Build Guidelines

[TheMultiVitamin]

So after asking questions and trawling the forums like a gremlin salivating for shinies I've come to realize my understanding of builds in terms of powers and the like are pretty skewed.

 

Generally I'll take all of the powers in my primary and secondary, along with a few from my travel and ancillary/epic/patron and that's it. But seeing others posts and builds have made me realize that while there's not really a wrong way to do your build there's certainly a taxing and inefficient way.

 

Like I see some builds where they only have 3-5 attacks specified in an attack chain and then the rest are just supplementary, which just didn't click with me mentally and the way I do it (which admittedly can be annoying because, since I take all the powers in my primary and secondary, I'm stretching my fingers or manually clicking powers more often then not cause I just have so many attacks and buffs I need to use repeatedly.)

 

So what are some good basic guidelines for builds, especially in terms of deciding what powers to take from your primary, secondary and ancillary if you're not just taking all of them like I have been? 

 

Given my enhancements questions thread has been a wealth of immensely helpful info, what general guidelines, if any, for deciding what gets slots and how you decide what to slot it with?

 

Any information, guidelines, guide links, etc for me to understand this better would be appreciated! It's still throwing me for a loop a bit that, from what I've seen at least, you generally don't want to take every power from your primary and secondary!

[TygerDarkstorm]

I'm not a build maestro by any means, but I will repeat advice I have seen often here on the forums: When you are just starting out, it is actually a good idea to take all the powers from your primary and secondary as this allows you to fully understand how they work and whether or not they are useful to you and your goals with a character.

 

From the sounds of it, you tend to be more of a casual player who is building for theme/concept vs min/max, upper level play, which means your build is going to look a lot different than someone doing one of those things. There are some powersets where you do want all, or nearly all, of the powers and other sets where only 3-4 powers in it are useful. But again, it all comes down to your personal playstyle and goals for that character.

 

This thread is a good place to start:

@JJDrakken does a lot of builds and these are always a great place to start to get a base idea of what you can do with a character/combo and then tweak it to your desire. You can also search the forums for your particular AT and powersets, just keep in mind that a build that works for someone else may not work for you. But perusing them at least gives you an idea of what the player did and why (especially if they also offer that kind of info like @Sovera does in their threads).

 

I find all of this confusing much like yourself, and I've been here a few years now and read as many threads as I can, but I just haven't really been able to dedicate the time/energy into properly implementing this stuff in game. I appreciate your thread about enhancements as the discussion there was super useful, so hopefully this thread also opens up more useful info I'll be able to save for later, lol.

[Mjolnerd]

I probably shouldn't get on this horse again, but here I go, getting on this horse again:

 

Ask about piano lessons, and everyone will tell you how they taught themselves to play by ear. Actually, scratch that -- they'll tell you that they taught themselves to play by ear, but how they did that will never enter into the discussion.

 

I've asked basically this same question -- how does a person actually learn to make their own builds? -- several times, and unfortunately nobody seems to be able/willing/whatever to give a more specific answer than "IDK figure it out, n00b." By and large, the responses you're going to get in this thread will be that it's easy, that you shouldn't need anyone's help (or that it's impossible for anyone to help you), and that the best thing to do is just sit down in front of a blank screen on Mids and screw around for two or three hundred hours until you eventually blunder into perfection. How you're expected to know when you've achieved that perfection without respeccing 90 times in-game is anyone's guess.

 

You'll get vague advice like "build for defense," or "dominators want a lot of recharge," but no specifics regarding what targets to shoot for or how to actually hit them; feel free to prove me wrong here, folks. To a point this is because making a build is more art than science. But only to a point. Hard numbers do exist, and while there's no "best way" to build, there are most definitely good ways and bad ways. Not that I, personally, could tell you what those are. And not for lack of trying.

 

You're a monkey, here's your typewriter, go write Hamlet. And if you can't do that, here's a copy of Hamlet that someone else wrote, just cross out any lines you don't like and write in your own.

[Laucianna]

For me personally I would build in order of the following 3 things in order: Attacks - Utility - Defense.

So we start with Attacks which doesn't just mean pick every attack, it means look at the DPA of each attack available to you (Including some Power Pool attacks like Cross Punch) and then working out both a ST rotation and an AoE rotation, most people will want about 3-4 for their ST with 2-3 AoE attacks, once you have your attacks selected you can move onto the next important step.

Utility powers such as Travel Powers, Build ups, Hastens etc, fully up to you with how many of these you want but obviously the more you take the less power choices you will have to fill out your defense powers.

Defense is the final thing I would pick for powers which includes things like heals or resist/defence buffs. The reason I put this last is because it is the main thing that can be boosted by outside sources, another player isn't able to give you extra attacks, and they are less likely to give you travel powers or something as strong as Hasten, but getting defense, resists, heals are a lot more common especially in situations where you need them.

Regarding slotting it's hard to give a guideline as it comes as a per case situation, for instance on a Peacebringer Light Form is your TOP DOG defensive power, yet you only need 3 slots in it despite it being such a high ranking power. The main way I would and do look at it is "How many slots do I need to put in this before they stop mattering as much?" like once you start seeing red percentages on Mids you are getting into the wasted slot territory (Unless it is for set bonuses)

[Sovera]

4 hours ago, Mjolnerd said:

I probably shouldn't get on this horse again, but here I go, getting on this horse again:

 

Ask about piano lessons, and everyone will tell you how they taught themselves to play by ear. Actually, scratch that -- they'll tell you that they taught themselves to play by ear, but how they did that will never enter into the discussion.

 

I've asked basically this same question -- how does a person actually learn to make their own builds? -- several times, and unfortunately nobody seems to be able/willing/whatever to give a more specific answer than "IDK figure it out, n00b." By and large, the responses you're going to get in this thread will be that it's easy, that you shouldn't need anyone's help (or that it's impossible for anyone to help you), and that the best thing to do is just sit down in front of a blank screen on Mids and screw around for two or three hundred hours until you eventually blunder into perfection. How you're expected to know when you've achieved that perfection without respeccing 90 times in-game is anyone's guess.

 

You'll get vague advice like "build for defense," or "dominators want a lot of recharge," but no specifics regarding what targets to shoot for or how to actually hit them; feel free to prove me wrong here, folks. To a point this is because making a build is more art than science. But only to a point. Hard numbers do exist, and while there's no "best way" to build, there are most definitely good ways and bad ways. Not that I, personally, could tell you what those are. And not for lack of trying.

 

You're a monkey, here's your typewriter, go write Hamlet. And if you can't do that, here's a copy of Hamlet that someone else wrote, just cross out any lines you don't like and write in your own.

 

Making a build IS an art form. Some will build tanky like I do and sacrifice damage despite the game not being that hard. Others will go full on damage and rely on short buffs.

 

Saying HOW to build is harder than it sounds because it involves playing with IO bonuses and making a tetris that hits all the sweetspots. With hundreds of bonuses this is not something we can just say do X and Z.

 

To be fair what you're saying of 'just learn, n00b' is how I learned. I started builds (very crappy ones) posted them on the forums (and I cringe looking at them now). I saw how others did it, got my tips from their slotting, improved how I slotted.

 

But when you ask 'how do I reach my defense softcaps' it's like you expect some magic formula. There is no such thing. Different ATs have, by themselves, 236 combinations (I looked at the math for Brutes recently, and yes, we can have 236 variations of a Brute not including regular and epic pools which catapults it further). Of those 236 possible variations some will reach the caps in one way and others in another. In these permutations we then also add how some people will be fine with spending 700 million in a build and others want to spend 200 million tops.

 

If you want to take this as an apathetic community that does not care then okay, sure, go for it.

 

But if you were to tell me 'I have and X/X and I'd like to build tanky' I could say how to achieve this. You'd get bonus points for having tried it first and posted the build with the powers you like and want so we can work around it. If you then have questions I can try to answer them too.

 

 

 

But since you're talking goals here's some:

 

- Defence is, IMO, king, since a lot of attacks carry debuffs in them. If we avoid the attacks we avoid the debuffs. Defence comes in two flavours: typed (smash/lethal, fire/cold, etc) and positional (melee, ranged, AoE). These do not intersect or stack so pick one. Which one do you pick? The one your AT is aimed for. For example Stone Armor is typed defense so obviously aim for it. But Ninjutsu is positional, so it's positional you want.

 

Goals: 45% of either. If going into incarnate territory this goes up to 59% (I don't personally bother building for incarnate but it's a me thing). Most ranged ATs have zero defenses or resistances natively with the exception of Sentinel who has armor toggles in their secondary. So trying to build a ranged character who reaches 45% to everything is just near impossible. In this case as a rule of thumb what will be aimed for is just Ranged defense since as a ranged character the enemies will be hitting back from range. This is also a reason why ranged characters will be advised to take Hover and Fly in order to be floating out of melee ranged making their Ranged defense shine. This is not the only way to do it though. A Blaster can ignore defense and just start a fight doing so much damage that they obliterate a spawn in the first seconds, but this is not as easy as it sounds if wishing to increase the difficulty.

 

 

Resistance based sets will go up to 90%. They will usually have a heal to recoup those 10% being lost since EVERY attack lands. There is no fancy 'positional' here as resistances apply to a certain damage type. These types are always paired though, so IO bonuses will give, for example, smash/lethal resistance instead of just smash or just lethal.

 

While certain ATs like Brutes or Tankers have natively a 90% cap to all it is very hard, if not impossible, to grab a defense set and pump up the resistances as well. If the armor picked is defence then focus on getting to the defence cap, and if the armor is resistance then try to get it to 90%. Tankers have it good since their special AT IO gives them at least 13% via its proc allowing to, at least, aim for 77% instead of 90% as the last 13% come from the ATO proc.

 

Then, if there is slotting and depending on how much you're willing to sacrifice you can use the leftover slots to increase resistances. This is the moment where recharge is sacrificed.

 

 

Recharge is important if having a lot of important cooldowns. Some sets live and die by their cooldowns (for example Bio Armor that relies on three cooldowns to stay alive) and others don't really care much (for example Super Reflexes or Stone Armor that have no defensive cooldowns). But when it comes to attacks having lots of recharge allows to only use the strong attacks as well as making Build-up come back sooner. Build-up is an important tool (more for solo tbh) as it gives a substantial 80% damage boost for 10 seconds. With a Gaussian proc in it that is increased to 160% for 5 seconds, then 80% for the remainder five. Especially during solo those initial 160% are key to bursting a spawn of mobs in the first seconds by dumping all AoEs empowered by Build-up + Gaussian.

 

The usual rule of thumb is aiming for Hasten being permanent but it's not easy to achieve. Trying to build tanky is almost anathema to building a lot of recharge as there are choices to be made to go for one or go for the other. Some ATs, like Dominators, will live and die with recharge and barely need to be built tanky since their whole shtick is CCing mobs. No need to be tanky when mobs are frozen or stunned while being kil.. arrested.

[Sovera]

7 hours ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

So after asking questions and trawling the forums like a gremlin salivating for shinies I've come to realize my understanding of builds in terms of powers and the like are pretty skewed.

 

Generally I'll take all of the powers in my primary and secondary, along with a few from my travel and ancillary/epic/patron and that's it. But seeing others posts and builds have made me realize that while there's not really a wrong way to do your build there's certainly a taxing and inefficient way.

 

Like I see some builds where they only have 3-5 attacks specified in an attack chain and then the rest are just supplementary, which just didn't click with me mentally and the way I do it (which admittedly can be annoying because, since I take all the powers in my primary and secondary, I'm stretching my fingers or manually clicking powers more often then not cause I just have so many attacks and buffs I need to use repeatedly.)

 

So what are some good basic guidelines for builds, especially in terms of deciding what powers to take from your primary, secondary and ancillary if you're not just taking all of them like I have been? 

 

Given my enhancements questions thread has been a wealth of immensely helpful info, what general guidelines, if any, for deciding what gets slots and how you decide what to slot it with?

 

Any information, guidelines, guide links, etc for me to understand this better would be appreciated! It's still throwing me for a loop a bit that, from what I've seen at least, you generally don't want to take every power from your primary and secondary!

 

 

You don't need to take all your attack powers. As a rule your strongest powers are the ones taken later. Colloquially they are referred by tiers with the first attack called tier 1 (or T1) and the last being the tier 9 (or T9). Your strongest attacks are usually the last ones. This is not 100% true for all sets so don't shy away from asking regarding certain combos.

 

For ranged characters their T9 is also known as their nuke. That's the thing they will initiate combat with and is frankly of the most important since it will burst a group of mobs.

 

But for the most part what you want is Mids, the program we use for builds, and then look at the recharge of the attacks. I'm sure you've noticed that your huge bar of attack has constantly powers that are already recharged and not being used because you just can't press them all. Narrow these to:

 

- Powers you like. They just look cool and that's valid. That power from Radiation Blast that does the Star Wars pew pew sound? Yes please.

- Powers that are useful. Build-up for example (never skip, take early, slot early, it's your opener), but powers that give a breather by knocking enemies away.

- Enough attacks that when you hit your last one the first has finished recharging. Any more than these are not needed. This will change as you level so it is fine to take one or two attacks more while leveling but as slots open and more recharge is slotting the need for extra attacks goes down. I would usually recommend always taking the T1 as it is what recharges the fastest and it's easy to slip it in between each of the stronger attacks. Later on it can be ignored or just turned into a mule.

 

The last one in particular will fluctuate a lot depending on how you slot your powers. Having a metric load of cash will allow to slot fancy IOs early which in turn will allow to not take a lot of powers in order to not have big gaps waiting for powers to finish recharging. But if playing with basic vendor bought gear then that does not happen and the progression will be slower and the need for extra attacks will remain.

 

There is no easy answer as this will depend on what AT and which power sets you've picked in that AT.

 

 

As a quick example with all min maxed expensive builds pretty much all have only three single target attacks with very tight requirements to avoid picking a fourth attack. But then there will be AoE attacks which depend on the attack set. Some will have one AoE, some will have two. Then Build-up. So around 5-6 powers will be taken from the attack set.

 

There are exceptions to this such as Axe that has such awkward recharge times that a fourth attack is required, and Ice Melee which has no good third single-target attack so I use Frost, it's cone AoE, in the single-target chain giving the set excellent cleave which ends saving one power pick.

 

 

For the secondary sets it is harder to answer because it depends on the set. A buffer AT will want its buffs, but a Blaster will pick which of their melee attacks they feel comfortable going into melee to use. A meleer will take their armor toggles, always, but some passives are not worth picking or be avoided (Stone Armor's Granite form for example).

 

There are way too many possible permutations to go through each one. As a rule it is much easier to cobble something together in Mids, post it on the forums, ask for opinions, and then, important, decide whether you want to take those opinions. Some opinions will be all min maxed and suck the joy out of playing the set that you were having. Eff that. But say it and someone is bound to give a helping hand. You can learn what was done and most of the times the builds themselves can be used as templates to try different combos and trying to replicate the slotting.

 

 

[TheMultiVitamin]

9 hours ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

I'm not a build maestro by any means, but I will repeat advice I have seen often here on the forums: When you are just starting out, it is actually a good idea to take all the powers from your primary and secondary as this allows you to fully understand how they work and whether or not they are useful to you and your goals with a character.

 

From the sounds of it, you tend to be more of a casual player who is building for theme/concept vs min/max, upper level play, which means your build is going to look a lot different than someone doing one of those things. There are some powersets where you do want all, or nearly all, of the powers and other sets where only 3-4 powers in it are useful. But again, it all comes down to your personal playstyle and goals for that character.

 

This thread is a good place to start:

@JJDrakken does a lot of builds and these are always a great place to start to get a base idea of what you can do with a character/combo and then tweak it to your desire. You can also search the forums for your particular AT and powersets, just keep in mind that a build that works for someone else may not work for you. But perusing them at least gives you an idea of what the player did and why (especially if they also offer that kind of info like @Sovera does in their threads).

 

I find all of this confusing much like yourself, and I've been here a few years now and read as many threads as I can, but I just haven't really been able to dedicate the time/energy into properly implementing this stuff in game. I appreciate your thread about enhancements as the discussion there was super useful, so hopefully this thread also opens up more useful info I'll be able to save for later, lol.

Yea I feel ya, I've been playing on and off since around 2020 but recently in the last month or so I've been obsessed with playing (dedicating at least 4-6 hours a day) into this game, but not understanding some aspects of it was getting to me so I figure the best place to ask is the forums. I'm definitely more of a casual player as you said mostly in that I care more about theme and aesthetic, though I admittedly do like seeing Number Go Up:tm: tbh. All the powers just look cool and feel useful/important too so taking them all just always defaults to the logical choice for me mentally, especially given the whole "building for theme/concept rather then optimal use" thing.

Also yea I've been looking at JJDrakken's builds (thanks for the share) and they do look neat though I'm still struggling a bit to understand them but I imagine that'll become easier as I become more familiar with stuff myself.

I'm glad the enhancements thread was able to help you as much as it was able to help me!

 

2 hours ago, Laucianna said:

For me personally I would build in order of the following 3 things in order: Attacks - Utility - Defense.

So we start with Attacks which doesn't just mean pick every attack, it means look at the DPA of each attack available to you (Including some Power Pool attacks like Cross Punch) and then working out both a ST rotation and an AoE rotation, most people will want about 3-4 for their ST with 2-3 AoE attacks, once you have your attacks selected you can move onto the next important step.

Utility powers such as Travel Powers, Build ups, Hastens etc, fully up to you with how many of these you want but obviously the more you take the less power choices you will have to fill out your defense powers.

Defense is the final thing I would pick for powers which includes things like heals or resist/defence buffs. The reason I put this last is because it is the main thing that can be boosted by outside sources, another player isn't able to give you extra attacks, and they are less likely to give you travel powers or something as strong as Hasten, but getting defense, resists, heals are a lot more common especially in situations where you need them.

Regarding slotting it's hard to give a guideline as it comes as a per case situation, for instance on a Peacebringer Light Form is your TOP DOG defensive power, yet you only need 3 slots in it despite it being such a high ranking power. The main way I would and do look at it is "How many slots do I need to put in this before they stop mattering as much?" like once you start seeing red percentages on Mids you are getting into the wasted slot territory (Unless it is for set bonuses)

Ah that makes so much since! I've been doing a lot of Solo content because I wanted to actually read and experience all the Contacts and their story arcs, so much so that I forget sometimes that this is an MMO and a social team game as much as it is a normal one. So having Defense as the final pick makes a lot of sense considering that others will normally be buffing you instead of it, though with me being Solo currently it's more up on the priority list then others for survivability for the moment.

And yea I figured it'd be harder to give a guideline for slotting because of the sheer amount of AT + Powerset + Ancillary/Epic/Patrons combo's that exist (even more so when they add new Powersets all the time like they have been, which is awesome), but I thought I'd ask just in case! I've been using MIDS mostly just to see how the current slotted powers stack up and to avoid the red numbers.

 

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

 

 

You don't need to take all your attack powers. As a rule your strongest powers are the ones taken later. Colloquially they are referred by tiers with the first attack called tier 1 (or T1) and the last being the tier 9 (or T9). Your strongest attacks are usually the last ones. This is not 100% true for all sets so don't shy away from asking regarding certain combos.

 

For ranged characters their T9 is also known as their nuke. That's the thing they will initiate combat with and is frankly of the most important since it will burst a group of mobs.

 

But for the most part what you want is Mids, the program we use for builds, and then look at the recharge of the attacks. I'm sure you've noticed that your huge bar of attack has constantly powers that are already recharged and not being used because you just can't press them all. Narrow these to:

 

- Powers you like. They just look cool and that's valid. That power from Radiation Blast that does the Star Wars pew pew sound? Yes please.

- Powers that are useful. Build-up for example (never skip, take early, slot early, it's your opener), but powers that give a breather by knocking enemies away.

- Enough attacks that when you hit your last one the first has finished recharging. Any more than these are not needed. This will change as you level so it is fine to take one or two attacks more while leveling but as slots open and more recharge is slotting the need for extra attacks goes down. I would usually recommend always taking the T1 as it is what recharges the fastest and it's easy to slip it in between each of the stronger attacks. Later on it can be ignored or just turned into a mule.

 

The last one in particular will fluctuate a lot depending on how you slot your powers. Having a metric load of cash will allow to slot fancy IOs early which in turn will allow to not take a lot of powers in order to not have big gaps waiting for powers to finish recharging. But if playing with basic vendor bought gear then that does not happen and the progression will be slower and the need for extra attacks will remain.

 

There is no easy answer as this will depend on what AT and which power sets you've picked in that AT.

 

 

As a quick example with all min maxed expensive builds pretty much all have only three single target attacks with very tight requirements to avoid picking a fourth attack. But then there will be AoE attacks which depend on the attack set. Some will have one AoE, some will have two. Then Build-up. So around 5-6 powers will be taken from the attack set.

 

There are exceptions to this such as Axe that has such awkward recharge times that a fourth attack is required, and Ice Melee which has no good third single-target attack so I use Frost, it's cone AoE, in the single-target chain giving the set excellent cleave which ends saving one power pick.

 

 

For the secondary sets it is harder to answer because it depends on the set. A buffer AT will want its buffs, but a Blaster will pick which of their melee attacks they feel comfortable going into melee to use. A meleer will take their armor toggles, always, but some passives are not worth picking or be avoided (Stone Armor's Granite form for example).

 

There are way too many possible permutations to go through each one. As a rule it is much easier to cobble something together in Mids, post it on the forums, ask for opinions, and then, important, decide whether you want to take those opinions. Some opinions will be all min maxed and suck the joy out of playing the set that you were having. Eff that. But say it and someone is bound to give a helping hand. You can learn what was done and most of the times the builds themselves can be used as templates to try different combos and trying to replicate the slotting.

 

 

Thanks a ton, this really helps! I love so many of the powers of this game and how builds work but it can be difficult to parse and you've definitely made it easier with all this information! I'll have to start considering what I want my chain's to be and go from there, but at least now I understand why and how people do what they do for their builds power wise much better, thank you!

Edited Wednesday at 01:37 PM by TheMultiVitamin

[tidge]

The artistry in crafting a build by following a recipe is in how the recipe is ignored.

 

Some points I commonly follow:

 

1) I don't take more attacks than I need, unless there is something mechanically interesting/thematic about the sets/characters.

 

For example: I find some Blast sets (Assault Rifle, the Archeries, even Beam Rifle) to have so many different attacks I find myself taking more than I need. I rarely take an 'extra' attack for set bonus reasons, unless it is in a power pool and can be used as a pre-requisite for a power I want.

 

2) I rarely take Hasten. There is plenty of global recharge to be had from set bonuses.

 

Hasten is IMO a bit of a mental trap... many players who recommend it decide they want 'perma-Hasten', which leads to both burning a power pick (and pool) on Hasten, and then making a lot of necessary build choices to get the set bonuses to make Hasten perma.

 

3) I rarely sweat trying to 'soft-cap' defenses for 'squishies'... or push the limits of Resistances.

 

I'm not ignoring the attack mechanics, and I do have certain ATs that (necessarily, for some content) exceed what the game has mechanically imposed... yet I find I don't need that build strategy to enjoy the game. It is rare I take the Fighting pool.

 

4) I try to have my character be 'complete' Attacks/Defenses/Utility for level 30 content (especially when exemplared down).

 

Practically: this means that I often don't sweat incarnates or epic/patron powers (especially using many slots on power picks above level 32)

 

5) Single target controls get serious evaluation before I invest in them.

 

These are IMO a mixed bag. Often they can be used as sources of damage (especially Holds, via %damage), but they are single-target... which makes for relying on one of these to clear enemies a bit of a slog. Usually I land on slotting them for the control aspect, and sometimes for a desired set bonus. Often a temporary attack used on a controlled enemy is more reliable!

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

Powers that are useful. Build-up for example (never skip, take early, slot early, it's your opener), but powers that give a breather by knocking enemies away.

 

Hmmm...I almost never take Build Up on Brutes, and when I do its late with little investment.

[Psyonico]

I can't really think of any hard-and-fast rules that would go with every build.

 

For example, I usually build for soft capped Ranged and AoE defense on my squishies, but that goes out the window when looking at Dominators or Illusion Controllers, where recharge is more important.

 

Also, armored toons without DDR generally focus mostly on resistance, but something like Dark Armor can still benefit from some defense.

[Without_Pause]

A T1 attack can likely be skipped even if left out via a later respec. I would plan around 3-4 Single target attacks. I'm not sure if there are ever too many AoE attacks to take, but some might not be worthwhile. 

 

I seek out guides for powersets and see how far that can get me in a build. I will look at builds where I know the poster has put a genuine effort in playing it and refining the build. Anytime someone posted an updated build lets me know they are putting in the effort to make the build as good as possible. If you take the time and effort to post a build, odds are people will chime in for what changes you could make. 

[Erratic1]

8 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

I'm not sure if there are ever too many AoE attacks to take, but some might not be worthwhile. 

 

Has anyone yet found a reason to take Proton Sweep from Rad Melee?

[Without_Pause]

31 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Has anyone yet found a reason to take Proton Sweep from Rad Melee?

AoE which sets up mobs being contaminated? I know many dislike cones in the game. I have it on my Rad/bio Brute, but I honestly could do a new build on it, but I lack the energy to redo a build which I've essentially moved on from. 

[Erratic1]

3 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

AoE which sets up mobs being contaminated? I know many dislike cones in the game. I have it on my Rad/bio Brute, but I honestly could do a new build on it, but I lack the energy to redo a build which I've essentially moved on from. 

 

I don't dislike cones a priori. But Proton Sweep does not cover a particularly large arc at 75 degrees. With 12 o'clock directly ahead of you, 60 degrees would be from 11 to 1. 75 degrees being 25% larger makes the range go from 10:45 to 1:15. And Proton Sweep only has a 9% chance at contaminating what it hits.

[Without_Pause]

30 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I don't dislike cones a priori. But Proton Sweep does not cover a particularly large arc at 75 degrees. With 12 o'clock directly ahead of you, 60 degrees would be from 11 to 1. 75 degrees being 25% larger makes the range go from 10:45 to 1:15. And Proton Sweep only has a 9% chance at contaminating what it hits.

Rad has two other AoEs. If you aren't a Brute, the damage aura isn't fueled by Fury or Crits. Tankers at least get the bigger AoEs, but I can see a Scrapper wanting to use it since it can Crit or even triggering the Scrapper +Change to Crit so something else does hit for more. 

[Sanguinesun]

16 hours ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

So after asking questions and trawling the forums like a gremlin salivating for shinies I've come to realize my understanding of builds in terms of powers and the like are pretty skewed.

 

Generally I'll take all of the powers in my primary and secondary, along with a few from my travel and ancillary/epic/patron and that's it. But seeing others posts and builds have made me realize that while there's not really a wrong way to do your build there's certainly a taxing and inefficient way.

 

Like I see some builds where they only have 3-5 attacks specified in an attack chain and then the rest are just supplementary, which just didn't click with me mentally and the way I do it (which admittedly can be annoying because, since I take all the powers in my primary and secondary, I'm stretching my fingers or manually clicking powers more often then not cause I just have so many attacks and buffs I need to use repeatedly.)

 

So what are some good basic guidelines for builds, especially in terms of deciding what powers to take from your primary, secondary and ancillary if you're not just taking all of them like I have been? 

 

Given my enhancements questions thread has been a wealth of immensely helpful info, what general guidelines, if any, for deciding what gets slots and how you decide what to slot it with?

 

Any information, guidelines, guide links, etc for me to understand this better would be appreciated! It's still throwing me for a loop a bit that, from what I've seen at least, you generally don't want to take every power from your primary and secondary!

 

 

1. Build with specific goals in mind.  If your answer is "do everything" then understand that there's no such thing(intentionally in this game).  You may be seeing lots of builds but maybe needing to more succinctly understand what those build goals are for.  Someone with general post 50 game play (causal hami, MSR, itrials, any task force that suits your fancy etc) can use most any suggested builds but if you're going to focus on more challenging content where each member of the team requires min/maxing and meeting the role needs based on the dynamics the team brings, then you're going to need a completely different consideration(keep in mind that arguably less thant 10%(if that) of the player base engage in those either. If you're attempting to build an influence farming toon, that's also another specific min/max variation for some ATs.   There is a spectrum of considerations.

 

2. Most players settle on specific single target and AoE attack chains(though again see point 1 how that can be different) and not taking every single power that is available in the prim/sec.  This is because depending on how you build, you're going to likely be doing ore damage in those chains, more effectively vs spreading your build out too thin.  It does seem counter intuitive to not take all powers within your sets but the game intentionally wants you making choices due to you having more options than you can choose from.   Remember, this game was originally a paid subscription game and designing things in this manner was one small ingredient to keeping people engaged/sub'd.   You can have the same AT, same prim/sec but build completely different ways per goals of playing or just one's curiosity/enjoyment.

 

3. In relation to point 1 and 2, how you slot and how you choose your Invention Origin Enhancement sets is important. Not just for damage but endurance management, heals, def/res, and more.  

 

4. Again there is no cookie cutter you can be given.  This is actually intentional by the game/devs originally live and now HC as well.  This is why there is such a variety to builds and somewhat even within the min/max options for specific game play.

 

5. As you know, there is a large guides section and each AT has their own individual subforums where builds and advice are most commonly given.   Use the mids hero planner, learn it well, and create builds then (specifying your goals) and post them in their respective AT's subforum for suggestions and discussions.

 

6.  Play the game.  The more you play a variety of content and understand how different compositions of teams and their dynamics affect play, this can also better help shape your build considerations(again depending on point 1).   Often players who come here and make very generalized wants regarding a build are still relatively new/inexperienced with the game and even giving them a gen pop build for casual play(there are lots), they still can find themselves having a steep learning curve to actually use it in the game due to still needing to learn with work with teams and or content or just simply the person who made the build has a specific playstyle that wasnt informed well with the build they gave to someone else to use saying "this is a good build".

 

7.  In relation to point 6, people will give builds but their considerations for it also may have confirmation bias vs true effectivity in mind either.  I've seen people push specific builds saying xyz is the best but then failing to point out that such a build while leveling may be so so, post 50, it will have challenges... or vice versa(more often).  Cross reference builds of similar goals/designs, ask questions, keep skepticism in mind, and trying things out.

 

8.  Unlike when this game was live, leveling and building characters is extremely easy/fast.  The true villain then for most players is the funds to do it... of which there are guides and methods on procuring influence and making that  point a non issue.  Some people use methods to fund their leveling easily to 50 (with general IO enhancements) while they level and then post 50 either decide to focus and fulling IO set kit out the character or park it and move on to playing something else.  Leveling is in itself a casual affair so there's really little need to spend on sets as you level and just wait until post 50.  That can be a big load off some people's minds because they've been lead to believe they -have to- IO set while they level which is silly.

 

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 09:07 PM by Sanguinesun

[TheMultiVitamin]

5 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

 

1. Build with specific goals in mind.  If your answer is "do everything" then understand that there's no such thing(intentionally in this game).  You may be seeing lots of builds but maybe needing to more succinctly understand what those build goals are for.  Someone with general post 50 game play (causal hami, MSR, itrials, any task force that suits your fancy etc) can use most any suggested builds but if you're going to focus on more challenging content where each member of the team requires min/maxing and meeting the role needs based on the dynamics the team brings, then you're going to need a completely different consideration(keep in mind that arguably less thant 10%(if that) of the player base engage in those either. If you're attempting to build an influence farming toon, that's also another specific min/max variation for some ATs.   There is a spectrum of considerations.

 

2. Most players settle on specific single target and AoE attack chains(though again see point 1 how that can be different) and not taking every single power that is available in the prim/sec.  This is because depending on how you build, you're going to likely be doing ore damage in those chains, more effectively vs spreading your build out too thin.  It does seem counter intuitive to not take all powers within your sets but the game intentionally wants you making choices due to you having more options than you can choose from.   Remember, this game was originally a paid subscription game and designing things in this manner was one small ingredient to keeping people engaged/sub'd.   You can have the same AT, same prim/sec but build completely different ways per goals of playing or just one's curiosity/enjoyment.

 

3. In relation to point 1 and 2, how you slot and how you choose your Invention Origin Enhancement sets is important. Not just for damage but endurance management, heals, def/res, and more.  

 

4. Again there is no cookie cutter you can be given.  This is actually intentional by the game/devs originally live and now HC as well.  This is why there is such a variety to builds and somewhat even within the min/max options for specific game play.

 

5. As you know, there is a large guides section and each AT has their own individual subforums where builds and advice are most commonly given.   Use the mids hero planner, learn it well, and create builds then (specifying your goals) and post them in their respective AT's subforum for suggestions and discussions.

 

6.  Play the game.  The more you play a variety of content and understand how different compositions of teams and their dynamics affect play, this can also better help shape your build considerations(again depending on point 1).   Often players who come here and make very generalized wants regarding a build are still relatively new/inexperienced with the game and even giving them a gen pop build for casual play(there are lots), they still can find themselves having a steep learning curve to actually use it in the game due to still needing to learn with work with teams and or content or just simply the person who made the build has a specific playstyle that wasnt informed well with the build they gave to someone else to use saying "this is a good build".

 

7.  In relation to point 6, people will give builds but their considerations for it also may have confirmation bias vs true effectivity in mind either.  I've seen people push specific builds saying xyz is the best but then failing to point out that such a build while leveling may be so so, post 50, it will have challenges... or vice versa(more often).  Cross reference builds of similar goals/designs, ask questions, keep skepticism in mind, and trying things out.

 

8.  Unlike when this game was live, leveling and building characters is extremely easy/fast.  The true villain then for most players is the funds to do it... of which there are guides and methods on procuring influence and making that  point a non issue.  Some people use methods to fund their leveling easily to 50 (with general IO enhancements) while they level and then post 50 either decide to focus and fulling IO set kit out the character or park it and move on to playing something else.  Leveling is in itself a casual affair so there's really little need to spend on sets as you level and just wait until post 50.  That can be a big load off some people's minds because they've been lead to believe they -have to- IO set while they level which is silly.

 

 

 

 

 

11 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

A T1 attack can likely be skipped even if left out via a later respec. I would plan around 3-4 Single target attacks. I'm not sure if there are ever too many AoE attacks to take, but some might not be worthwhile. 

 

I seek out guides for powersets and see how far that can get me in a build. I will look at builds where I know the poster has put a genuine effort in playing it and refining the build. Anytime someone posted an updated build lets me know they are putting in the effort to make the build as good as possible. If you take the time and effort to post a build, odds are people will chime in for what changes you could make. 

 

12 hours ago, tidge said:

The artistry in crafting a build by following a recipe is in how the recipe is ignored.

 

Some points I commonly follow:

 

1) I don't take more attacks than I need, unless there is something mechanically interesting/thematic about the sets/characters.

 

For example: I find some Blast sets (Assault Rifle, the Archeries, even Beam Rifle) to have so many different attacks I find myself taking more than I need. I rarely take an 'extra' attack for set bonus reasons, unless it is in a power pool and can be used as a pre-requisite for a power I want.

 

2) I rarely take Hasten. There is plenty of global recharge to be had from set bonuses.

 

Hasten is IMO a bit of a mental trap... many players who recommend it decide they want 'perma-Hasten', which leads to both burning a power pick (and pool) on Hasten, and then making a lot of necessary build choices to get the set bonuses to make Hasten perma.

 

3) I rarely sweat trying to 'soft-cap' defenses for 'squishies'... or push the limits of Resistances.

 

I'm not ignoring the attack mechanics, and I do have certain ATs that (necessarily, for some content) exceed what the game has mechanically imposed... yet I find I don't need that build strategy to enjoy the game. It is rare I take the Fighting pool.

 

4) I try to have my character be 'complete' Attacks/Defenses/Utility for level 30 content (especially when exemplared down).

 

Practically: this means that I often don't sweat incarnates or epic/patron powers (especially using many slots on power picks above level 32)

 

5) Single target controls get serious evaluation before I invest in them.

 

These are IMO a mixed bag. Often they can be used as sources of damage (especially Holds, via %damage), but they are single-target... which makes for relying on one of these to clear enemies a bit of a slog. Usually I land on slotting them for the control aspect, and sometimes for a desired set bonus. Often a temporary attack used on a controlled enemy is more reliable!

Honestly taking these into account and looking back at powers in the character creation screen, some things start making more sense to me both mechanically and thematically. Using Psionic Melee as an example, my old thinking used to be "Kind of sucks that there's only 3 Psi-Blade powers there, what if I wanted to make a character that's entire thing is just a Psi-Blade? Wish the other attacks had Psi-blade variants in the customization part".

But now it's like, well if I want to do that I can just take Psi Blade, Psi Blade Sweep and Greater Psi-Blade as my attack chain, along with Concentration, Taunt, and Boggle. With a maybe on Mass Levitate for it's AOE usage.

[biostem]

22 hours ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

So what are some good basic guidelines for builds, especially in terms of deciding what powers to take from your primary, secondary and ancillary if you're not just taking all of them like I have been? 

You definitely do not need to take all the attacks in a set.  The key is developing an attack chain and/or being able to pick and choose what powers to use and when.  For me, I generally prefer to have 3-5 "staple attacks", with the rest being more situational - I'm not spamming AoEs against only 2-3 enemies, and I prefer to slot for control/debuff effects for powers outside of those core 3-5 powers.  I also generally build with a character's entire career in mind, so having an APP/PPP power in your core attack chain is not something I am likely to do, (though there are plenty of viable builds that do just that, but it can be problematic if you're also going to run lower level content).

 

What I would suggest is to look at the recharge and animation times of your attack powers, and do a little experimentation - maybe create a character on the test server or one of the insta-PvP-50s and try things out for yourself...

[Without_Pause]

59 minutes ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

Honestly taking these into account and looking back at powers in the character creation screen, some things start making more sense to me both mechanically and thematically. Using Psionic Melee as an example, my old thinking used to be "Kind of sucks that there's only 3 Psi-Blade powers there, what if I wanted to make a character that's entire thing is just a Psi-Blade? Wish the other attacks had Psi-blade variants in the customization part".

But now it's like, well if I want to do that I can just take Psi Blade, Psi Blade Sweep and Greater Psi-Blade as my attack chain, along with Concentration, Taunt, and Boggle. With a maybe on Mass Levitate for it's AOE usage.

I so wished I could take Ice or Fire and do nothing but blades. I wished we had more than one version of a melee set. Fire melee for my tanker is three ST attacks and two AoEs. Add in BU and Taunt. I skip the T1 and Fire Breath due to the animation. I used Fire Breath early as that was my second 'ST' attack until I got to 28. So much AoE damage early. Soloing was easy. 

[biostem]

6 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

I so wished I could take Ice or Fire and do nothing but blades.

I feel the same way about psi-melee - I wish we could have ALL blades...

[Yomo Kimyata]

23 hours ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

Generally I'll take all of the powers in my primary and secondary

 

If you don't try every power, how are you gonna know how it performs?  This is the way.  And then when a power no longer meets your needs, you've learned enough to choose to remove it.  

 

[UltraAlt]

23 hours ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

Generally I'll take all of the powers in my primary and secondary, along with a few from my travel and ancillary/epic/patron and that's it. But seeing others posts and builds have made me realize that while there's not really a wrong way to do your build there's certainly a taxing and inefficient way.

 

There are those that create characters based on exploiting the power sets and game mechanics, there are those that create characters and pick powers based on character conception, and then there are other ways of going about it (to cover everything else).

 

As a character conception player, I do not feel it to be "taxing or inefficient" to play a character based on my conception of them. I try to retain that concept even if it means turning off the XP/Level-locking them because I consider them to be at the height of their powers at that point.

 

If you want to mini-max then I would suggest Mids ... as I'm sure other people have.

 

If you want to explore the game and everything it has to offer, then you can't dismiss powers simply because they aren't "the best" based on number crunching.

There are alot of powers that are fun to use that people will throw out the window for the sake of dps alone.

 

City of Heroes was based on teaming and team synergy. Over the years it has become more solo friendly. 

 

Is playing City of Heroes about enjoying and exploring the superhero genre or is it about "steamrolling" content/"Hulk smash!"?

 

The choice is yours. You pick your own goals and what is fun for you.

[Erratic1]

3 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

Is playing City of Heroes about enjoying and exploring the superhero genre or is it about "steamrolling" content/"Hulk smash!"?

 

Almost certain some would not see those things as incompatible. And certainly others would not see a need for the clear derision packed in the question.

[biostem]

Just now, Erratic1 said:

Almost certain some would not see those things as incompatible. And certainly others would not see a need for the clear derision packed in the question.

I think that this also highlights how the "one size fits all" approach to CoH doesn't always mesh well with everyone's expectations;  Sometimes you want to be a Hulk or Juggernaut, other times you *just* want to be a Daredevil or something more "mundane"...

[Without_Pause]

2 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

If you don't try every power, how are you gonna know how it performs?  This is the way.  And then when a power no longer meets your needs, you've learned enough to choose to remove it.  

There is the Beta server as well. It is little more than doing a respec on a build to see what one plays like. City of Data gives me a starting point for DPA and animation times overall. Another aspect to not taking all of the attacks is you have more slotting for the ones you do take.