Review of i28 P2 on Massively

[Erratic1]

6 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

They are what created the power divide that's plagued the game since their introduction and made true balance impossible so they absolutely are part of the problem. How does a dev team, any dev team, balance around players using SOs and maybe a few common IOs with those who have full IO set builds? You can't.

 

Were they somehow managing to achieve balance against 15 ATs each of which has a dozen or more primary and a dozen or more secondary powersets?

 

 

[TygerDarkstorm]

5 hours ago, macskull said:

I'm not talking about just this patch, I'm talking about Homecoming's design philosophy as a whole. Making NPC groups harder or player powers/powersets weaker has very little impact on the "high end" of performance, but it does make things more difficult for players who are already running into hard spots.

This is kind of how I feel about the Page 2 changes to critter health regen--why are we making things more of a slog? Because of the sect of people who are blowing through +4/x8 solo? This change hurts players like myself who play as @Captain Fabulous mentions: with SO's and common IO's and sub-optimized builds. CoH isn't a for profit game anymore and making mobs more of a slog to defeat for those of us average players may cause some of us to leave the game, especially if we have limited time to play anyway.

 

It's one of the reasons I do try my best to be a part of beta testing because I see so many people jump into beta threads and comment based on their transferred over IO'd to the gills level 50 character and it's like, okay, but how does this perform while leveling? While not twinked? I haven't been able to beta test much this time around because my real life has been a bit consuming, but I appreciate anyone who says, hey, don't forget about the average players in these discussions and not just the geared out OP folks.

[Wavicle]

Has anyone playing on test ACTUALLY found it to be a slog? Or is that simply an assumption based on the patch notes?

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Has anyone playing on test ACTUALLY found it to be a slog? Or is that simply an assumption based on the patch notes?

I have seen several posts on these boards already showing slower times on missions, but it is hard to tell how much of that is due to the regen rate change or anything else. It’s worth pointing out that the change is literally doubling regen rates for most critters, which isn’t entirely insignificant.

[Wavicle]

6 minutes ago, macskull said:

I have seen several posts on these boards already showing slower times on missions, but it is hard to tell how much of that is due to the regen rate change or anything else. It’s worth pointing out that the change is literally doubling regen rates for most critters, which isn’t entirely insignificant.

Sure, but there’s a big range potentially between “not entirely insignificant” and “slog”. I certainly haven’t noticed any slog in my testing, using SOs and a few specials.

[Snarky]

8 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

What keeps getting lost in this conversation (and by the author(s) of this "article") is that majority of the playerbase are not high end speed runners 

i think a significant portion of the player base might be high.  but what is an "end speed runner?"

[TygerDarkstorm]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Has anyone playing on test ACTUALLY found it to be a slog? Or is that simply an assumption based on the patch notes?

On a level 20 plant/marine troller with basic IOs in beta, yes, I felt like just trying to take down even level groups was a slog.  The changes made might not be noticeable on every AT, but tankers and some trollers/doms are feeling it. At the moment, it's noticeably slower than on live, but I haven't been able to extensively test.

[srmalloy]

2 hours ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

This change hurts players like myself who play as @Captain Fabulous mentions: with SO's and common IO's and sub-optimized builds.

And I have to wonder how many people are just moving their existing characters across and testing the changes with their existing build, then perhaps respeccing to change the balance of their slotting, or pick different powers to work with the powerset changes -- but in every case, retaining their heavily set-ridden builds to test with -- and how many people are turning to the second or third build on their character and loading them up with SOs and common IOs, and testing what the effects of the patch are on characters that aren't tricked out so tightly that they scream.

[gameboy1234]

20 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Drama drives clicks...

 

This was my take also.  I read the article, and it seemed like more of a hot take, or a deliberate attempt to manufacture controversy.  I don't know if that's just the author's bias, or if there's an editorial policy to gin up articles.  They basically contradict themselves several times.  "I know that A is true and there's a lot of good reasons for it, but I'm going to deflect to B anyway!"  So it's an "ok" article if you take it as an opinion piece, but it seems like the article just doesn't reflect reality, it's got a definite slant to it.

 

All we need now is Wolf Blitzner reporting from the street, saying "Patch notes!  I see patch notes here!! There are patch notes!!"

 

[macskull]

4 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

 

This was my take also.  I read the article, and it seemed like more of a hot take, or a deliberate attempt to manufacture controversy.  I don't know if that's just the author's bias, or if there's an editorial policy to gin up articles.  They basically contradict themselves several times.  "I know that A is true and there's a lot of good reasons for it, but I'm going to deflect to B anyway!"  So it's an "ok" article if you take it as an opinion piece, but it seems like the article just doesn't reflect reality, it's got a definite slant to it.

 

All we need now is Wolf Blitzner reporting from the street, saying "Patch notes!  I see patch notes here!! There are patch notes!!"

 

I don’t think the author took the best (or even a very good) approach and he didn’t really do himself any favors because of that, but what I’m getting out of the article is an underlying frustration with how Homecoming approaches powers design and balance. 

[lemming]

35 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

And I have to wonder how many people are just moving their existing characters across and testing the changes with their existing build, then perhaps respeccing to change the balance of their slotting, or pick different powers to work with the powerset changes -- but in every case, retaining their heavily set-ridden builds to test with -- and how many people are turning to the second or third build on their character and loading them up with SOs and common IOs, and testing what the effects of the patch are on characters that aren't tricked out so tightly that they scream.

I did a few leveling run thrus and did a few copies of chars and then rejiggered for changes.   I also did some "copies" where my alt account ran the test and on live I ran the same missions.   Not enough time in RL  to do much in depth stuff since Open though.  (and a bit before)

[gameboy1234]

26 minutes ago, macskull said:

I don’t think the author took the best (or even a very good) approach and he didn’t really do himself any favors because of that, but what I’m getting out of the article is an underlying frustration with how Homecoming approaches powers design and balance. 

 

I personally don't have enough free time to "figure out" what the game numbers should be, I just trust the HC devs are close enough and roll with it.  The Tanker nerfs are going to hurt my Shield/War Mace tanker, but them's the breaks.  I'm not really even concerned.  It's a game, nothing to get too excited about.

 

I think the only speed concern I have is leveling speed.  It's way to easy to just blow past content, and it requires really careful management not to.  I think for new players especially this is an issue, but I'll admit that I get bit by this regularly.  I wouldn't mind an Option to just click and set your XP back to the current rate, I just want the default to be about half of what it currently is.

 

[TygerDarkstorm]

1 hour ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

On a level 20 plant/marine troller with basic IOs in beta, yes, I felt like just trying to take down even level groups was a slog.  The changes made might not be noticeable on every AT, but tankers and some trollers/doms are feeling it. At the moment, it's noticeably slower than on live, but I haven't been able to extensively test.

I desire to retract this a tad-I rolled an elec/sonic controller to test the new elec control changes and while things do take a bit longer to defeat, it's not nearly as slog feeling as on plant. Elec feels pretty great right now.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

I desire to retract this a tad-I rolled an elec/sonic controller to test the new elec control changes and while things do take a bit longer to defeat, it's not nearly as slog feeling as on plant. Elec feels pretty great right now.

I think “plant feels sluggish prior to the last couple powers” is valuable feedback.

[kelika2]

On 5/30/2025 at 7:41 PM, biostem said:

I think their perspective on the game's meta is derived from seeing people call for "speed" TFs or farms, not realizing that those don't comprise the majority of players, (only a small loud subsection)...

thats wishful thinking.  many tfs are speed

and 7 people generally dont like speaking up when one person speeds and the other 7 follow suit.. or speed is the standard now.  and if you do you are the bully and the 6 turn on you

 

sucks but thats homecoming and why i pretty much multibox with myself these days

[gameboy1234]

2 hours ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

I desire to retract this a tad-I rolled an elec/sonic controller to test the new elec control changes and while things do take a bit longer to defeat, it's not nearly as slog feeling as on plant. Elec feels pretty great right now.

 

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I think “plant feels sluggish prior to the last couple powers” is valuable feedback.

 

I agree, it's valuable feedback.  I'd add it to the beta feedback threads.

 

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, gameboy1234 said:

 

 

I agree, it's valuable feedback.  I'd add it to the beta feedback threads.

 

 

[MoonSheep]

7 hours ago, macskull said:

I have seen several posts on these boards already showing slower times on missions, but it is hard to tell how much of that is due to the regen rate change or anything else. It’s worth pointing out that the change is literally doubling regen rates for most critters, which isn’t entirely insignificant.

 

as someone who is thinking of making a radiation alt, this is good news! lingering radiation is back, baby

[Blackbird71]

On 5/31/2025 at 12:39 AM, Faultline said:

It's probably a bit late to try to steer the thread in a positive direction, but I'll try anyway:

• What parts of the article do you agree with?
• What parts do you think are completely wrong?
• What parts are you unsure about, and would like to clarify how you're taking that information?

As I've said many times before, I'm not a powers dev, so a proper discussion about the contents of the article would be helpful.

 

I agree with the general sentiments of the article:

 

Quote

 

The devs seem to be increasingly balancing out a part of the game that has always been unique and valuable about this game in particular – [...] these control changes [...] seem to be made based on some abstract ideals rather than the game and the metagame that actually exist here in 2025.

 

[...]the balance changes seem to be targeted at no one and with no comprehensive picture of how the game is supposed to play. They’re not all bad changes, nor do I think they are made by people who don’t care about the game, but I am beginning to suspect they’re made by people who don’t really see the game as a whole entity but as a lot of competing little bits and pieces in a spreadsheet full of numbers.

 

And that shakes out into downstream problems. If no one has a comprehensive picture of what the game’s balance is supposed to look like, and the end result is an MMORPG that feels as if the fun is slowly seeping out with each balance pass.

 

 

This puts into words the experience I've been having with just about every patch over the past few years - the "fun [has been] slowly seeping out with each balance pass."

 

Without any other clear direction, it seems that the pursuit of balance IS the primary impetus for the changes of each patch.  The problem with this philosophy is that "balance" in MMO games (especially ones with such a diverse range of character combinations and possibilities) is a myth.  It is the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, a mirage pursued with no real end, and no real prize to be achieved - all it amounts to is wasted effort chasing something that can never be had, and the loss of anything of actual and true value that could have been had in its place.

 

I've stayed with HC because it's where the community is and where my friends are.  However, the changes with each pass increasingly make me want to actually play the game less and less, not necessarily because of any specific change (though some have truly negatively affected my experience), but because the overall impact has been to make the game less enjoyable.

 

My recommendation would be to establish and clearly communicate a direction and intent for HC beyond "balance for balance's sake," and to focus on changes that actually make the gameplay mechanics "fun" over the homogenization that comes with just trying to make all the numbers match up.  Yes, I realize there is a great degree of subjectivity to the term "fun," and it will vary greatly depending on the individual, but even if the fun you focus on is not "my fun," having that as a goal over just "balance" would be an improvement over the current state of things.

 

[Captain Fabulous]

15 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Were they somehow managing to achieve balance against 15 ATs each of which has a dozen or more primary and a dozen or more secondary powersets?

Prior to IOs each AT had a role and sets within that AT were balanced with each other in regard to that role. It's one of the reasons why nearly every OG powerset follows the exact same pattern. IOs threw all that into a blender, with the ability to make godly any AT with any combination of powersets.

 

12 hours ago, Snarky said:

i think a significant portion of the player base might be high.  but what is an "end speed runner?"

I know I'm high. Are you high? 🤭

[tidge]

14 hours ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

This is kind of how I feel about the Page 2 changes to critter health regen--why ....

 

The MOAR REGEN for critters is a head-scratcher for me. I can think of only a handful of circumstances where this can be an issue:

• low-level characters that have low-tier Damage-over-Time powers... the DoT is going to make less of an effect
• (AFK) Farming characters that rely on DoT... this is going to slow them down
• solo-ish characters that get defeated (by a boss) and have to trudge back to the mission from a hospital... to find the baddies completely healed up.

If the reasoning was offered, I missed it. Maybe it's because new sets are getting -Regen components?

[Seed22]

18 hours ago, macskull said:

To be fair, "early spring" has come and gone and by the time Page 2 actually goes live it'll basically be summer. There's a good chunk of stuff in Page 2 that was originally slated for Page 1 - at the time this was supposed to mean a faster turnaround for Page 2, but here we are ten months later and it's just now gone to open beta.

And I will say I think there was some stuff cut for 2 that'll be in 3 on top of scope creep. I'm not even sure they want to fix the problem, just complain about it. The fix requires discipline but is doable. Smaller pages more frequently instead of megaplex sized pages each time but only once a year. 

 

Page 3 following their traditional method is probably going to, if they stick to getting two out this year, be launched in October/November. If it's bigger than 2 which I'm hearing in CB it might be, December will be the launch date.

[TygerDarkstorm]

4 hours ago, tidge said:

 

The MOAR REGEN for critters is a head-scratcher for me. I can think of only a handful of circumstances where this can be an issue:

• low-level characters that have low-tier Damage-over-Time powers... the DoT is going to make less of an effect
• (AFK) Farming characters that rely on DoT... this is going to slow them down
• solo-ish characters that get defeated (by a boss) and have to trudge back to the mission from a hospital... to find the baddies completely healed up.

If the reasoning was offered, I missed it. Maybe it's because new sets are getting -Regen components?

Can't say I've seen a reasoning for it in the patch notes unless I looked it over. It is a noticeable difference in kill time, but not drastically so after I've spent more time in testing and corrected a dumb mistake I made on my plant controller.

 

I still don't understand why this change needed to be made since it's not a for profit game anymore, so increasing our time spent in game is kind of a moot point. And it's still a change that punishes average/casual players than people who twink, play high damage characters, etc.

[Seed22]

11 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

as someone who is thinking of making a radiation alt, this is good news! lingering radiation is back, baby

Lingering was never not back and still wont be more noticeable with this patch. Bosses will get blitzed regardless of lingering being present, and AVs were unaffected.

[MoonSheep]

1 hour ago, Seed22 said:

Lingering was never not back and still wont be more noticeable with this patch. Bosses will get blitzed regardless of lingering being present, and AVs were unaffected.

 

lingering radiation is back on the shelf, baby!