bodyguard damage, you (the player) have probably picked the wrong fight. The spawn sizes may be too big (most enemies concentrate on single-target attacks) or the enemy is an AV/GM with a fast-charging AoE attack.

 

I think it is rather important to, for most content, avoid the temptation to direct the henchmen to attack specific enemies. It takes them out of Bodyguard mode and for melee henchmen they will run all over the place to get to their target.

 

It is also important to realize that while the Henchmen are the source of a MMs offense and hit points... but that they are intended to be defeated. It's not particularly different than a Blaster's or Scrapper's Health bar. The trick is to be playing content where you manage such things.

[PeregrineFalcon]

12 hours ago, Caios said:

This is insanely frustrating. How do you get pets that don't die all the time? 

Take one of the more defensive secondaries, like Force Field. Pair it with Maneuvers and the special MM IO.

 

Turn down the difficulty. Despite what many of the people in this forum believe, it's ok if you aren't soloing at +4/x8.

 

Also, understand that as a Mastermind you're going to be resummoning your pets a lot. It's part of the intended gameplay loop. If you're not ok with that then maybe MM isn't the AT for you.

[Force Redux]

Not to gain say anyone else's experience, but I don't typically find myself reseummoning pets often. Particularly once I have my build filled out

[Maelwys]

19 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

it's ok if you aren't soloing at +4/x8.

THIS more than anything else IMO.

It typically takes only a short time for new Mastermind players to realise that their T1 pets eventually spawn at 2 levels below them, and their T2 pets spawn at 1 level below them. However it can take much longer for them to appreciate that due to the purple patch that means those lower-level pets are going to get absolutely wrecked when fighting anything that is +5 to them or higher (+3 to the Mastermind themselves).

So do yourself a big favour and stick to +2/x8 at most unless you really know what you're getting into...

By all means softcap your pets defences and increase their resistances via good powerset selection + aura IOs; and buff them via Leadership Pool and Support Hybrid and Barrier Destiny etc. etc... but the main thing is to understand what you're actually going up against! 😀

[Force Redux]

Alpha incarnate +1 level shift really helps too

[Xandyr]

6 hours ago, tidge said:

 

"Henchmen", not "pets".

 

 What he means is that what you summon, be it Necromancy, Bots,Mercs,Beasts,etc are your HENCHMEN.

 The team that you're on....THEY are your pets. 

[Lunar Ronin]

14 minutes ago, Xandyr said:

 What he means is that what you summon, be it Necromancy, Bots,Mercs,Beasts,etc are your HENCHMEN.

 The team that you're on....THEY are your pets. 

 

Henchmen often have better AI though.

[Neiska]

@Caios Not all MM setups can perform at +4/8 solo. Some can but do require practice and knowledge. MMs are a support class but are capable of it.

 

Here are a few tips -

 

1. Try to pick a Primary and Secondary with synergies - Like a pet set with DEF and a DEF secondary, or a RES secondary.

Examples - Bots/FF, Bots/Time, Demons/Electric, Demons/Cold, Necro/Dark, Thugs/Time. But even some unexpected combinations can perform quite well, such as Necro/FF, or Robots/Dark.

 

2. You won't be able to jump right into +4 right at 50. This is because of how level shifts work. MMs benefit from that first alpha level shift more than anyone else. I cannot stress enough how much of a boost it is to you and pets, because pets are below your level to begin with, and on +4 that means your t1 pets are 7 levels below the enemy.

 

3. Make sure you have all of your pet auras. And pet control is a large part of your pets survivability, as well as yours. Keeping pets within supremacy range keeps them alive via your auras that boost them and keep you alive as well via bodyguard mode. Keeping pets close also prevents aggroing excess groups. Not everyone knows but MM pets have their own threat tables, which means MMs can fight more mobs than anyone else, even if on accident. If you let a pet wander off, you can quickly get in over your head if you aren't paying attention.

 

4. While not necessary, secondaries with aoe healing are fantastic for pets due to bodyguard interactions.

 

5. Various tricks - there are various tricks MMs can do.

-Power Boost + Farsight from time - pretty much softcaps everyone's DEF, which is fantastic to juggle with something like Barrier. When Barrier wears off, pop Power Boost + Farsight, and when that DEF boost wears off, your Barrier will be ready yo use again.

-Burnout + Gangwar/Hell on Earth - While END intensive, this is a MMs version of "burning." It lets you immediately reuse the powers but is fairly harsh on the END.

-Even if some pets aren't good for damage, they may have other uses - damage or debuff procs, Knockdown Unique, and so on.

-Group Fly - with Robots and Mercs only, you can use Group fly to great advantage. Your pets will stick close, and since they are all ranged, they will pew-pew the enemy. And few enemies have a full attack chain of ranged attacks, and even fewer have -fly. This is not a fix-all however, as some enemy types such as Arachnos has many ranged attacks, and some maps such as Caves have low ceilings. But Group Fly can make some maps and enemy types very easy. This also applies to things like Web Grenade, Tar Pit, or Distortion Field - slows and immobilize can greatly change how well your pets do if they are flying, because that is even "less" attacks that your pets are facing, before anything like DEF or RES even come into play.

-Some pet sets such as Necro you can slot unique's into the upgrade powers, and the effects will apply to pets. (But not you if you do this.) You can stack actually good regen on them, which goes a good way to help with some sets that lack healing, such as Cold.

-Some secondaries are very good at keeping Incarnate Lore pets alive, and some even benefit from Group Fly as well, such as Longbow. The giant robot is all ranged and is actually one of the better single target lore pets.

 

This is all off the top of my head, but I am sure there are things I am missing.

 

Not all MMs can solo +4/8, so if that is important to you then you may have to build for that specifically. Some MMs certainly can do it, but not all of them will be able to.

 

Lastly, don't forget the Mastermind channel of the Discord. Not all of us agree on different ways of doing things, but if you are having a specific problem there are many vets that can give you some guidance.

 

Hope this helps!

 

 

[Sovera]

To have fun. When you no longer have fun you play something else. This applies to the AT as to the game and most things in life.

[WumpusRat]

On 5/25/2024 at 10:02 PM, Caios said:

This is insanely frustrating. How do you get pets that don't die all the time? 

 

Much of it comes down to playstyle more than anything.

 

Against +4/8? Yeah, you're probably going to have a rough time with most builds. Especially if you're not in incarnate content, where the pets benefit from the incarnate level shift (all pets are 50th level in incarnate content, and each +1 you get (from alpha, lore, and destiny) will apply to the pets as well, meaning if you're 50+3 in incarnate content, all your pets are 53rd as well, which makes a huge difference. 

 

As others have said, you can also look for synergies with your primary and secondary setups.

 

You'll also want to make sure to slot the 6 +def/+resist IO auras to boost the pets' survival rate.

Expedient Reinforcement and Sovereign Right have +10% resist all IOs

Call to Arms and Edict of the Master have +5% all defense IOs

Command of the Mastermind has a +10% aoe defense IO, which rises to +15% with the superior version

Mark of Supremacy has a +10% resist all IO, which rises to +15% with the superior version

 

So if you slot all 6 auras, your pets will have +30% resist (+35% with superior), +10% to all defense, and +10% additional aoe defense (+15% with superior, for +25% aoe total)

 

With a secondary that boosts resists and the auras, your pets can easily have around +55% resist to just about everything, making some of them very tanky.

With a secondary that boosts defense, the auras, and maneuvers, your pets can generally achieve around 40-45% defense vs most everything, and upwards of 60% vs aoe (some pets will be even higher, such as thugs with the enforcers maneuvers powers or bots with the protectors' shield)

 

If your secondary also has healing/aoe healing, it makes it far easier to keep your pets alive. Since they're your source of damage as well as defense with bodyguard mode, you want them to be alive as much as possible. AoE healing is incredibly useful, especially with pets that like to clump up, like ninjas, undead, and beasts, as those are primarily melee pets. Inevitably, though, you're going to lose pets in fights. As long as you're not losing them too rapidly it shouldn't be too hard to get them back up and into the fight again. If necessary, fall back and regroup. There's no shame in backing off and getting a better handle on the situation.

 

Also, don't neglect personal defenses. There are MANY times where I've lost pets in nasty fights, but I have enough personal resists and defense to tank long enough to get my pets back up and bodyguard established. 

 

Additionally, if you really want to, there's a type of build called "tankermind", which leverages the presence taunt power to force things to fight you, rather than your pets. With bodyguard mode and some defenses of your own (patron shield, tough, set bonuses, etc), you can be incredibly tanky. And your pets benefit from stuff shooting YOU, rather than them. But that's definitely a more "advanced" way of fighting for a MM, since it requires a whole new set of tactics and build.

Edited May 27 by WumpusRat

[tidge]

14 hours ago, WumpusRat said:

Additionally, if you really want to, there's a type of build called "tankermind", which leverages the presence taunt power to force things to fight you, rather than your pets. With bodyguard mode and some defenses of your own (patron shield, tough, set bonuses, etc), you can be incredibly tanky. And your pets benefit from stuff shooting YOU, rather than them. But that's definitely a more "advanced" way of fighting for a MM, since it requires a whole new set of tactics and build.

 

I do not recommend MMs take the Presence pool, even for Provoke. Provoke has a max target cap of 5, and requires a ToHit roll. Most MM AoE attacks have a larger maximum number of targets... if you want the attention of critters, just use a properly-slotted AoE attack to get the attention of the critters. Any of the ranged AoEs can be slotted with a %-Resistance piece, or a Knockdown piece as well.

[Crysis]

I don’t play MM’s because they are the “most powerful” of all AT’s.  I play them for the tacti-cool ability to direct my pets and this adds a new flavor to the game mechanics.  That said, at higher levels and with incarnates, MM’s are pretty great at PVE content.  The level shift dynamic is stupid and needs to be dropped I think, that was a game design for a much older flavor of this game and we’ve since far outgrown the need for such a penalty (same for the +END penalties we got).  But those two ‘pre-nerfs’ were designed intentionally because the devs saw how OP an MM -could- be if not handicapped.  Before Tanks got their upgraded damage, you were basically a +RES (via BG) distributed tanker with a bunch of melee and/or ranged attacks, plus buff/debuffs.  

 

But during the dark years I sought many other games to get the feel of an MM in COH.  The only thing that came even close was maybe the old school “Overlord” series or newer, the Necropolis series.  COH MM’s are rated an “advanced” class for a reason in that only by learning to effectively shift your henchmen around via the various commands and/or learning how to use the Bodyguard feature effectively, then shifting in/out of support vs. assault modes can you really “unlock” their power.  Binds are must for this class.  Anyone who says they are struggling with them almost always isn’t using binds effectively.

 

For all their challenges to play, MM’s were the original “advanced difficulty” mode of the game everyone was clamoring for but really didn’t want.  It’s been here for a long, long time.

[C U R S E]

Necro/Dark will be your go to for everything, as mine shreds everything.

 

 

[Riverdusk]

Usually when I hear people with this complaint it is because they are joining a high level team doing +4/x8 while they are still leveling up their MM.  This causes a lot of issues and more so than any other AT.

 

When you join a higher level team you are -1 to the team so +4's are often +5's or even +6 to you.  That means your henchmen are fighting up to +7 or +8 enemies.  At those level differences it is virtually impossible for them to do anything against except die....quickly.

 

When I play a MM while leveling up I avoid teams higher level than me unless they state up front that they aren't doing things at +4.  Because at that point you are really only good for your secondary.

 

Things are very different once you get you and your henchmen to 50 or even better 50+1, and of course also finish out your build (and add in all those special pet IO's.)  None of my level 50 MM's have henchmen that die often at all.  My latest (merc/dark) just rolls through most things.  But until 50, you will have a much less aggravating time sticking to teams more your own level.  You can correct me if I'm wrong about your specific situation.

 

Edited June 12 by Riverdusk

[tidge]

I don't think this is wrong, because level-shifts:

 

14 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

Usually when I hear people with this complaint it is because they are joining a high level team doing +4/x8 while they are still leveling up their MM.  This causes a lot of issues and more so than any other AT.

 

I also suspect that there may be a couple of secondary contributing factors.

1. Lackluster control of the henchmen
2. Too much of a focus on trying to support the henchmen

The first could be as simple as having the henchmen in the "wrong" stance, but it could also be positioning/picking targets. This varies a bit depending on the chosen primary.

 

The second is more subtle, but I've seen it enough that I think it is common. MMV for others, but when I see a MM focused on trying to keep the henchmen alive, as opposed to supporting the henchmen in what they need to do (defeat enemies), I think that the MM is playing on the wrong side of rewards street. I don't mean that MMs should go out of the way to treat the henchmen as disposable... but in many ways that is exactly what they are. the in-game equivalent of preserving tissue paper is spending effort on the wrong thing, IMO.

[Norl]

On 5/26/2024 at 3:53 PM, Xandyr said:

 What he means is that what you summon, be it Necromancy, Bots,Mercs,Beasts,etc are your HENCHMEN.

 The team that you're on....THEY are your pets. 

 

No joke.  I play a healer once in a while, and I do view the other players as pets, not unlike as an MM.

[Sanguinesun]

Im not sure anyone mentioned it but  Incarnate-Hyrbid Support Core Embodiment's boosts -double- in strength for pets which is sometimes overlooked by some mms (dam/acc/def) and its of course stackable up to 5 times with other people who take support core embodiment.  Often, people take other hybrids which can be fine but that doubling for pets is really often underesitmated.

[tidge]

I pretty much only take Hybrid Support, except on raw DPS characters, and occasionally hard control casters. The advantage of Support for MMs is that they always bring their own team with them.

[jkwak]

On 5/26/2024 at 8:05 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

Turn down the difficulty. Despite what many of the people in this forum believe, it's ok if you aren't soloing at +4/x8.

Even then if you have a loooooot of time, the right build and strategy...

Its painfully slow though, I don't recommend it but the point is MM can handle +4/x8 without being a regular at the Hospital.

A full team of MMs on the other hand, especially on the higher level range, even when they have only about half there build done, steamrolls thru that difficulty, the only trouble is AVs running away thru the whole map (Romulus during the finally of the ITF is the worst)

[pawstruck]

I appreciate this thread. I abandoned my Beast/Nature immediately at 50 because of this problem.

 

I guess I have some research to do... Although I have to say, what I experienced was comically bad compared to when my blaster hit 50. The latter felt like he was growing in power, whereas my MM got wrecked every time and hit like a wet noodle.

 

We'll see if some of these suggestions pan out. I'm doubtful of some, though, just because I'm Inf poor 😆 

[Donin]

ive found some useful info on this thread, but is there a "guide book" post for MM?  i really enjoy my bots/ele mm, but i constantly feel like im not doing things right.  so id love to read someting along those lines. and i dont see a sticky post for such a thing.

 

[Riverdusk]

On 6/30/2024 at 6:35 PM, jkwak said:

Even then if you have a loooooot of time, the right build and strategy...

Its painfully slow though, I don't recommend it but the point is MM can handle +4/x8 without being a regular at the Hospital.

A full team of MMs on the other hand, especially on the higher level range, even when they have only about half there build done, steamrolls thru that difficulty, the only trouble is AVs running away thru the whole map (Romulus during the finally of the ITF is the worst)

 

Several of the epic MM pools have aoe immobilizes.  By the time you hit ITF I'd hope at least a couple of MM's on the team would have one for that problem.  I almost always take one (especially on sets like bots or thugs that tend to send things running with their fire patches).