Where are the Rogue Islands?

[Techwright]

This is a fun little talk that comes up periodically.  I was looking at Google Earth earlier and started thinking on it again.  I went to the Homecoming Wiki which reports:

 

Geographically, the Rogue Isles are a small chain of islands NW of Bermuda that run in a band 50 to 20 miles off the coast of the US. Officially known as the Etoile Islands, there are dozens of islands in the chain. The main cluster of the group, home to Spider City, is at the 50 mile marker, outside US. jurisdiction. From there the smaller islands string toward the US coast.

 

Now of course the R.I. (I see what they did there) do not exist anywhere near R. I. (Rhode Island) in the real world, however, there'd probably be some real world-like situations that would likely apply in the fictional world which bring this geographical description into question.  I refer to the 12 nautical miles (nm) territorial sea boundary (sovereign waters), the 24nm contiguous zone, and the 200 mile Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ).   For purposes of simplifying, I'll not refer to the Three Nautical Mile Line, which is contained within the other three.

 

Look here, if you want the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's definitions of these boundaries.

 

I'm going to include a snapshot with additional markings of a NOAA map of these boundaries.  The question is: which boundary are they following?  If it is "50 to 20 miles off the coast" or the territorial sea (shore-side white line) or the contiguous zone (to the right of the territorial sea line),  then the red oval below Rhode Island (with Paragon City's approximate location as a blue dot), is the location, which is what I suspect the OG development team intended.  However that places the Rogues still well within US control as the Contiguous line is 24 miles off the coaster, therefore overlapping.  Not to mention the protected EEZ, or even possibly the islands own territorial waters, assuming such is recognized by any nation at all.

 

Now the wiki reference also notes the Rogue Islands are "NW of Bermuda", here circled in yellow, with a north-south line in yellow.  If we can abandon the "50 to 20 miles off the coast" blatant violation of US control, and we can push the understanding of northwest to be anything west of due north, we have an interesting scenario.  In the real world is an underwater mountain chain, the westernmost ones in the red circle to your right.  These potentially can fall outside of US jurisdiction, and furthermore, the EEZ might be diminished in the same way Canada and the US agreed to a reduced EEZ for each (seen in NOAA's dotted red line.   If in the fictional world these underwater mountains were raised high enough to create islands, you'd have a chain capable of becoming the Rogues.

 

Just something to think about.  Nothing to fight hard over.  😊  I'm aware several here have a maritime history, and maybe there are those with experience that overlaps this discussion.  I'm happy to be politely corrected if I have any of the real world details wrong.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 7 by Techwright

[Greycat]

The "NE of Bermuda" always seemed the most fitting, and I'm not sure why the others were considered even, given the "history" of the Isles.

 

Then again, none of them really fit the "And we can land troops in a major US city and not be nuked" status...

[gameboy1234]

I always felt that Lord Recluse was channeling Dr. Doom as a ruler of his own country.  The "not be nuked" part is limited by similar real world concerns.  Civilian population, fallout on neighbors, a "no first strike" policy most countries adopt.

 

Longbow has "invaded" the Rogues Isles, that's a pretty real world response.  They're pretty prominent now in both Mercy and also they have a permanent base in the Nerva islands.  In the real-real world that would be the Marine Corps, in a comic book world it's super-people, but it's all basically the same idea.  The US/UN has responded to Lord Recluse and Arachnos, and they're attempting a proportionate response.

 

What I think the Rogues Isles really needs is more superheroes.  Folks should be sent there for missions.  There would be more population as a result, and content would be available to more folks.  Some folks want to stay super heroes, not vigilantes or rogues, and they should be allowed to still go there without having to switch sides.  That's my 2 cents.  Any sort of thing could be done, even adding new islands that aren't controlled by Arachnos for super heroes to use as a base, if they don't want to stay in RI proper, and maybe for roleplay reasons, like trainers and vendors.

 

[gameboy1234]

I got curious and took a look for Bermuda.  It's way the heck out there in the Atlantic, and much further from the Caribbean than I thought.  There's also jack all out there, and Bermuda itself is super small and basically just one island, there's no natural island chain or anything.  Not a big deal, I was just surprised by it's actual location and geography.  Here's Bermuda's location on a map if you want to see yourself.  If it were me I'd probably move RI to the Caribbean, more fun and interesting stuff there imo.

 

[Shenanigunner]

Yes, Bermuda simply isn't where most people think it is — way the hell out from any other land and much further north. Always good for bar bets and the like.

 

I like the idea that the Rogue Isles are those underwater mounts in a different universe.

[Moonscribe]

The recent-ish Dr. Stribbling arc tries to make sense of the "50 miles" version by saying it means 50 miles outside of the EEZ, not literally off the coast:

 

"It's not very far to the Rogue Isles, Character. Only about 250 miles from Paragon City; or 50 miles outside of the United States' exclusive economic zone. It's unlikely that you'll be able to catch up to a ship before they arrive." -- Dr. Stribbling

[Scarlet Shocker]

It's Scotland.

 

What they didn't say is that in this alternate world, the Atlantic ocean is very very small and the Americas haven't really divorced themselves from Eurasia

 

[cranebump]

So, rather than Longbow, we need to send in Longshanks.:-)

 

 

Edited August 7 by cranebump

[Snarky]

3 hours ago, gameboy1234 said:

Longbow has "invaded" the Rogues Isles, that's a pretty real world response.  They're pretty prominent now in both Mercy and also they have a permanent base in the Nerva islands.  In the real-real world that would be the Marine Corps, in a comic book world it's super-people, but it's all basically the same idea. 

this struck me as incredibly on point.  The USMC (Uncle Sugar's Misguided Children) has been a fanatical force since they were formed.  Although they have a long American history as an organized and trained military force this is not what scares the shit out of anyone that faces them.  They are not the Green Berets, or Navy Seals.  In some wars they are largely draftees (Vietnam,,,,)  What the USMC has is a history of acting like a Honey Badger in any fight they get in.  Both individually and as complete units there are countless tales of an overwhelmed marine (or marine unit) just digging in and fighting against truly stupid odds.  And sometimes they succeed, sometimes they succeed but with heavy casualties, and sometimes they get their asses handed to them.  But whoever they fought.... they never seem to want to face Marines in combat again.

 

Longbow are an extreme force of fanatics.  They are not some UN police force.  From the lowly rifleman to the Ballista these F-ers are a fight you know you need to bring your A game to.  Now that you have compared them to Marines I believe it is time for me to explore A Longbow toon.  Thoughts are already dancing.  Sentinel....?

 

 

[High_Beam]

Avoid the Yellow Legs.

 

Also in my head canon, I have always placed the Rogue Isles right around that point of the SEZ where @Techwright notes with the raised land masses as well as the Rogue Isles being remnants of Oranbega before they sank it.  I consider the land of Mu (remember they west across the sea west to Oranbega), to be the Azores.

[Scarlet Shocker]

1 hour ago, cranebump said:

So, rather than Longbow, we need to send in Longshanks.:-)

 

 

 

Well we did play on Freedom for quite some time and history proved they couldn't take it!

[cranebump]

1 minute ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

Well we did play on Freedom for quite some time and history proved they couldn't take it!

I was going to say...:-)

[Techwright]

5 hours ago, Moonscribe said:

The recent-ish Dr. Stribbling arc tries to make sense of the "50 miles" version by saying it means 50 miles outside of the EEZ, not literally off the coast:

 

"It's not very far to the Rogue Isles, Character. Only about 250 miles from Paragon City; or 50 miles outside of the United States' exclusive economic zone. It's unlikely that you'll be able to catch up to a ship before they arrive." -- Dr. Stribbling

Thanks so much for pointing that out.  I've not done a Dr. Stribbling arc, at least that I can recall, and that's good information.  That suggests a partial correction.  Now we just need to get rid of the "NW of Bermuda" bit.  Personally, though I placed a circle around the underwater mountains N-NW of Bermuda, I'd prefer to have much of the larger chain to the NE.

 

 

 

Edited August 7 by Techwright

[Greycat]

6 hours ago, gameboy1234 said:

I always felt that Lord Recluse was channeling Dr. Doom as a ruler of his own country.  The "not be nuked" part is limited by similar real world concerns.  Civilian population, fallout on neighbors, a "no first strike" policy most countries adopt.

 

Longbow has "invaded" the Rogues Isles, that's a pretty real world response.  They're pretty prominent now in both Mercy and also they have a permanent base in the Nerva islands.  In the real-real world that would be the Marine Corps, in a comic book world it's super-people, but it's all basically the same idea.  The US/UN has responded to Lord Recluse and Arachnos, and they're attempting a proportionate response.

 

 

See, to me Longbow being there intitially - in a very limited fashion - seems like the "proportionate response" to a nation breaking out and bankrolling criminals.

 

The place this falls apart to me is that Longbow isn't a nation's armed forces... and yet the recognized police/military force of this (honestly) dinky little group of islands *has* invaded another nation. If Cuba decided to take over Miami (which, aside from super-powered-ness, is probably the closest we could find to an analogue,) and the US decided "Meh, that's ok, they can stand around there and threaten and murder civilians and destroy property, it's fine, let some unofficial mercenaries stand around in Havana," there'd be a nationwide "WTF, Washington?"

 

Besides, the military would have to have metahumans, as well - and some things specifically should trigger a military response.

 

But that's me.

[Techwright]

28 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

See, to me Longbow being there intitially - in a very limited fashion - seems like the "proportionate response" to a nation breaking out and bankrolling criminals.

 

The place this falls apart to me is that Longbow isn't a nation's armed forces... and yet the recognized police/military force of this (honestly) dinky little group of islands *has* invaded another nation. If Cuba decided to take over Miami (which, aside from super-powered-ness, is probably the closest we could find to an analogue,) and the US decided "Meh, that's ok, they can stand around there and threaten and murder civilians and destroy property, it's fine, let some unofficial mercenaries stand around in Havana," there'd be a nationwide "WTF, Washington?"

 

Besides, the military would have to have metahumans, as well - and some things specifically should trigger a military response.

 

But that's me.

 

Yeah, that's always been a sticking point to me.  Do we have any canon statement that the Rogue Islands are recognized as sovereign, even by a limited number of countries?  Without that, they're pretty much fair game: the strongest holds them. 

 

As to why we don't flush them clean using supers, Paragon City is the prime example: supers are stretched too thin.  There's the ongoing Rikti conflict, Galaxy City takeover, Nemesis invasions, zombie invasions, powered gangs of all kind, nightmarish groups of all kinds, especially Mot and its forces as well as Hami and his forces.  We're holding the line, but progress comes in small victories like taking down Dr. Vahzilok.

[Greycat]

12 minutes ago, Techwright said:

 

Yeah, that's always been a sticking point to me.  Do we have any canon statement that the Rogue Islands are recognized as sovereign, even by a limited number of countries?  Without that, they're pretty much fair game: the strongest holds them.

 

 

I *want* to say yes to that, but can't recall specifically. They did, after all, have a legitimate government pre-Arachnos.

[huang3721]

38 minutes ago, Techwright said:
Do we have any canon statement that the Rogue Islands are recognized as sovereign, even by a limited number of countries?
There is a historical monument in Warburg about an extortive 'treaty' with Paragon City in 1982. However, the treaty is between Rogue Isles and Paragon City (instead of the US and the Arachnos nation, for example), which means the conflict is probably domestic in nature. The UN probably acted as a mediator of some kind.

I believe that's why neither the UN nor NATO could intervene in the conflict, and the US doesn't want to escalate the conflict and risk a civil war. 

However, my headcanon falls apart in Dimitry's arc. No way the Russian Federation let its forces enter a disputed territory like that under any circumstances unless they want to provoke war with the US. 

Edited August 8 by huang3721
I hate my phone :(

[Darmian]

Now, this is down to the historical nature of superhero comics and so on, centered around cities whether real analogues or entirely fictional, Spiderman's New York, Metropolis etc, BUT...the odd one in the Paragon City/Rogue Isles relationship is actually Paragon City.  The game treats it as an entity in itself, functionally separate it seems from the rest of the US. So, within that context (and how the hell that works is anyone's guess) the relationship between the two nations is understandable.

 

 

In a real world parallel the Etoiles/Rogue Isles is obviously supervillain Cuba, just further north.  

Reasons why the US hasn't invaded? 

(a) Recluse has nukes and the US is pretty sure that a lot of his tech not to mention his troops would survive a tactical nuke attack on them.¹

(b) It's too damn close to the US to use nukes on (for those less hawkish). And thanks to (a) above, Recluse might just nuke the mainland US and not care.

(c) Recluse took over in 1964. Cold War at its height.  And whatever Recluse is, he isn't a communist. Or at least what was perceived to be a communist then. I'd lay money on someone in government being deluded enough to think they could somehow buy him/bribe him, like Marchand before him.

(d) How much frankly illegal stuff gets done there by US black ops?  Stuff that simply couldn't be done on US soil.

(e) And again that old chestnut, follow the money.  How many senators/congress members/etc are in Arachnos' pocket and simply look the other way/vote in a certain way/etc etc.

 

^{1. Warburg has the nukes?  No, Warburg has the nukes we KNOW about,  And it's a convenient fiction that the entire Rogue Arachnos branch isn't even in on to allow Recluse deniability.} 

 

[Jiro Ito]

That's funny, I always imagined them to be in the south Caribbean, amongst the French-speaking islands, due to a lot of the French history and influence we see in the Rogue Isles in the game.

 

 

[gameboy1234]

6 minutes ago, Jiro Ito said:

That's funny, I always imagined them to be in the south Caribbean, amongst the French-speaking islands, due to a lot of the French history and influence we see in the Rogue Isles in the game.

 

That was my impression also.  There was a lot of Francophone and Caribbean influence in a lot of the stories and background.  Which is why I think we should just give up and retcon it and say it was always in the Caribbean, nope islands don't just move around, why do you ask, Dr Aeon is too busy to talk about it.

 

[Scarlet Shocker]

4 hours ago, gameboy1234 said:

 

That was my impression also.  There was a lot of Francophone and Caribbean influence in a lot of the stories and background.  Which is why I think we should just give up and retcon it and say it was always in the Caribbean, nope islands don't just move around, why do you ask, Dr Aeon is too busy to talk about it.

 

 

Their history does suggest a lot of Caribbean historical influence with lots of pirates and anarchic doings in the 17th century but the geography doesn't quite fit sadly.

 

It does make me wonder if the world in which Paragon is set is the same as our own. The only maps I've ever seen are the zones and the wider city map. (I used to have the one that came in the box on my wall.)

 

Given the history of Paragon it's a safe bet it's in an alternate universe and so we can make up the geography as we wish, so the Caribbean is probably mid-Atlantic with the Rogue Isles being the most prominent in a significant archipelago

[Spaghetti Betty]

I think the Rogue Islands might be located here!

[Scarlet Shocker]

4 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

I think the Rogue Islands might be located here!

Presumably the Rouge Isles will be on the planet to the immediate left of the one arrowed.

[JasperStone]

[Frostbiter]

20 hours ago, Snarky said:

this struck me as incredibly on point.  The USMC (Uncle Sugar's Misguided Children) has been a fanatical force since they were formed.  Although they have a long American history as an organized and trained military force this is not what scares the shit out of anyone that faces them.  They are not the Green Berets, or Navy Seals.  In some wars they are largely draftees (Vietnam,,,,)  What the USMC has is a history of acting like a Honey Badger in any fight they get in.  Both individually and as complete units there are countless tales of an overwhelmed marine (or marine unit) just digging in and fighting against truly stupid odds.  And sometimes they succeed, sometimes they succeed but with heavy casualties, and sometimes they get their asses handed to them.  But whoever they fought.... they never seem to want to face Marines in combat again.

 

Longbow are an extreme force of fanatics.  They are not some UN police force.  From the lowly rifleman to the Ballista these F-ers are a fight you know you need to bring your A game to.  Now that you have compared them to Marines I believe it is time for me to explore A Longbow toon.  Thoughts are already dancing.  Sentinel....?

 

 

 

 

"A serious problem in planning against American doctrine is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine.”

– Soviet observation during the Cold War

 

 

 

Edited August 8 by Frostbiter