How would you 'fix' Rage & Super Strength?

[Forager]

1 minute ago, skoryy said:

I see we're at the same discourse that killed the last attempts at 'fixing' Rage.

 

Now for my hot take: Super Strength for Scrappers doesn't work thematically. How do you get someone stronger than a tank or a brute yet only has middling HP and a 75% resist cap.

 

What do you mean by stronger?

[Erratic1]

6 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Now for my hot take: Super Strength for Scrappers doesn't work thematically. How do you get someone stronger than a tank or a brute yet only has middling HP and a 75% resist cap.

 

Oh, the nasty can of worms you've opened.

 

I have never been a fan of proliferating every melee primary and secondary to every melee AT, but with EA going to Tankers, that ship has sailed. 

 

Arguably modern Spider Man fits as he is probably just beneath Luke Cage levels of strength (there are far stronger superheroes, but undeniably you are in the realm of Super Strength well before you reach Superman, Gladiator, Hulk levels). Spiderman's trick is he mostly avoids taking damage via Spider Sense but if something does connect for whatever reason, he is going to go down to things individuals like The Thing or Luke Cage shrug off.

[Erratic1]

12 minutes ago, Forager said:

 

What do you mean by stronger?

 

She did include the word "thematically"--talking comic books, not game I think.

[Biff Pow]

21 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Make Rage a toggle, have it grant a Fatigue debuff with every attack made which increases endurance costs by 10% every 6 seconds to a maximum Fatigue cap of 20. Fatigue fades only when Rage is toggled off based on your Endurance recovery rate, but with a default rate of one stack every 6 seconds. 

 

I'm all for a toggle, but I know how upset some players get when you threaten to take away their double-stacked Rage (which I think it overrated myself.) A mutually exclusive option would be a better idea.

 

23 minutes ago, skoryy said:

INow for my hot take: Super Strength for Scrappers doesn't work thematically. How do you get someone stronger than a tank or a brute yet only has middling HP and a 75% resist cap.

 

I agree, but I also don't think Fiery Aura works thematically for Stalkers. Keeping ATs theme-based kind of went out the window years ago.

[skoryy]

13 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Oh, the nasty can of worms you've opened.

 

Ain't I a stinker?

 

13 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Arguably modern Spider Man fits as he is probably just beneath Luke Cage levels of strength

 

Okay, I can see it, though his primary method being web fluid would make me think he's more a dominator. Super Assault, anyone?

[Erratic1]

5 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Okay, I can see it, though his primary method being web fluid would make me think he's more a dominator. Super Assault, anyone?

 

He uses webs against lesser opponents and/or to delay stronger ones, but he can and does throw punches:

 

[Erratic1]

8 minutes ago, Biff Pow said:

I'm all for a toggle, but I know how upset some players get when you threaten to take away their double-stacked Rage (which I think it overrated myself.) A mutually exclusive option would be a better idea.

 

As upset as Plant Control users were about the most recent patch?

 

Assuming you're talking mutually exclusive like how people possessing Instant Healing got to keep it unless respecing into Reactive Regeneration, then call my proposal by a new name, Exertion.

[ParagonKid]

16 minutes ago, Biff Pow said:

I'm all for a toggle, but I know how upset some players get when you threaten to take away their double-stacked Rage (which I think it overrated myself.)

 

Like I said earlier in the thread, any time someone talks about "fixing SS/Rage" or proliferating it to Scrappers, it seems like the same few people come out of the woodwork sniffing around looking to make sure the set comes out the other end worse. There is an irrational, emotional objection to the set by people who hide it under a veneer of balance discussion.

[Hopeling]

1 hour ago, skoryy said:

Now for my hot take: Super Strength for Scrappers doesn't work thematically. How do you get someone stronger than a tank or a brute yet only has middling HP and a 75% resist cap.

 

To throw another name in the ring, She-Hulk is *very* clearly Super Strength as a powerset complete with foot stomps and hand claps, she starts at full power and doesn't ramp up, she is best known for her solo work, and she struggles a bit to fill a role when she's on a team, all things that scream "I'm a scrapper, not a brute and not a tank".

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Hopeling said:

To throw another name in the ring, She-Hulk is *very* clearly Super Strength as a powerset complete with foot stomps and hand claps, she starts at full power and doesn't ramp up, she is best known for her solo work, and she struggles a bit to fill a role when she's on a team, all things that scream "I'm a scrapper, not a brute and not a tank".

 

I would not consider She-Hulk a scrapper. A Brute perhaps. Same with Invincible (though I could see the argument moreso for Mark).

[WuTang]

Here's my thought about Rage crash, leave it up to the player.

 

Allow a single stack with no crash, but a double with crash, and this sort of makes sense as per how the power is. A little mad and meh but getting really mad takes it out of you.

 

OR....

Half the benefits without crash.

Allow a mutually exclusive toggle to opt for, like the Blaster's Device's Targeting Drone (+toHit and a +20% to damage) something like that but maybe more +damage.

Keep it as is but make the duration longer so the crashes aren't every 60 seconds when double stacked.

Make it similar to Bio Adaptation where you get a permanent offensive buff with a permanent mitigation debuff, while selected.

 

Just a few ideas....

 

I hate the crash as well.

 

-WT 

 

Edit: Also....what if Rage had a build up similar to Fury but with a much faster ramp up time (to where you get the stacks as if you have double rage) and if it isn't allowed to ramp back down after a certain amount of time then you get the crash. This also works thematically.

Edited July 8 by WuTang

[BforBrujah]

The one thing that sticks out to me is that we are taking Rage at base value. End Game, it's a 60 sec recharge on a 120 sec ability. Put that on auto, and you're looking at 160% damage, 40% to-hit, and only a 10sec crash every min. sure that's some down time, but it's also a perfect time to recast any non damage abilities you have (such as darkest night or tar patch from the epic pools). And if your on a Brute, that's a pretty consistent 360% self damage buff before even factoring in other powers or enhancements. Rage is in a good place i feel, you just can't take it at face value.

[Jacke]

A lot of interesting comments here.  Has me thinking things over (many not Super Strength related).

 

 

20 hours ago, Hopeling said:

Nobody cares that eg Hasten has an end crash....

 

But the Toon does care about the End crash from Hasten's buff ending.  In many cases that's made builds weak on net Recovery fall apart due to the -15 End loss.  That could be due to -Rec and -End from the Mobs that just pushed things to the point where the Hasten crash did in the Toon, dropping toggles and then doing like Blasters often do and eating the floor.  (I say that as my main is an AR/Devices Blaster who sometimes (but rarely now) lives the Blaster moto: Face down and proud!)

 

Sometimes those crashes matter, sometimes they don't.  But when those crashes still happen, sometimes they will matter when other things are happening.

 

I don't care that the Rage crash is just 10s in a minute or two.  I don't care that there are ways to work around the crash (but they're very awkward).  I just do not want to experience the Rage crash at all.

 

I know about the history of Rage.  I've had an idea for an Inv/Super Strength Tanker for a long time.  

 

Recreated that Inv/SS Tanker on Homecoming.  In all the recent builds since the bug that stopped the Rage crash was fixed, I've skipped Rage.

 

But as I learned from @Psyonico and my own experience, Super Strength without Rage is just lacking.  Can get away with it more on Teams when the Tanker is Tanking and the rest of the Team picks up the slack in Damage.  But I solo a lot.  I also don't do multiple builds on a Toon (just too much admin fiddling in a game with way too much admin fiddling already, as I've learned on my main AR/Dev Blaster, who does have 3 builds).  It's just one build and I'd not want Rage on my SS Tanker.  But that Super Strength Toon will be weaker for it.

 

So I used the Secret Weapon for not-right Toons: I rerolled the Toon.  Instead of a Inv/SS Tanker, it's a SS/Shield Brute.  I have other Inv Toons, but that will be my only SS Toon.

 

I've thought of changes to Rage that just won't work in a game.  If a Super Strength Toon really did rage, it would be a menace to its friends as well as its foes.  But if a Power was changed to add self-Confuse, that's worse than Knockback.  And see how welcome Knockback is on Teams.

 

I've thought of one working fix for the problems with Rage: add an alternate excluding Power Pick at the same Level as Rage called Mellow.  Started as a joke, now meant to be serious.

 

Because Superman is certainly Super Strength.  But Supes only truly rages rarely.  Which ain't how Rage works in City at this time.

 

 

[Ukase]

I played an Rad/SS tank and didn't even know there was a damage or end crash until I read about it here on the forums a couple of years ago. I never noticed it. But, I am obtuse. Once it was pointed out..I just used sands of mu during the down time. The end crash is still not noticed. 

So what's wrong with it? Beats me. I think it's a fun powerset to play. One of the better ones. Certainly better than street justice and dark. (for me - your preferences may differ) 

[Psyonico]

4 hours ago, WuTang said:

Allow a single stack with no crash, but a double with crash

I’ve suggested the same in the past and I feel like I was told that the devs tried this and the SS purists beanbagged it.

[Snarky]

On 7/7/2025 at 7:05 AM, Uun said:

I've been playing this game for 20+ years and I've never made a character with Super Strength. It simply doesn't interest me. Change Rage any way you like and it still won't interest me.

I like Super Strength concept super heroes. My main issue is not necessarily the game mechanic (which is F-ing annoying)    My main issue is the power locks you, conceptually, into a backstory/power explanation that has a manic depressive cycle in it.  I have weitten a couple of these and they can be funny. But not ALL my Super Strength concepts involve mania.   So….  For those others I just cannot write them in CoH/V. 

[WuTang]

1 hour ago, Psyonico said:

I’ve suggested the same in the past and I feel like I was told that the devs tried this and the SS purists beanbagged it.

Funny thing is, when double stacking, you don't actually get a minute of OMG kill'em ALL!!!!!, it's only 50 seconds; because for 10 you are hitting everything with a wet noodle. That doesn't feel very super strengthy to me. So not sure how the purist think a no crash situation is a bad one. Also the -50% end drain is f'ing real! Every 60 seconds I sap myself...

 

I do like the set though, but I think it works better for me on a resist or healing set or anything that doesn't rely on defense as its main mitigation and also has a great endurance sustain. 

 

On a team I think SS thrives. All but one element of the crash can be easily mitigated but also, I think most sets thrive on a team...even the poorly built ones.

 

Personally I think the crash is a bit much, but it only accounts for 17% of play and it does hit really hard.......for 50 seconds at a time.

 

Edit:

It anything, as often as the crash cycles, it's sort of like an out-of-shape fighter getting winded and asking for a time out every 50 seconds.

Edited July 8 by WuTang

[Neogumbercules]

Make Rage a power like Domination that you can't use by itself, with a bar that fills up when the user is attacked. You can activate the power at any time as long as you have more than 0 'Rage juice" and the duration of Rage will depend on how much roid rage you had when you clicked it. Your rage juice will slowly deplete during activation, and if it hits zero, Rage wears off and you have a crash.

 

You can choose to use it in a pinch for a short burst of power or wait for it to get full so you can keep it active for as long as possible.

 

Staying in combat (being attacked) will fill the rage bar even when it's active.

 

Math it out somehow so that if you actually PLAY hard enough, you can keep that bar filling up, and stay in permanent rage mode. Yes it's still perma-rage (OMG so overpowered in a game where controllers can farm +4/x8!!) BUT hear me out, we balance it out by the fact that the player has to put in effort (not just 2 50+5 recharges and Ctrl+click the power) to keep it going.

 

 

This works because it's not just a boring flat buff that has an annoying crash, or some kind of modified static power... it's an actual mechanic that promotes a "Hulk Smash!" playstyle and would be FUN to play against the Rage bar meta to get the most out of it. Also, because it promotes a fast and dangerous play style it actually creates more problems to solve with your build, which is a good thing, as it makes the entire leveling and playing process more engaging in an RPG sense.

 

You'll also have more fun keeping your teammates moving (and possibly annoyed) and rushing headfirst into potentially stupid situations to keep the bar up, which is exactly what a roid raging superhero/supervillain would be doing.

Edited July 8 by Neogumbercules

[Lazarus]

MY problem with rage is the CRASH, not because of game mechanics but the crash doesn't fit concept wise.

 

I cant recall ever reading a comic or seeing a movie where superman or hulk stopped MID fight saying I'm tired gimme a minute.

 

THESE super strong people don't tire out like that.

[Uun]

2 hours ago, Neogumbercules said:

Make Rage a power like Domination that you can't use by itself, with a bar that fills up when the user is attacked. You can activate the power at any time as long as you have more than 0 'Rage juice" and the duration of Rage will depend on how much roid rage you had when you clicked it. Your rage juice will slowly deplete during activation, and if it hits zero, Rage wears off and you have a crash.

 

You can choose to use it in a pinch for a short burst of power or wait for it to get full so you can keep it active for as long as possible.

 

Staying in combat (being attacked) will fill the rage bar even when it's active.

 

Math it out somehow so that if you actually PLAY hard enough, you can keep that bar filling up, and stay in permanent rage mode. Yes it's still perma-rage (OMG so overpowered in a game where controllers can farm +4/x8!!) BUT hear me out, we balance it out by the fact that the player has to put in effort (not just 2 50+5 recharges and Ctrl+click the power) to keep it going.

 

 

This works because it's not just a boring flat buff that has an annoying crash, or some kind of modified static power... it's an actual mechanic that promotes a "Hulk Smash!" playstyle and would be FUN to play against the Rage bar meta to get the most out of it. Also, because it promotes a fast and dangerous play style it actually creates more problems to solve with your build, which is a good thing, as it makes the entire leveling and playing process more engaging in an RPG sense.

 

You'll also have more fun keeping your teammates moving (and possibly annoyed) and rushing headfirst into potentially stupid situations to keep the bar up, which is exactly what a roid raging superhero/supervillain would be doing.

What you're describing is Fury (brute inherent) as it currently exists.

[Neogumbercules]

1 hour ago, Uun said:

What you're describing is Fury (brute inherent) as it currently exists.

I understand the similarities but I think this imaginary form of Rage would be more active and enjoyable. Also my suggestion is a power that you activate manually whenever you want and would be less forgiving than Fury in terms of maintaining it (as well as still having the crash if you let it drop) so it's similar in concept but mechanically very different.

Edited July 8 by Neogumbercules

[catsi563]

beyond some basic boosts to damage or effect I dont see much of a reason to really mess with SS and ive got several SS tanks and a brute

 

now Hurl I would LOVE to see it changed to a propel like power where the SS person randomly chucks a car or rock or forklift at some poor schlob

[OverkillEngine]

On 7/7/2025 at 5:19 PM, Erratic1 said:

 

Make Rage a toggle, have it grant a Fatigue debuff with every attack made which increases endurance costs by 10% every 6 seconds to a maximum Fatigue cap of 20. Fatigue fades only when Rage is toggled off based on your Endurance recovery rate, but with a default rate of one stack every 6 seconds. 

 

No more double stacking, a downside which is controllable, and some mitigation of downside based on how you build.

Heck, you wouldn't even have to go as far as quirky self token/debuff stacking mechanics - Just make a mutually exclusive crashless toggle that applies a penalty to power costs for all other powers. Any endurance penalty that makes you slow down your attacks is effectively the same thing as a DPS debuff.

Or if you really want to, make it give a recharge penalty for all other powers in addition to an endurance penalty (and make them exempt from enhancement). Kind of like how when the devs adjust the base damage of a power they (usually) also alter the base recharge scaling and endurance cost too. It just become the player's way of toggling that adjustment on and off at will. A Scrapper being able to obliterate a single +4 Boss with KO blow won't matter nearly so much if they have to wait until 2-3 spawns later to use it again and it ate a third or half their end bar. Or if by doing so they delayed the recharge of a critical mitigation power.

And either way the entire set could use a pass to ensure that it isn't reliant on pool attacks in a way that other sets are not. Just also make sure that the set is rebalanced in such a way that you can still skip 2-3 powers (but are not borderline forced to because they are meme-tier) without shooting your self in the foot. Because having to take every single power in a set for it to function worth a damn also sucks. Usually what this means for many melee sets, is that one of the T1/T2 powers, the Taunt/Confront power, and one misc power are what ends up being skippable.

Edited Friday at 12:16 AM by OverkillEngine

[bAss_ackwards]

On 7/7/2025 at 6:12 PM, Erratic1 said:

 

I would not consider She-Hulk a scrapper. A Brute perhaps. Same with Invincible (though I could see the argument moreso for Mark).

Jessica Jones is a super strength scrapper.

 

But really, the better question for the topic (in general, not directed at you) isn't "Are Scrappers and Stalkers capable of super strength?" the better question for a video game would be "Would players have fun with it if it were ported over to scrappers and stalkers?" Whether it gets modified or not during the porting proccess, to that I say: Who doesn't love new toys and more ways to express the characters we make? 😄

[Major_Decoy]

Maybe a kind of suite of options along side rage. You can only pick one, but you get an option of which one fits your character thematically. No numbers because I'm just spit balling things.

 

Strong like an ox: Increases the base damage of Super Strength attacks.

Deliberation: You attack slower but with more damage and more accuracy. Toggle, penalty to animation time, not recharge. This would require some work to have a set of super strength attacks that animate a bit longer. I would also have this increase the base damage of super strength attacks.

Let Loose: All of your attacks are now AoE. Toggle.

 

Edited Friday at 05:55 AM by Major_Decoy