For those who don't play Redside - why not?

[Legree]

So I'm spinning this off from a topic in Suggestions about incentivising players to visit the Rogue Isles more often, because it occurred to me that while there's a lot of conjecture it's still not entirely clear exactly why some don't.

 

I'm not looking to start a debate on which side is best - just satisfy my own curiosity and maybe shed some light on why the divide is as large as it is.  I've always divided my time (somewhat unevenly) between the Rogue Isles and Paragon City, as I assumed many people did.  In a game a alt-friendly as this it never occurred to me that people would avoid all the content on redside, but apparently this is a thing that happens.

 

The Poll options aren't exhaustive, of course, but I've tried to list the most common points I've seen made about villain content over the years.

 

So if you don't play Redside - why not?  If you do, but rarely - what stops you playing it more?

 

[ed_anger]

I'd pick all of them except morality.

 

And I go redside to do specific content, but switch back as soon as I'm done, as it's a pain to find groups etc.

[jack_nomind]

Morality's a factor in a way, but how about, "I don't want to be one of the bad guys' legbreakers."

 

I love the Praetorian content because even though it's almost always clear who's giving my character orders, I feel like I have a lot of agency in interpreting them.  Some of the redside content tries to do this with optional objectives, and I appreciate that, but I still end up in a lot of situations where I feel like I'm playing a mook hitting random strangers for cash.

 

Most villains are the heroes of their own story, they're just 'driven to it' because 'nobody understands.'  I'd love to be a bank robber, a mad scientist, or a superspy.  I'd love to be a robin hood, someone who really is hitting strangers for cash but doing it to e.g. fund an orphanage or w/e.  I'd love to be one of the assassins in a John Wick universe.

 

I don't want to be Leg Breaker #6791.  I play Praetorian content solo, where the NPCs are literally telling me I am just a mook with a number but then the story makes me feel like I'm not, and that's fine.  Redside tells me I'm a super-being who is treated as a credible resource or threat by others, but makes me feel like I'm an interchangeable mook, and that's... obnoxious.

[DSorrow]

I just don't find it as engaging, really. The atmosphere of the zones isn't something I'm a fan of either, but mostly it's the lack of grand villainy: in most of the story lines I'm just running errands for another villain rather than building up my personal story. The same structure that works for heroes (NPC A has problem with villain group B, I investigate and deal with it) just doesn't fit what I'd like to do as a villain.

[Sura]

Like I posted in the other thread; I play Vigilante and spend my time on the blue side (I like hero side better), but Vigilante allows me to cruise on over to red side and group without worrying about swapping alignments.  If the good opportunities are red side, I grab them.  If they're blue side, I grab them.  Vigilante and Rogue alignments allow players to play on both sides without changing alignments.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

I picked morality but that's not entirely accurate. A more accurate explanation would be "most of the characters I want to make are heroes". I don't mind taking my heroes redside briefly to pick up an accolade or unlock patron pools if necessary but at the end of the day they are heroes and paragon city is where they hang out.

 

I'm willing to make villains but it's rare for me to find a concept and powerset that makes me go "oh this guy should be a villain". I probably will roll up a crab spider at some point and I'll be keeping him redside but I don't have any other villain characters on my immediate radar.

[Heraclea]

Variety is a part of it.  Reduced ability to choose preferred content is bigger; this is even a larger issue with Praetorian content.  I levelled there once, no wish to return.

 

Redside gives you level 30 Carnies.  Redside gives you kinetic Tsoos.  Redside gives you Consiglieres.  It's harder to find a team there because these mobs are basically solo only; fill a mission with them and it saps the fun right out of the game.  (As I said, goldside is even worse; that stuff appears to be entirely solo-only.)  When they were redside only, all of my masterminds came to grief once they hit Sharkhead.  The zone was inescapable, and levelling a MM through one Scrapyarder mission after another was no fun at all.  I may actually get interested in one now that they don't have to go there.

 

Blueside, if you don't want to fight Clockwork or Vahzikok or Carnies or Malta or Vanguard or Arachnos or Longbow you never have to.  You can go from 1 to 50 without facing any of those mobs quite easily.  I may make one of my heroes a villain for a while after they've levelled and I have a big roster of 50s.  But really, I have no desire to level a character there. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

I'd pick all of them except morality.

 

And I go redside to do specific content, but switch back as soon as I'm done, as it's a pain to find groups etc.

Yup

[_NOPE_]

Should have allowed for multiple selections...

[Legree]

Morality's a factor in a way, but how about, "I don't want to be one of the bad guys' legbreakers."

 

If I'd added a 6th option this would have been it, but I wanted to avoid an excess of options.

 

It's not something that bothers me personally.  Most of my villain concepts are formed to fit into the power structure of the Isles, and I do like the logic it runs by, with Recluse and Arachnos there as a justification for why the place doesn't descend into total anarchy.  Still, I won't deny that the writing does at times tie itself in knots trying to provide villains with at least the illusion of acting in their own interest rather than someone else's.

[Judasace]

Morality's a factor in a way, but how about, "I don't want to be one of the bad guys' legbreakers."

 

I love the Praetorian content because even though it's almost always clear who's giving my character orders, I feel like I have a lot of agency in interpreting them.  Some of the redside content tries to do this with optional objectives, and I appreciate that, but I still end up in a lot of situations where I feel like I'm playing a mook hitting random strangers for cash.

 

Most villains are the heroes of their own story, they're just 'driven to it' because 'nobody understands.'  I'd love to be a bank robber, a mad scientist, or a superspy.  I'd love to be a robin hood, someone who really is hitting strangers for cash but doing it to e.g. fund an orphanage or w/e.  I'd love to be one of the assassins in a John Wick universe.

 

I don't want to be Leg Breaker #6791.  I play Praetorian content solo, where the NPCs are literally telling me I am just a mook with a number but then the story makes me feel like I'm not, and that's fine.  Redside tells me I'm a super-being who is treated as a credible resource or threat by others, but makes me feel like I'm an interchangeable mook, and that's... obnoxious.

 

Totally agree about the nature of "villainy" red side. It feels like you're just swept along and forced to be a bad guy, but are jst a random thung or a villain with a heart of gold.

 

They really watered down the villainous content in order to appease the press and parents. The villainy red side is weak sauce. I want toi blow up buildings full of innocents and dangle young girls over woodchippers while her superhero boyfriend has to decide whether or not to save her or stop the bomb I've placed on a school bus.

 

Instead I'm some sort of malevolent bureaucrat, backstabbing other flunkies and trying to rise through the ranks so I can get a better evil cubicle.

[justicebeliever]

For me, the dream of CoH is being a hero, who helps people using superpowers.  And in CoH, even at the early levels, I feel like I am saving the city over and over again.  The NPC’s make me feel like I am already becoming a legend by level 20.

 

I tried CoV when it first launched and won't be going back.  First, I hate Arachnos maps that are so dark.  I can barely navigate and I am constanly tabbing for enemies so I don't just walk right into them.  I am made to feel like a stooge who is trying to get out of the stooge business.  And I’m just uncomfortable “hurting” innocent people.

 

I was part of that other suggestion thread and I am all for people playing redside, but for me, unless there was a big event, I won’t be going back, and even then, I wouldn't stay.

 

I picked morality...

[Legree]

When they were redside only, all of my masterminds came to grief once they hit Sharkhead.  The zone was inescapable, and levelling a MM through one Scrapyarder mission after another was no fun at all.

 

I've always considered Sharkhead - due to the Scrapyarders - a kind of purgatory that MMs have to go through for five levels until they ascend to the heaven of a full set of pets at level 26.

[Jeneki]

Variety (so much Longbow and Arachnos) is a big one when leveling multiple characters.  Got so sick of these when I played villains primarily.  Back in the live forums this was something I brought up in suggestion topics all the time.  I often suggested using the rogue portals around the isles to do more inter-dimensional stuff, as this would let you do "big-time villain things" without impacting the rest of the game world (For example, if your villain goal is human extinction, doing so in another dimension is plausible without ending the game).  Eventually we got cooperative zones, which were nice but didn't really address red-side specifically.

 

I'm ok with low population, as I like many of the stories and can take it slow and read them when soloing.  Same with gold side.

 

[Legree]

Should have allowed for multiple selections...

 

There are Defenders on Redside now.  You could be The Philotic Knightmare!

 

I mean you've already got the evil goatee...

[_NOPE_]

You could be The Philotic Knightmare!

 

I mean you've already got the evil goatee...

 

OMG WHY HAVE I NEVER THOUGHT OF THIS???!!!

 

+1 Inf

[Jaguaratron]

I do play redside and like to do all the missions but the arcs are very formulaic, theres less content and to stop people blowing through it there are way more kill alls which can be tedious, if Im wrecking a base and stealing all their stuff I shouldnt have to hunt down a guy hiding in a back office.

[denarchy7]

Lack of players, really.

 

I make plenty of rogue aligned toons, or evil themed toons, it's just the fact that the majority of players are on blueside and it's easier to find a team. I actually enjoy the redside mission content. It's where the task forces on redside fail. Just not much variety.

 

Blueside has far better TFs.

[Placta]

I don't like being the bad guy. Never have. I was lucky to get through an hour of redside without feeling like I needed to log off and take a shower. That's why I had 50s of every hero AT (back before GR, and yes, that includes PB/WS) before I got my first – and only, really, the dom was mostly blueside from about 35 on – redside 50.

 

Then came the Freedom revamp to redside's starting experience, and Lt. Harris' arc disgusted me so much that the prospect of taking any future villains I created through it made me swear off making any more, and I planned to take my other villains to full heroes (but most of them languished in the single-digit levels while I constantly rolled new heroes). I left my original red 50 as a rogue so I could keep the base I put effort into building, but that was about it. With Breakout, Kalinda, and Burke available again, I've rerolled the 2 characters whose stories involved Arachnos breaking them out of the Zig as villains, but one of those I did DFB and radios till 20, then tips to switch to hero, and the other I haven't done very much with.

 

I was a badger back in the day, so I periodically took my main redside to get the badges, but Lord, even the vigilante tips were a slog. Redside is one of the big hurdles for me to getting back into serious badging.

 

tl;dr: Not a fan of playing villains.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Placta
Rewording.

[Razia]

I don't like the dark zones, but I do like the Story arcs red side. But I don't enjoy playing the bad guy. My toons are all vigilante though, so I can play both sides.

[_NOPE_]

I relate this to one of my favorite quotes from the "Ender" book series by Orson Scott Card (where my namesake comes from):

 

"In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves."

 

https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/endersgame/quotes/page/2/

 

NOBODY, unless they are insane, can truly think of themselves as a "bad guy" and live with themselves on a day-to-day basis. Nobody sane can do that. Sure, we all have faults, and, being our own worst enemies, we know those faults well. But, we explain them away to ourselves most times, we justify those faults. We justify all of our own actions in order to make ourselves the hero of our own story.

 

Even the "villains" in CoX aren't REALLY villains. They all have their own personal motivations that make them the "heroes" of their own story - it's just that their morality goes against the "morality of the masses":

 

• The evil scientist who spend his time developing monstrosities ala Frakenstein in his basement, doesn't think he's a "bad guy". He's trying to be the New Prometheus (the subtitle of that original book, by the way), he thinks he's bringing the fire of knowledge to humanity. People see him as a bad guy, because the masses think the idea of "playing God" is immoral.
  
• Most "take over the world" villains don't think they are a "bad guy", they are taking over the world because they have a vision of the world. They think there's something wrong with the way the world works (or DOESN'T work, in this case), and they could FIX those problems if only they had the power over the world to do so. The masses think they are the bad guy, because the masses want their own democratic say in the way the world works, and don't want an autocrat/dictator deciding their lives for them.
  
• The "out for revenge" villains certainly don't think that they are the "bad guy". Someone has done a great wrong to them or to someone they care about, and they are out to provide "an eye for an eye", because they think that's what's fair, no matter the cost. They see themselves as agents of justice. The masses don't agree to this, because they put their faith into the system of law and order to see that justice is done, and going outside of that system is... anarchy.
  

 

And so on, and so on.... 90% of "villains" in most stories aren't REALLY evil - they just have a morality that conflicts with the "morality of the masses".

 

The other 10% "just want to watch the world burn", because they're just friggin' insane.

[Zolgar]

Morality's a factor in a way, but how about, "I don't want to be one of the bad guys' legbreakers."

 

THIS!

 

The way the game is designed, properly villainous content is really hard to do. You, as a villain, are almost always someone else's lackey all the way up to 50. Even when you're a borderline deific level entity, capable of wading through endless swaths of goons.. you're still doing someone else's dirty work.

[Shinobu]

 

Nobody thinks of themself as the bad guy... but bad guys certainly think of themselves.

 

 

[Justisaur]

Didn't vote, as I split my time much as you, but I'd play red 100% if it were easier to get teams.  Really I play my villains more a rogues, they're in it for the money and power, and most of the people they're beating up are either 'the man' or other villains so they all deserve it.  Mostly I just like to rob banks, it's like playing GTA.  I'd never act like that outside of a game.

 

Really I think they ought to get rid of the villain/hero thing, just make them another zone, and you could join anything anywhere.  I think that's the only way to save it.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

And so on, and so on.... 90% of "villains" in most stories aren't REALLY evil - they just have a morality that conflicts with the "morality of the masses".

Nobody thinks of themself as the bad guy... but bad guys certainly think of themselves.

This is a good way of looking at it. Back on live I only had one non-Arachnos villain, Jack Storm a Magic origin Pistols/Storm Corruptor. The basic character concept was that he was a private investigator who had gone off the slippery slope and fled Paragon City to avoid a murder charge. Basically he's who Harry Dresden might have become if not for his grandfather's influence (I was reading The Dresden Files at the time so that was a major influence for his powers, backstory and appearance).

 

But the general idea was that he wasn't a sadist, he regretted a lot of the actions he'd taken it's just that at the end of the day he put his own survival, freedom and happiness ahead of others.

 

When the game was shutting down someone (I think it might have been Arcanaville) posed an interesting question, the idea was that the shutdown of the game was the universe ending and the people of paragon city are using portals to evacuate to other dimensions, what do your characters do? In his case, I felt that he was ultimately redeemable and that when the shit hit the fan he would do the right thing. So he rounded up a bunch of civilians from the Grandville slums, shot his way into an Arachnos base, hijacked a sub and set off for Paragon City with them using his powers to shield and protect them until they reached one of the evacuation portals.