General archtype/power balance

[Snarky]

8 minutes ago, MTeague said:

To be fair, do you EVER see that reaction for ANY archtype ("Oh wow, we got a tank!  Oh wow, we got a blaster!") ? I don't.

i literally gave the answer right after (a KIN....)

[MTeague]

Yea, I saw that. But only once ever have I seen people pysched when my Kintroller joined the team, and that was a Granite Tank, back on Live. 

Still, I accept your experience has been different than mine.

[FFTMime]

21 minutes ago, MTeague said:

To be fair, do you EVER see that reaction for ANY archtype ("Oh wow, we got a tank!  Oh wow, we got a blaster!") ? I don't.

I have seen a variant of this when the team is 5 blasters out of a possible 8 team slots. Usually on the order of, "Oh boy here we go." 

[FFTMime]

Edit: Oh no.

Edited Monday at 10:20 PM by FFTMime

[biostem]

They seem pathologically afraid to give brutes more damage and to allow them to actually fill up their rage bar under normal combat conditions, and without requiring additional procs.  Scrappers and Stalkers should be about burst damage and brutes about sustained damage, (even taking into account the relatively short duration of most battles)... 

[Psyonico]

OP:

 

 here’s the thing about brutes.  They do better ST and small AoE damage than Tanks and are more survivable than Scrappers.

 

 Now, there’s a big caveat to both of those things.  Tanks get increased AoE size and target caps, so while a brute will out damage them in x2 or maybe even x3 content, and will always out damage them against single hard targets, tanks generally pull ahead in large group situations.  This is because tanks used to be in a worse spot than Brutes are now… for the majority of content there was no good reason to pick a Tank over a Brute.  Tanks subsequently got buffed.

 

As for survivability compared to scrappers, as I said earlier, Brutes draw more threat than Scrappers.  This is what causes them to feel squishier.

 

Brutes, in general, have a harder time in the earlier levels because of where they sit between Tanks and Scrappers.  Basically, people expect brutes to be able to tank, but they are only slightly more survivable than scrappers.  Then you throw on top of that their ability to peel aggro and you end up face planting.

 

 

[Snarky]

13 minutes ago, biostem said:

They seem pathologically afraid to give brutes more damage and to allow them to actually fill up their rage bar under normal combat conditions, and without requiring additional procs.  Scrappers and Stalkers should be about burst damage and brutes about sustained damage, (even taking into account the relatively short duration of most battles)... 

back on live, in edge cases, certain (very few, maybe one) type of Brute could outdamage Scrappers.

 

so, obviously

 

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Snarky said:

back on live, in edge cases, certain (very few, maybe one) type of Brute could outdamage Scrappers.

IMHO, if a particular enemy hasn't been defeated after the first opening volley, then that scrapper or stalker should find themselves in a very disadvantageous position, whereas a longer drawn-out battle should further fuel that brute's fury. increasing their damage even further...

[Snarky]

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

IMHO, if a particular enemy hasn't been defeated after the first opening volley, then that scrapper or stalker should find themselves in a very disadvantageous position, whereas a longer drawn-out battle should further fuel that brute's fury. increasing their damage even further...

well suck it up buttercup.  Brutes have been hated on since they were created, and have been nerf hammered three different ways.  The current Devs are taking the polite way of doing it, buffing Tanks, Scrappers, and Stalkers.  So, .... I just stopped playing them.

[Falcon Striker]

Maybe if they change how rage works a bit?

 

Just tossing ideas out there.  Give them a toggle, let them store rage longer and it drains less quickly, then when they turn the toggle on, their attacks start consuming the rage meter like a resource that gives them more damage output.  You could also make it to where building meter improves their defensive passives and toggles, the more the better.  But if they choose to consume that meter for dps, they take more damage as their rage goes down from consuming it?

 

That way you can keep their dps in check, and they can adjust how they're playing based on what's required of them.  Need to tank?  Just do less damage and keep your rage up.  Want to dps?  Consume stored rage.  That way they're never just out of control in both regards at the same time, or they can try playing a balancing act with enough skill.

[Troo]

2 hours ago, Falcon Striker said:

I personally  used DM/SR and got to 13 like my friend and felt it was fine, I still feel tanks do their job better, and I don't think anyone will argue with me about that.  My friend was griping about his build, which I believe was super strength/invulnerability and he said it felt bad in every regard.  Holding threat, damage output, and especially just not dying.  He was testing it solo too.  I wasn't sure what to say to him. 

 

Ah.. expectations.

 

Tanker Survivability 10 -vs- Brute Survivability 8

 

Tanker primary job = Take aggro hold aggro

Brute primary job = Do whatever the F*%# they want

 

How to help your friend: 

Spoiler

Prioritize what they'd like to do with their NEW character. Anything before level say 14 is a pretty new character, limited power picks, limited slotting. (they did slot their powers, didn't they?) Once prioritized, do that. Do not deviate until say level 30.

"Especially just not dying" Did they take resistance powers asap? Did they slot the resist powers? Did they take Dull Pain asap and throw slots at it (3 Rech, 2 Heal Single Origin)? Are they liberally using inspirations that drop? Are they buying any inspirations? Did they take more than two attacks from their primary before level 10 (that's a trap)? Are they 'really' trying to not die?

"Holding threat" Gotta commit to taking a Taunt then. (avail at lvl 12) {my opinion, this is not a Brutes job}

"Damage output" Early on it can be a this OR that between survival and damage.

 

What a level 11 could look like:

  Maybe even taking Jab instead of Haymaker (but I like Haymaker).

 

I could speculate that your friend prioritized attacks rather than survival.

I could speculate that your friend failed to do any slotting.

I could speculate that your friend is not using inspirations and definitely not buying them from contacts.

These are pretty common and the game has a way of encouraging players to choose wisely. Just doing any one of the above three would have an impact.

 

[srmalloy]

3 hours ago, Falcon Striker said:

I personally  used DM/SR and got to 13 like my friend and felt it was fine, I still feel tanks do their job better, and I don't think anyone will argue with me about that.

I would have to go back and trawl through the archive of the Live forums, but I remember that it was the Mastermind archetype that was intended to be the closest analogue to Tankers in the CoV archetype list. Whether it's worked out that way in practice is definitely arguable.

[Go0gleplex]

Brutes are hard pre-20?! ( oO )  Say what now?!

Some power combos suck for sure...but for the most part I literally steam roll 6> mobs solo even if yellows with my Brutes until I get into the upper 20's-lower 30's. Doesn't get hard until you get an orange mixed in the bunch...and even then I almost never face plant.  Like Troo said...get the defense slotted solid in the first four levels and have at least 4 attacks (includes the origin default and brawl). Defense at six, attack at 8, travel at 10 and after that it's what fits best. Slot defense as a priority and fill in attacks when able or needed. (I tend to do rechg/acc/dmg SO's...sets as opportunity avails)  If you got a lot of mobs in front...try to get them to split up and defeat in detail...or prioritize the heavy hitters or annoyances like Engineers & Sappers. Just wading in and hitting anything in reach is just asking to be hammered IMO. 😉 

Edited Tuesday at 01:23 AM by Go0gleplex

[Clave Dark 5]

Pardon me for not having carefully read the entire thread but "scope creep"?  Do you mean power creep?

[Uun]

3 hours ago, Falcon Striker said:

Does their inherent ability make up for their lack of damage compared to other AT?

When sentinels were revamped in 2022, their damage scale was increased from 0,95 to 1.10. Blaster damage scale is 1.125, so sentinels really aren't lacking in damage any more. The big differences are that sentinels have lower target caps and shorter range than blasters and don't get Defiance. On the flip side, their T9s recharge in 90s (vs. 125-170s for most blaster T9s), which allows them to be used more frequently. Their inherent ability (Vulnerability) was tweaked but still only debuffs a single target.

[Falcon Striker]

1 hour ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Pardon me for not having carefully read the entire thread but "scope creep"?  Do you mean power creep?

haha yeah, my bad

[Uncle Shags]

4 hours ago, FFTMime said:

I confess I would appreciate some coherent advice on making dominators.. work. They felt bad on live. Not quite so bad here, but they still can't really perform. 

There's a whole forum over there in archetypes dedicated to doms if you're looking for tips. "Can't really perform" is a very subjective opinion. 

 

But it's not a huge secret. For me it went: Slot for recharge -> Get permadom -> Slot for damage and procs -> Stop playing it because it's so powerful that it feels like cheating.

 

OP.  My advice is for you and your friends to chill out.  You're level 13. CoH mechanics are very complicated and you'll not be able to differentiate balance from build from skill until you've got more of a grasp of the game. 

 

 

 

[gameboy1234]

5 hours ago, MTeague said:

Yea, I saw that. But only once ever have I seen people pysched when my Kintroller joined the team, and that was a Granite Tank, back on Live. 

Still, I accept your experience has been different than mine.

 

Same, I joined a TF, the last two of us zoned in where the team was, and the team that was already there went like Tank, Brute, Stalker, Tank, Scrapper, Stalker.  When the last two of us zoned in, it took about two seconds and then someone in team chat said "Two kins!!"

 

On Brutes, not sure what could fix them.  Maaaaybe slightly more HP.  Maybe a slightly higher "cap" for Fury.  But I'm just guessing.

 

 

[twozerofoxtrot]

5 hours ago, FFTMime said:

I confess I would appreciate some coherent advice on making dominators.. work. They felt bad on live. Not quite so bad here, but they still can't really perform. 

 

There was a player named @Voltak who, despite their unique formating and discussion style had really solid show-and-tell guides for how to conquer challenging content solo or in small yeams with Doms. Recommend searching for their posts and reading through them if you're interested in master classes. This is the last one I could find.

 

Another player who tackles tough challenges on Doms and shows how but is still present is @Frosticus. Search for their posts as well, and take the opportunity to ask questions since they're still active.

[MoonSheep]

7 hours ago, biostem said:

IMHO, if a particular enemy hasn't been defeated after the first opening volley, then that scrapper or stalker should find themselves in a very disadvantageous position, whereas a longer drawn-out battle should further fuel that brute's fury. increasing their damage even further...

 

i’d disagree for stalkers - the combo for quick AS into hide (using the ATO proc) and then a crit hit before shortly having a quick AS again makes stalkers quite good at destroying bosses/EBs

[biostem]

1 minute ago, MoonSheep said:

i’d disagree for stalkers - the combo for quick AS into hide (using the ATO proc) and then a crit hit before shortly having a quick AS again makes stalkers quite good at destroying bosses/EBs

Sure, but not multiple enemies and for protracted battles, (or at least that's how I envision them performing).

[MoonSheep]

8 hours ago, FFTMime said:

I confess I would appreciate some coherent advice on making dominators.. work. They felt bad on live. Not quite so bad here, but they still can't really perform. 

 

here’s a short and potentially argumentative guide:

 

some dom primary and secondaries suck

 

choose a mind/fire or plant/energy and you’ll have a whale of a time

 

don’t try to play it like a scrapper, switch on the brain and think about which enemies need to be mezzed or simply killed

 

use your bloody inspirations

 

get perma dom

 

you have now completed your 11 second guide on dominators

[Healix]

Back on live my healer used to get that kind of reception when added to a team....I sure miss feeling of being wanted and appreciated LOL

Edited Tuesday at 08:25 AM by Healix

[Snarky]

8 hours ago, srmalloy said:

I would have to go back and trawl through the archive of the Live forums, but I remember that it was the Mastermind archetype that was intended to be the closest analogue to Tankers in the CoV archetype list. Whether it's worked out that way in practice is definitely arguable.

Yeah, that is what the Dev vision was for Redside.  Then players.... started playing.  It takes too long for a MM to "Tank" and Brutes NEEDED to charge in (when Fury was much more volatile, and FUN)   So Brutes would roar into a mob and then everyone would follow.  and ROFLSTOMP teaming was born.  Brutes needed constant Fury feeding, and team speed became a very real thing.  

[Seed22]

12 hours ago, MTeague said:

To be fair, do you EVER see that reaction for ANY archtype ("Oh wow, we got a tank!  Oh wow, we got a blaster!") ? I don't.

Yes, all the time. I just don’t type it in team chat.