Come one, come all, please join us in beta testing Issue 28, Page 1.

[lemming]

41 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

I don't know if that feedback is likely to get me trolled (and I don't really care) but voicing it certainly feels important to me... 🤷‍♂️

Seems like decent feedback to me, but I'm inclined to agree.  I think there are some mechanics being worked on about that.  We'll see how it works out.

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

I agree with your suggestion here. I didn't have any real specifics on duration, but I did make this suggestion in the focused feedback thread. 

There were only 7 or so folks in the labyrinth when I was briefly on last night. Given my previous experiences solo, there's just not a lot for me to get out of it unless I resort to using the beta tester "I win" buttons. And I don't want to do that on the minotaur because that removes it from the zone for an hour, and another player might want that interaction. 

So, I definitely agree, the 5 minutes isn't the right duration for lower populated times. I don't know what the proper duration would be. But it isn't 5 minutes. At least, I don't think so. 
 

Just hopped on to Brainstorm to retest. I was the only one there.
My experience went pretty much like this:

Pick a Glowy portal. Enter. Engage Stealth abilities. Run as fast as possible through all the doors. Last ~10mins before getting to a sufficiently open area to find a "Gladiator in the Fog" and be given a "Draft of Fog". After screenshotting the text of the Draft (below) I began to make my way back out into the main corridor, and spotted the Minotaur lumbering quickly towards me up the corridor. As I backed away it supersped towards me and one-shotted me despite all my Stealth, Fully T4ed Incarnate powers, +MaxHP accolades/set bonuses and considerable amounts of defence and damage resistance.



My VEAT Bane has 1704 HP, >45% Defence to all positionals and 16.72% Toxic Resistance.
"Cursed Plague Howl" from this thing still had a 95% chance to hit on me, and it dealt a base 2140 points of Toxic Damage with just the FIRST hit, plus the below debuff which lingered for several minutes after the fight (I suspect it's a 5 minute debuff but couldn't see a duration listed in the powers text)



I was however able to raise and activate Surveillance; so I took a snapshot of the offending oik's powers before faceplanting a second time. Hurrah!

I then raised (again) in the hospital, entered another (red?) coloured portal; popped up all my stealth abilities (-85ft in PVE total) and waited.
Less than a minute later the minotaur appeared, ignored my stealth, and faceplanted me again.
(I've 18.97% Negative Energy Resistance so that's a base 3560HP worth of Negative Energy damage he poked me with!)


 
- - - - - - - - - -

FWIW, here's what I got from Surveillance: (Note their perception radius is lower than my 85ft stealth radius, and their current level shift is apparently only "+5"!)

     


And the "Draught of Fog" inspiration text:





...so yeah.

Feels pretty much like I've just had a cheating (since they could see through my stealth and ignore my defence) nigh-unkillable Juggernaut repeatedly play Whack-a-Mole with my character's head.

And whilst I understand the mechanics behind it (Purple Patch + AV scalars and resistances + Level Shifts), it was not exactly a Heroic or enjoyable excursion.
If that is *really* the minotaur only at Lv54+5 (e.g. conning +8 to my poor Lv50+1 Bane) then I'd hate to see them at Lv54+10... 🤯
 

Edited July 11 by Maelwys

[Ukase]

Well done getting surveillance off! 

I love the name of the power "beefy". 

When you're the only one in the labyrinth, it won't take long for the minotaur to find you - particularly if you stop to get a gladiator to talk with you - or fight you, or spend more than a few seconds standing still. 

I think if it hits as is, the best chance I'll have to explore what I want to explore and get the badges I'll want, it'll have to be on peak times when there are a lot more players in there. 

I do not envision much chance of success on a low-pop server. As it is, on Excelsior, without a competent group of players, beating the minotaur will be something two teams or more will probably have to do. But I don't know that for sure. His level at 54+6, just out of the gate..that's almost Really Hard Way Tyrant level. It'll take some cooperation, for sure. And it'll be a little easier because there won't be any crackles to avoid, but there won't be as much room to joust about either. 

I think these are potentially the types of "challenge" that some of the vocal minority want. I'm not sure why, but I don't need to know why. Other than the badges, I can't see myself engaging. Now, the maze itself, the ??? rooms, and omg - 
The server room. 

@lemming helped me find the server room. And in it, if I hadn't had the stun badges already, I probably would have earned one. That mapserver hits hard. But it stuns even more. The best thing about that is I got my costume turned green again. I wish I could make my own costume that kind of green. It never looks that way when I do so in the costume creator. 

But clearly, there's a lot of creativity in this effort. I just hope it's not a ghost town after the first week. 

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

@Maelwys, I appreciate the testing and the feedback!  But could I trouble you to post it in the focused feedback thread here?  I know that Cobalt Arachne has been reading it often and responding to concerns.  Thanks!

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Maelwys said:

If I'm reading PF's previous posts right, the point they're making is "I don't feel it's worth providing honest feedback, because I've previously done so and been punished (via accusations of trolling etc) whenever said feedback has been negative and/or unpopular"?

You're close, but you just missed the mark.

 

In the past posts with negative feedback often disappeared, and warning points acquired. Also, fellow players would attack and insult people who posted negative feedback, but when we returned said insults in kind our posts alone disappeared and more warning points were acquired while those that had blatantly attacked and insulted us got nothing.

 

But the absolute worst part of all of this is the blatant gaslighting. The continued insistence that none of this happened and that I should just go ahead and post my feedback so that "my voice will be heard."

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, lemming said:

Just the Alpha shift, like RWZ and Hami.

 

The other shifts apply to everyone and when you enter, you are level 50 even if outside, you're 45.  

 

Right to may anything that grants auto incarnate levels beyond Alpha . . . I can see why some folks might consider that incarante content. Especially with an enemy that also gets those level shifts - - -  aka Minotaur.

[golstat2003]

12 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

You're close, but you just missed the mark.

 

In the past posts with negative feedback often disappeared, and warning points acquired. Also, fellow players would attack and insult people who posted negative feedback, but when we returned said insults in kind our posts alone disappeared and more warning points were acquired while those that had blatantly attacked and insulted us got nothing.

 

But the absolute worst part of all of this is the blatant gaslighting. The continued insistence that none of this happened and that I should just go ahead and post my feedback so that "my voice will be heard."

 

Seems like those are issues to dicuss with the GM team.

 

It's not gaslighting. Post your feedback and ignore the trolls. You don't have to engage with anyone or everyone responding to your posts.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

I've only been on this job since around Christmas of last year, so I can't comment before that other than to say focused feedback (FF) threads are moderated more than ordinary threads.  And once we start moderating anywhere, but especially in FF threads, a lot of debate gets pruned as we remove posts that quote the offending post, even if that post was otherwise fine.

 

I can guarantee that any post in FF threads that doesn't quote anyone or directly or indirectly insults anyone but merely states a criticism of a new feature will not be hidden.  It's the debate between players and the insults towards players or devs that get the axe pretty quickly, not criticism.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

You're close, but you just missed the mark.

 

In the past posts with negative feedback often disappeared, and warning points acquired. Also, fellow players would attack and insult people who posted negative feedback, but when we returned said insults in kind our posts alone disappeared and more warning points were acquired while those that had blatantly attacked and insulted us got nothing.

 

But the absolute worst part of all of this is the blatant gaslighting. The continued insistence that none of this happened and that I should just go ahead and post my feedback so that "my voice will be heard."

Your narrative completely denies that players that post positive feedback also get attacked, also have posts removed, and also receive bans. Therefore, your narrative must be partially false. 
 

By denying those things, how are you not doing the same gaslighting you’re protesting?

Edited July 11 by arcane

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

*sigh*

 

Please be excellent to each other and don't pick fights . . . especially with those all to willing.

[Sovera]

2 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

You're close, but you just missed the mark.

 

In the past posts with negative feedback often disappeared, and warning points acquired. Also, fellow players would attack and insult people who posted negative feedback, but when we returned said insults in kind our posts alone disappeared and more warning points were acquired while those that had blatantly attacked and insulted us got nothing.

 

But the absolute worst part of all of this is the blatant gaslighting. The continued insistence that none of this happened and that I should just go ahead and post my feedback so that "my voice will be heard."

 

One of my two solitary warning points still make me grit my teeth. The person calls me a cheater. I call him an idiot. I get a demerit and -100 points to Gryffindor, post removed. Their post remained.

 

But the 'niggardly' thing? Ah, beautiful. So many years and it's still a tale I tell. Beautiful and encapsulating.

[MoonSheep]

soooo.. @Glacier Peak.. is this what you were hoping for when you made this thread? 😀

[cranebump]

The Fog Minotaur. Our version of the Kobayashi Maru.

[Excraft]

4 hours ago, Maelwys said:

As I backed away it supersped towards me and one-shotted me despite all my Stealth, Fully T4ed Incarnate powers, +MaxHP accolades/set bonuses and considerable amounts of defence and damage resistance.



My VEAT Bane has 1704 HP, >45% Defence to all positionals and 16.72% Toxic Resistance.
"Cursed Plague Howl" from this thing still had a 95% chance to hit on me, and it dealt a base 2140 points of Toxic Damage with just the FIRST hit, plus the below debuff which lingered for several minutes after the fight (I suspect it's a 5 minute debuff but couldn't see a duration listed in the powers text)

 

For better or for worse, this is how "challenge" is being artificially created here.  What do people expect?  Players have for years been complaining about how easy the game is, how support/control is undesirable/not needed/not required, so this is how HC responded.  Adding auto-hit un-resistable enormous spike damage to make things "harder" while making support/control desirable/needed.  This is to be expected from here on out for hard mode content. 

[Maelwys]

44 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

For better or for worse, this is how "challenge" is being artificially created here.  What do people expect?  Players have for years been complaining about how easy the game is, how support/control is undesirable/not needed/not required, so this is how HC responded.  Adding auto-hit un-resistable enormous spike damage to make things "harder" while making support/control desirable/needed.  This is to be expected from here on out for hard mode content. 

...and in most MMORPGs I'd be a fan of incredibly overpowered bosses where half the server has to club together to stand a chance of beating it.
But not in CoH.

I play this game to feel like a *proper* superhero, dammit.

(OK, even if I'm playing a Level 50+1 T4 Incarnated fully-Purple-IOed-out min-maxed toon it might not always have to be a case of 'Superman vs Random Mooks' or even 'Superman vs Doomsday'... but stuff like this feels more like 'Snapper Carr vs the OG Juggernaut'... 🚑 )

I like the idea of trying out new content. But I don't like it being gated behind assembling a league simply in order to avoid being one-shot by a macguffin steamroller; especially whenever it's the one thing in the zone that I can't feasibly beat or at least survive an encounter with as long as I'm well-built and careful. But it seems that's much easier with the likes of Hamidon than the Minotaur.

If I need to keep running older TFs and Ouroboros arcs in order to maintain the feeling of being "super" then... fine; I guess.
Perhaps my head's just still stuck somewhere around Issue 7ish? 🙂 
 

Edited July 11 by Maelwys

[Glacier Peak]

3 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

soooo.. @Glacier Peak.. is this what you were hoping for when you made this thread? 😀

Pretty much

[lemming]

6 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Right to may anything that grants auto incarnate levels beyond Alpha . . . I can see why some folks might consider that incarante content. Especially with an enemy that also gets those level shifts - - -  aka Minotaur.

So going in, no one is going to have more than +1 shift from Alpha.   Enemies are level 54, often +1.   When shifts happen due to either taking our a Malevont Fog or defeating enough EBs,  Enemy EBs also get those shifts.   Guardians are just even level with whatever. 

 

7 hours ago, Maelwys said:

As I backed away it supersped towards me and one-shotted me despite all my Stealth,

Yea, he's after You like most ambushes happen.   Hmm, I wonder if we put a target icon on the Mino's prey?  That may give people more warning.  I'll ask in feedback.

 

My strategy if I'm not using Beta stuff to deal with him?   Run and dive into a randomizer door.   Or Escape from the Fog.  If you're the only one in the labyrinth and there are no level shifts, he will take you out.   

 

Stealth Wise, if you have Stealth, or anything that gets you past the effective invisible. Blue, Red, and Yellow are pretty safe.  Green and Purple have the Rikti Drones and Rularu Eyeballs.   And not quite great stealth works fairly well, but there are a few mobs such as Resistance that do have plusses.

 

There are a few other things to watch out for such as a gladiator deciding to fight when you're too close to a big mob.

[arcane]

2 hours ago, Maelwys said:

...and in most MMORPGs I'd be a fan of incredibly overpowered bosses where half the server has to club together to stand a chance of beating it.
But not in CoH.

I play this game to feel like a *proper* superhero, dammit.

I hate this argument whenever and wherever it pops up. Just because the genre involves super heroes we’re just supposed to suspend all conventional wisdom about games needing challenges and so on. Yeah, that’s a no from me.

[Psi-bolt]

On 7/7/2024 at 2:33 PM, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

 

 But out of curiosity, what sort of things would interest you enough to try them on a Beta.

 

While the new raid zone sound interesting to me and I will try that out this weekend.  I just wanted to say that I have no interest in the new powerset.  I find that the new powersets added in Homecoming have a "cool" factor but ultimately really don't wind up being that fun FOR ME (of course others can enjoy them and that's great).  This is especially so since I like melee more than ranged in CoH.

 

So I would really love to see more proliferations among the melee ATs.   Energy Aura Tankers, Regen Tankers, Superstrength Scrappers, etc.  Especially with a couple of changes to make them work for the AT.  E.g. giving the Sentinel version of EA to Tankers.  I might also like new melee sets, but I remember from the Assault Control discussion a line from the devs that has stuck with me.  It was something along the lines that they aren't really interested in creating sets that do what other sets do already.  A fine idea, but in practice, I think it's led to new powersets being somewhat clunky and more work than they are worth.  

 

The other stuff is likewise of no interest to me.  I love the cosmetic options, but I'm kinda basic so I don't spend a lot of time with that system.   Love the work the devs are doing, it's just this particular update doesn't have a lot I personally would like and I thus believe my feedback wouldn't be as valuable.

[Ruin Mage]

12 hours ago, Maelwys said:

I play this game to feel like a *proper* superhero, dammit.

I know you did a parenthesis thing below it, but I too hate this line because:

Every superhero faces challenges. All sorts. I can list of a whole host of villains that beat their #1 enemy superhero in a variety of different ways. Being challenged at 50 is a good thing. There is always -1/x8 difficulty settings if you want to mow over mobs.

 

[jprewitt73]

10 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

Energy Aura Tankers

Yes please. 

[Sanguinesun]

17 hours ago, cranebump said:

The Fog Minotaur. Our version of the Kobayashi Maru.

 

Or Joshua's realization at the end of War Games...

[Maelwys]

  

17 hours ago, Maelwys said:

...and in most MMORPGs I'd be a fan of incredibly overpowered bosses where half the server has to club together to stand a chance of beating it.
But not in CoH.

I play this game to feel like a *proper* superhero, dammit.

 

14 hours ago, arcane said:

I hate this argument whenever and wherever it pops up. Just because the genre involves super heroes we’re just supposed to suspend all conventional wisdom about games needing challenges and so on. Yeah, that’s a no from me.

Bit of a strawman there.

This game has always involved the player being a cliché powerful hero (typically a "super" one, although building a "normal skilled human" is quite possible via natural origins and weapon based powersets etc). And core progression sees the player climbing up from level one (catching purse snatchers) to level 50 (saving the world and parallel Earths).
That's the setting, that's the story.
Then ON TOP OF that you get the opportunity to boost your inherent abilities further via enhancements and inspirations.
Later Issues have seen power levels creep higher via leveraging Inventions; then boosting them; and finally gathering additional legendary levels of power from outside sources (Incarnate abilities).

Mission Arcs and TFs see your character being the big damn hero multiple times; and whilst powerful nemesis exist in the game (one who is even appropriately named!) they're always survivable and beatable; because ultimately that's what heroes do - the story of how they win just needs to be entertaining.

IMO (and I know I'm not alone here) the main draw of CoH is that playing it makes you feel like a hero.
You can easily survive fighting huge hordes of foes; you can take on Archvillians; you can save the world.
Or you can become a Villian yourself, or some mixture of both.

Unlike most MMORPGs; CoH favours creating lots of alts, and its lower-than-level-cap TFs and Story Arcs have a lot of replay value because simply playing the game as it is is fun and engaging. Hardly any of the people I've encountered since 2004 have cared about "loot" or "difficult challenges" - instead they're in it for things like making new fun costumes, trying out different powersets, and enjoying the bedlam that comes from a bunch of friends steamrolling their way through a fun storyline where they don't have to overly worry about being punished for misclicking or going AFK for a few minutes.

Personally, one of my very favourite things to do after a hard day of work is to run "The 5th Column Overthrow" mission from Mender Lazarus, because I find mowing my way through endless hordes of Undead Nazis to be fun and incredibly cathartic. 

There are always a few outliers, but I firmly believe that it's the storyline and experiencing all the different playstyle combos that is mainly what keeps people coming back (rather than constantly just farming for money, loot and shiny things).
And yes, the friends and community - because even decades later whenever we've lost a lot of the old hands, the community here still isn't quite as much of a Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy as other MMORPGs.

In other words, this game is primarily about being a FUN PLAYGROUND rather than a DIFFICULT GRIND.

 

4 hours ago, Ruin Mage said:

I know you did a parenthesis thing below it, but I too hate this line because:

Every superhero faces challenges. All sorts. I can list of a whole host of villains that beat their #1 enemy superhero in a variety of different ways. Being challenged at 50 is a good thing. There is always -1/x8 difficulty settings if you want to mow over mobs.

 

My mild rants here are not just a wordy way of saying "I hate challenges".

Challenges are fine. Heroes thrive on challenges.
Superman has his Kryptonite just like (most) INV Tankers have holes against Psychic damage.
The trick is getting the level of Challenge right so that it's "tricky but achievable" rather than "I keep getting kerbstomped" - because the latter is simply not fun.
And it's extra tricky because of the wide variation in build effectiveness and skill levels across CoH's playerbase.

Higher difficulty levels have been baked into the game from very early in Live... however enabling those higher levels of difficulty has always been optional.
Later on during Live we got "Master of" badges (and I was one of the first to get a good few of those in the EU) - good for bragging rights... but once again, optional.
On HC we've now got "HardMode" TFs and Incarnate Trials. Great! Yet again, optional.
They've even given us "Ultimate Boss Fights" like the one in the HM4 LGTF. Still optional.

Outside of Hamidon Raids the rewards from completing these optional difficulty challenges have always been limited - a bit more EXP and some minor currency bonuses, badges, vanity items, accolades that do not contribute to making your character "mechanically better" such as Excalibonk.
Realistically the only "loot" in CoH are enhancements that anyone can save up and purchase with merits or buy from the Auction House; and it is so easy to gain large levels of currency that a lot of long-term players have resorted to inventive methods of getting around the 2 billion-per-character influence limit (like placing large bids on non-existent inspirations; or sending it via email to your global chat handle and never "claiming" it again).
This means that the "casual armchair" crowd do not notably end up left mechanically miles behind the "elite hardcore" crowd; which is something that I greatly appreciate - I'll always be very thankful that the devs in CoH have never "gated" loot.

- - - - - -

My big problem at present with the Labyrinth is that whilst going there is optional, it's accessible from the Midnighter Mansion rather than one of the very high level hazard zones, and you initially get thrown in at insane practically unbeatable levels of difficulty right off the bat if you venture in there solo or with only 1-2 friends. 

And unbeatable challenges is not, IMO, what CoH is about.

By all means ramp the Labyrinths' difficulty up drastically if someone chooses to enter it with a big team; or if the zone is highly populated by a large number of unaligned players/teams (RWZ is a good example here)... but if the zone lets you enter solo, and describes how a determined solo player can handle it, then at the very least a munchkin fully purpled T4 Incarnate build attempting to enter it solo should not get instantly one-shot without being able to do anything about it.

There are other ways to implement variation in difficulty here- you could let the level shifts linger for longer (something I'm in favour of) or you could grant everyone that enters a passive "temporary power" that gives them additional level buffs whenever there are <X people in the zone; or provide an optional setting that if someone is unteamed can make the Minotaur much less damaging towards them (or outright fail to lock onto them and/or become untouchable to them). 

It is quite possible to provide a "challenge" here without letting soloers and smaller teams on low-population servers get kerbstomped into oblivion.

Ultimately the Labyrinth looks like a very fun addition to the game and a viable alternative to AE mission spam - so I really would prefer if the majority of the CoH playerbase did not end up avoiding it like the plague just because "it's effectively an instant death zone unless you can get >X people together".
 

Edited July 12 by Maelwys

[ZacKing]

14 hours ago, arcane said:

I hate this argument whenever and wherever it pops up. Just because the genre involves super heroes we’re just supposed to suspend all conventional wisdom about games needing challenges and so on. Yeah, that’s a no from me.

 

4 hours ago, Ruin Mage said:

Every superhero faces challenges. All sorts. I can list of a whole host of villains that beat their #1 enemy superhero in a variety of different ways. Being challenged at 50 is a good thing. There is always -1/x8 difficulty settings if you want to mow over mobs.

 

I disagree with both.  No one has suggested that the game should always be a cakewalk.  This is why there's TFs, MSRs, Hamidon, iTrials etc.  Those bits of team/raid content are made specifically for teams and several of them offer hard modes for even more challenge.  

 

Telling someone to just set themselves to -1 diff in order to feel super is a disincentive to improve. 

[ZacKing]

50 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

In other words, this game is primarily about being a FUN PLAYGROUND rather than a DIFFICULT GRIND.

 

This even more true now that the game isn't a for-profit business anymore.  Difficulty grinds are made to keep people playing and paying longer.   To be clear, I'm not saying people should be able to solo 4 star hard mode TFs or iTrials.  Optional difficulty levels are a good thing.