For those who don't play Redside - why not?

[Papaschtroumpf]

So I decided to take a patron pool on a couple of my heroes this week so I talked to the gills and went red side on several characters. I forgot how an outing it can be to get around the rogue isles, especially on a super speeder. More angles and stuff to get caught into (like those darn torches on Oranbega blue side). But much more vertical movement. For awhile couldn't find the SG base in Grandville, because it's high up on a roof. Yes you can use jetpacks and whatever, but I never have to worry about that blue side.

[Clave Dark 5]

And yet I have been very frustrated in King's Row trying to get to a mission sans jet pack that happened to be up on one of those elevated sections of the city that was higher than I could jump, and got killed twice trying to zip around with Ninja Run/Sprint fining a way up.  And then there's the Hollows of Old too.  These sorts of time-wasters are still in the game on both sides.  My main back in the day was a Super Speeder on redside and learning where those doors are must have bee easy enough as a I don't remember being upset about that task.

 

All that said, pretty much every damn toon I make these days takes flight/

[Rejolt]

Population - at the start it's crazy high on Homecoming and I'm just riding the wave. 

Also, I'm re-Living my  hero days with the game back. I'm just going in order of what I did on live - a few months of heroes that lead to several weeks of Redside characters then eventually starting Loyalists and Resistance in gold side. I'm planning on being here a bit so no rush.

[Golden Azrael]

Why not?

It's not in my nature to be a villain. 😉  That's why not.

I've done the patrons twice and helped by duo partner get their patron once.  Each time?  I held my nose.  It just doesn't feel right.

CoV, for me, is the massive 'side step' that killed CoH and torpedo'd its initial momentum.  And 'Going Rogue' just compounded that.

Instead of taking the main game, the power sets, the interior mission tiles, the early game repetition, end game content with a nice Moon Base forwards?

We got two repeats of the same thing.  Duplication.

'CoV' could have been done with PvP in the 'red trams' districts (it's on each COH zone map....) where life is harder in those zones for heroes.  So if you went into those red trams?  Expect villains guarding mission entrances...pvp engaged.  CoV gameplay could have been made more geared towards hindering CoH heroes in game.  It would have required some innovative thought to level.  Instead we got CoH dressed up in?

 

The worst design in the game.  With the New Gods Apocalypse done real badly design.  The design in the Arachnos style maps is so bad.  Dowdy.  Dull.  Drab.  Uninspired.  Poor, poor design.  

 

And the maps.  Drab.  Dull.  Dowdy.  (I said that already....)  All that work to create a whole 'nuther Paragon City which could have gone into giving CoH what it really needed.

A progressive game engine to update the graphics going forwards.  

New Maps for CoH.

New interior maps.

New game content at the beginning, middle and end of the game.

 

instead of trying to do all that for two 'different' games which was unsustainable.

 

The best thing that came out of CoV?

 

The Archetypes.  Which, in many ways, eclipsed the design originals of CoH.  Eg.  The 'fury' mechanism on Brutes to increase damage for 'tanks' (sorry) 'Brutes.'  It was clearly originally meant for tanks until Cryptic changed direction.

 

It was  a direction that stalled COH's development into a holding pattern and gave CoV a short lived boost until people realised?

 

it was the same simply but well loved ham burger of the game.

 

All the effort of CoV and Rogue should have gone into extending the base game.  Instead it drained the core game of any chance of really going forwards.

 

That said, Cryptic did well to get the game to 'almost' 24 issues.  With new zones.  New power.  New stories.

 

The incarnate system.  A nestled table hell grind system.  Why not just use the normal pick up and play interface and give us super epics with normal slots sitting nicely under Epics...?

 

So, why don't I like CoV?  I'm not a villain.  Everyday, I want to be a better person.  CoV doesn't jive with that.  It's hard enough to combat the darkness in our souls without adding to it.

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

...and my favourite Type, the 'Dominator' came from CoV.

ironically.

Azrael.

[PaxArcana]

35 minutes ago, Golden Azrael said:

'CoV' could have been done with PvP

You know, not all of us who play Villains - not even those of us who peferentially play Villains - have any desire whatsoever to engage in PvP.

 

In fact, I personally find PvP to be the absolute polar opposite of fun, 99.9999999% of the time.  I actively avoid PvP in almost every game I ever play.  It makes me feel literally sick - nauseous and worse - after a very, very short while.

 

Quote

It's hard enough to combat the darkness in our souls without adding to it.

Denying that dark side doesn't work for everyone.  I, for one, need a safe outlet to let it out to go play - a way to purge myself of all the negative emotions and impulses I am constantly plagued with.  (Just to be clear: most of them are also directed AT myself, not externally.)  It's helpful for my mental health to let that dark side out to romp and play somewhere absolutely and completely safe: in a game.  In make-believe.  Where no-one really gets hurt ... especially, my own self.

Edited July 24, 2019 by PaxArcana

[Golden Azrael]

'You know' I don't like PVP.  I think it sucks.

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

I don't like CoV either.  I think it sucks.

But the archetypes are the best thing to come out of it.

There.  That's more succinct.

Azrael.

[PaxArcana]

Hey, I'm just trying to point out that you shouldn't be assuming all villains would be happy if the CoV side of the game had been limited to only PvP.  Honestly, I'd've unsubscribed (and stopped giving NCSoft my money) a lot sooner without CoV; it was the Mastermind AT that kept me here for a couple more _years_.  

Edited July 24, 2019 by PaxArcana

[AkuTenshiiZero]

16 minutes ago, Golden Azrael said:

I don't like CoV either.  I think it sucks.

But the archetypes are the best thing to come out of it.

There.  That's more succinct.

Azrael.

Which kind of brings up an issue I have with latter-day CoX: The alignment system was kind of a mistake.  Everyone whines about the Rogue Isles and/or villain missions, this was always the case even back on live.  But people also really liked the villain ATs, so if they wanted to play a Mastermind they had to take CoV with it.  Even after Going Rogue, there was already as strong villain base.

 

That is not the case anymore.  Many people here are newcomers, they don't really know the difference between hero and villain ATs, they just see a long list of classes and they heard that blueside is where all the farming is.  It's kind of self-evident with the enormous number of Masterminds, Stalkers, and Brutes in LFG looking for hero teams that people only care about the ATs, not the Rogue Isles, the storylines, or even the idea of RPing a villain.  And for a guy like me whose first home was the Rogue Isles, someone who just loves being the bad guy, someone who has 9 villain ideas for every one hero idea, that is more than a little depressing.

 

I mean, hell, if people are just gonna spam DFB all day, we have DFB on redside, too.

Edited July 24, 2019 by AkuTenshiiZero

[Apparition]

The Going Rogue alignment system is great.  I agree that red side has the better zones and missions, but many of my friends only play blue side.  Some even refuse to go red side as a Vigilante.  This way I at least get to play with them on a Brute or Corruptor.

[Golden Azrael]

18 minutes ago, AkuTenshiiZero said:

Which kind of brings up an issue I have with latter-day CoX: The alignment system was kind of a mistake.  Everyone whines about the Rogue Isles and/or villain missions, this was always the case even back on live.  But people also really liked the villain ATs, so if they wanted to play a Mastermind they had to take CoV with it.  Even after Going Rogue, there was already as strong villain base.

 

That is not the case anymore.  Many people here are newcomers, they don't really know the difference between hero and villain ATs, they just see a long list of classes and they heard that blueside is where all the farming is.  It's kind of self-evident with the enormous number of Masterminds, Stalkers, and Brutes in LFG looking for hero teams that people only care about the ATs, not the Rogue Isles, the storylines, or even the idea of RPing a villain.  And for a guy like me whose first home was the Rogue Isles, someone who just loves being the bad guy, someone who has 9 villain ideas for every one hero idea, that is more than a little depressing.

 

I mean, hell, if people are just gonna spam DFB all day, we have DFB on redside, too.

Strangely, I found the alignment system quite clever.  I liked that.

Just felt CoV was badly implemented.  It forced the studio into duplication of dev' effort that hurt the base game's progress.

Whether I like CoV or Rogue or not.  Those are two big dollops of investment and effort.  I'd have liked to have seen that go into he base game and introduce the 'Villain' aspect in a 'different' way.

Instead we got 'bad guy dilute' in a badly designed setting which eventually became a ghost town.

The Archetypes were great, though.  they nailed those.

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

4 minutes ago, Apparition said:

The Going Rogue alignment system is great.  I agree that red side has the better zones and missions, but many of my friends only play blue side.  Some even refuse to go red side as a Vigilante.  This way I at least get to play with them on a Brute or Corruptor.

I find CoH very memorable.  (And it's still popular judging by these servers.)  I wouldn't touch red side with a barge pole.  Very forgettable and bland.

But Brutes, Corruptors...the 'types' very well designed.  Got to give it that.  ('Dom' is my personable fav' of the CoV types.)

Azrael.

[Apparition]

Blue side has way too many forgettable and bland zones.  Skyway, Boomtown, Striga Isle, Bricktown, Crey's Folly, Perez Park, the Hollows... 

 

Red side keeps it nice and tight with only a few zones, all well designed. 

 

YMMV. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Apparition

[chase]

Preference toward good, but Time, mostly.

I have many favorites I want to revisit and new things to create and the majority of them trend blue.   Most of my redside characters were the kind of "almost hero" characters.  They were either renegades "fighting the good fight" against overwhelming odds villainside or "pretty good" people with one life choice/circumstance that put them on the wrong side of the law.    Like several noted here, the "villainous" tone of some of the missions made the me hold my nose through the story or retcon it away in various ways, but that doesn't keep me from redside.

Time does.   
I don't powerlevel. I don't AE except for good stories to experience.   I mostly duo with my wife, so no big-team XP.  I've been playing since this opened and just finally got my main to incarnate. 

I do alt alot, so eventually I'll be on redside, but since I duo mostly, that won't change much for those not finding others to team with.

[MyriVerse]

39 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Blue side has way too many forgettable and bland zones.  Skyway, Boomtown, Striga Isle, Bricktown, Crey's Folly, Perez Park, the Hollows... 

 

Red side keeps it nice and tight with only a few zones, all well designed. 

 

YMMV. 

"Bland and forgettable" are not what I would call any of those zones. They were thoroughly unique and iconic. Atlas and Steel Canyon are much more forgettable. IP, while not forgettable, was far too large.

[Clave Dark 5]

14 hours ago, Golden Azrael said:

Just felt CoV was badly implemented.  It forced the studio into duplication of dev' effort that hurt the base game's progress.

I think that might be a bit of 20/20 hindsight, as at the time I would have thought it was more of a "we have a popular game on our hands, let's make a sequel to it using a lot of our pre-existing material, so we don't have to spend time developing all new stuff for it."  You can look back NOW, after they merged the two things into one and say they should have gone in another direction (as we always did when we lamented them wasting time on creating the AE, an archetype we didn't like, post-50 grinding, you name it), but I'm not sure that's historically accurate to say about CoV.  Maybe I'm wrong.

[VanguardXL]

As has been said, I didn't buy it to play "City of Henchmen".

Adding to that, playing it on Virtue was an exercise in watching VG after VG collapse in on themselves, not for lack of players, but that villains don't work or play well together. Someone has to be in charge, and nobody wants to take orders. Not to mention you always get two or three of lunatic characters trying to be the Joker with the serial numbers filed off, but only succeeded in being "lolsorandom" and working against anything trying to be done, simply to watch it all burn.

I've seen a few, a bare handful, of exceptions, but by and large being a villain means either you're a henchmen, or you're a mastermind that is trying to ride herd on psychotic cats. Villainy just isn't set up for group play in RP.

[AkuTenshiiZero]

2 hours ago, VanguardXL said:

As has been said, I didn't buy it to play "City of Henchmen".

I guess that can be a problem, but the thing is that the culmination of your 40-ish levels of being a lackey is that you work for the top villains of Arachnos, then hand in the mother of all resignations.  Every Patron arc involves you kicking your patron's teeth in, then taking on Lord Recluse in the future and handing present-day Recluse his busted helmet just to prove a point.  Yeah, taking orders from some schmuck in the mid-levels might feel pretty lame, but there is a much more satisfying reward at the end.  Back in live when I finally got my main to 50 (On Virtue, no less) I realized my villain had become respected and/or feared through the Rogue Isles.  It's very satisfying.  I guess my point is that the difference between CoH and CoV is that the latter has a far more steep climb to the top of the proverbial food chain, whereas in the former I really didn't feel any more important to the world at 50 than I did at 1.

 

Besides, it's not as if there is a lack of evil to be done on your own.  Between papers missions and tips, there are many opportunities to just go be a bad guy of your own volition.  Yes, running through a warehouse and clicking a safe isn't exactly the most epic of schemes, but you're not acting as someone's lackey.  Also, let's not forget what I consider the crown jewel of playing redside: Mayhems.  I don't think there is any argument that can go against Mayhems being way more fun than Safeguards.

[Yoru-hime]

I don't completely avoid redside, but it's definitely my exception, rather than the rule. The chaotic and frequently blocked streets make getting around early a pain and for the most part, the zones are just plain ugly, but I think the writing is the big thing that convinces me not to bother.

 

To be fair, though, writing villains is HARD. It's hard to write a single villain and it's even harder trying to write stories that are going to appeal to villains in general. Heroes share a theme in that they generally want to help people, but villains have all sorts of goals, not just reversing that into "hurt people". Sure, there are some sadists who are just out to do damage and make babies cry, but for the most part, a villain simply doesn't care who gets hurt in their pursuit of something. Be that conquest, personal power, revenge, knowledge, wealth, amusement or whatever. Trying to write a story that makes ALL those villains feel like they're nearing their goals (and not just being a flunky or a patsy) is just about impossible.

 

The writing got a lot better with the later arcs, but a lot of the initial CoV release arcs were very City of Minions.

[Pale_Enchantress]

I adore redside. I played it exclusively for years before CoX got shut down.  I don't like hero side much. Villain side is done much better. Unfortunately I'm playing almosy only blue now because red side has a serious population issue and I enjoy teaming. 

[honoroit]

Planetside did this well, it'd grant xp buffs to underpopulated of the three factions. 

 

If there was scaled xp / inf buffs based on red blue pop balance, all of a sudden you'd be running mayhem missions and casino heists, with full teams in Grandville. 

[MyriVerse]

40 minutes ago, AkuTenshiiZero said:

I guess that can be a problem, but the thing is that the culmination of your 40-ish levels of being a lackey is that you work for the top villains of Arachnos, then hand in the mother of all resignations.  Every Patron arc involves you kicking your patron's teeth in, then taking on Lord Recluse in the future and handing present-day Recluse his busted helmet just to prove a point.  Yeah, taking orders from some schmuck in the mid-levels might feel pretty lame, but there is a much more satisfying reward at the end.  Back in live when I finally got my main to 50 (On Virtue, no less) I realized my villain had become respected and/or feared through the Rogue Isles.  It's very satisfying.  I guess my point is that the difference between CoH and CoV is that the latter has a far more steep climb to the top of the proverbial food chain, whereas in the former I really didn't feel any more important to the world at 50 than I did at 1.

 

Besides, it's not as if there is a lack of evil to be done on your own.  Between papers missions and tips, there are many opportunities to just go be a bad guy of your own volition.  Yes, running through a warehouse and clicking a safe isn't exactly the most epic of schemes, but you're not acting as someone's lackey.  Also, let's not forget what I consider the crown jewel of playing redside: Mayhems.  I don't think there is any argument that can go against Mayhems being way more fun than Safeguards.

It's all very stifling.

[AkuTenshiiZero]

16 minutes ago, honoroit said:

Planetside did this well, it'd grant xp buffs to underpopulated of the three factions. 

 

If there was scaled xp / inf buffs based on red blue pop balance, all of a sudden you'd be running mayhem missions and casino heists, with full teams in Grandville. 

They did this in Allods Online as well, and I suggested it here a couple weeks ago.  Adding this kind of thing to CoX would probably solve the problem.  Watch all those farmers flood to the other side.  Of course, it would also be absolutely imperative that Null lose the alignment change option, which I never agreed with him having to begin with.

[Yoru-hime]

1 hour ago, AkuTenshiiZero said:

I guess that can be a problem, but the thing is that the culmination of your 40-ish levels of being a lackey is that you work for the top villains of Arachnos, then hand in the mother of all resignations.  Every Patron arc involves you kicking your patron's teeth in, then taking on Lord Recluse in the future and handing present-day Recluse his busted helmet just to prove a point.  Yeah, taking orders from some schmuck in the mid-levels might feel pretty lame, but there is a much more satisfying reward at the end.  Back in live when I finally got my main to 50 (On Virtue, no less) I realized my villain had become respected and/or feared through the Rogue Isles.  It's very satisfying.  I guess my point is that the difference between CoH and CoV is that the latter has a far more steep climb to the top of the proverbial food chain, whereas in the former I really didn't feel any more important to the world at 50 than I did at 1.

 

Besides, it's not as if there is a lack of evil to be done on your own.  Between papers missions and tips, there are many opportunities to just go be a bad guy of your own volition.  Yes, running through a warehouse and clicking a safe isn't exactly the most epic of schemes, but you're not acting as someone's lackey.  Also, let's not forget what I consider the crown jewel of playing redside: Mayhems.  I don't think there is any argument that can go against Mayhems being way more fun than Safeguards.

I tend to play very mercenary villains, so I do run a lot of paper missions, but they end up feeling kinda hollow after a while. I loved Brother Hammond's arc though. Clever, ruthless, and not written as someone else's idea. Your character is the one that thinks: "These unwashed morons aren't generally worth my time, but they sure are gullible. I wonder if they'd be useful..." and builds out a plan of your own from there. The souvenir at the end is just priceless. It's just too bad that things wound down when they did because the writers were really just starting to get a feel for how to write a real and independent villain.

 

I do love Mayhem missions. Not just for the gratuitous joy of vandalism, but because I go in, rob a bank and walk away with something to show for it. When I'm redside, it's all about profit margin.

Edited July 25, 2019 by paradoxtxs
typos