Claws - Too many useless powers

[Troo]

Claws over performs on Scrappers compared to other archetypes.

 

Should the set rely on more than three or four powers?

Typical buzzsaw attack chain:

Follow Up -> Focus -> Slash -> [epic/other] -> repeat

 

Power	Level	Effect
Swipe	1	Melee, DMG(Lethal)
Strike	1	Melee, DMG(Lethal)
Slash	2	Melee, DoT(Lethal), Foe -DEF(All)
Spin	6	PBAoE, DMG(Lethal)
Follow Up	8	Melee, DMG(Lethal), Self +DMG, +To-Hit
Confront	12	Ranged, Foe Taunt
Focus	18	Ranged, DMG(Lethal), Foe Knockdown
Eviscerate	22	Melee (Cone), DMG(Lethal), +Special
Shockwave	26	Melee (Cone), DMG(Lethal), Foe Knockback

[Black Talon]

As my first and main - Black Talon, big shock - is Claws Scrapper, this is a subject I've certainly taken under some consideration.  At long-time 50, I've got the guy outfitted with every IO in the book, and have found that, as indicated, there's a pretty regular routine he runs through when going up against the Big Boys.

 

After boss-scrap prep work, the routine is Follow Up/Focus/Eviscerate/Focus/Follow Up/Rinse And Repeat.  Slash gets thrown in on the occasions when the others have got a second or two for recharge, but the main goal is keep the bad guys off their feet. This applies especially with Bane Spider Scouts, who can label out enough damage to get the ambulance coming, Regen powers notwithstanding.

 

The other set powers...well, they'll get thrown into the queue with minion groups, or to finish off Punk X who's down to his/her last scrape of hit points.  Also, not going to discount the bonuses that come from the IO placements.

 

As a closing point, will confirm that Shockwave is included in B.T.'s set simply to note that, "I've got 'em all."  It has one generic Acc enhancement in it, and have never had any use for it in a game-play situation.  Perhaps I've never given it sufficient chance to prove itself useful, but at present I'll stick with Focus to put bad guys on the floor in front of me, rather than scattering them to some inconvenient corner of the map.

[Seed22]

38 minutes ago, Troo said:

Claws over performs on Scrappers compared to other archetypes.

Do you have any data whatsoever to support this claim. CoH players LOVE to claim a set is overperforming because of reasons I won't list here with no data to back any of this up.

 

Ston has data that proves otherwise though, last I checked. 

 

Also what is with this trend of trying to get sets down to only 3-4 powers? There was another thread talking about too many powers and my personal opinion would probably derail the thread but I'm still scratching my head as to this train of thought.

Edited Sunday at 04:57 PM by Seed22

[arcane]

Level 1 power, Slash, Spin, Follow Up, Focus, Confront/Taunt, Shockwave. That’s 7 powers you should probably take right there. What exactly is the issue?

 

Is your argument that Claws has few worthwhile powers if you ignore all of the AoE’s and utility powers? If so can you explain how that doesn’t describe every set?

Edited Sunday at 05:53 PM by arcane

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Seed22 said:

Do you have any data whatsoever to support this claim.

 

Check Ston's data if that's your benchmark. 

Scrapper and Tanker have Claws at #6. Brutes drop to #13 while Stalkers see it plummet to bottom 5 on pylons. Trapdoor times move Scrappers up while Tanks go down.

"Claws over performs on Scrappers compared to other archetypes"

 

Top 3 or 4 on one AT vs bottom 20% on another - Disparity worthy of discussion.

 

As for the trend of trying to get sets down to only 3-4 powers. This runs counter to Devs who have said, even recently, that all powers in a set should be valuable enough and worth using as more than just set mules.

 

[Doomguide2005]

My own Claws/SR has 6, 5 of which see regular usage depending on what I'm trying to do.  3 of them get used on pretty much every AV or GM particularly when teamed as they hold the resist debuff procs (Slash, Spin, Shockwave).  Follow Up gets used pretty much as often as possible.  Strike is used as a filler, against nearly defeated or as a mule (chasing +max health).

 

Not her current slotting but a fun alternative in long past builds was Shockwave which among other weirdness had 3 level 53 Dam/Range HO's.  Had to be 'careful' not to knock mobs beyond my intended targets in the near spawn.

[arcane]

On 7/13/2025 at 1:14 PM, Troo said:

As for the trend of trying to get sets down to only 3-4 powers. This runs counter to Devs who have said, even recently, that all powers in a set should be valuable enough and worth using as more than just set mules.

Troo: “Claws has like 3 powers that aren’t useless - Follow Up, Slash, Focus, and THAT’S IT”

Others: “Assuming you had a stroke or something because Spin/Shockwave/Taunt aren’t exactly useless and by that standard every set has this issue”

Troo: *Repeats original claim*

Others: 🤯

 

Some people are simply impervious to outside information I suppose.

[Troo]

4 hours ago, arcane said:

Troo: “Claws has like 3 powers that aren’t useless - Follow Up, Slash, Focus, and THAT’S IT”

Others: “Assuming you had a stroke or something because Spin/Shockwave/Taunt aren’t exactly useless and by that standard every set has this issue”

Troo: *Repeats original claim*

Others: 🤯

 

Some people are simply impervious to outside information I suppose.

 

lol, what?!

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 7/13/2025 at 12:55 PM, Seed22 said:

Also what is with this trend of trying to get sets down to only 3-4 powers?

 

Sometimes I feel I'm playing a different game.  Why wouldn't you only use your best rotation?

 

My most effective scrappers are those that only *have* to take maybe 5-6 from their primary, tops.  Those power picks and slots get funneled into other powers that make them more survivable and deadly.

[biostem]

On 7/13/2025 at 12:55 PM, Seed22 said:

Also what is with this trend of trying to get sets down to only 3-4 powers?

Not that I employ this approach myself, but IMHO, what they're doing is looking at recharge and activation times, and thinking, what's the minimum number of attack powers I can take in order to have a continuous attack chain;  From an efficiency standpoint, it makes perfect sense, (similar to how some people won't use a heavy-hitting attack to finish off an enemy with only a sliver of health left).  This is also why many people are so fervent about wanting to do away with prerequisite powers;  They see anything short of calculated perfection as a waste...

[Captain Fabulous]

30 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

Sometimes I feel I'm playing a different game.  Why wouldn't you only use your best rotation?

 

My most effective scrappers are those that only *have* to take maybe 5-6 from their primary, tops.  Those power picks and slots get funneled into other powers that make them more survivable and deadly.

Because using the same 3-4 attacks over and over again can get boring AF? Because I play to have fun and really don't care if it takes me an extra second or two to kill something with my sub-optimal build and power rotation?

[biostem]

20 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Because using the same 3-4 attacks over and over again can get boring AF? Because I play to have fun and really don't care if it takes me an extra second or two to kill something with my sub-optimal build and power rotation?

Frankly, this is pretty much how things devolve around here;  Some folks want to min-max or otherwise tweak every aspect of their character to eek out every bit of performance possible.  And on the other end of the equation, we have those who play for aesthetics and concept.  I don't think we'll ever truly reconcile these 2 camps...

[Captain Fabulous]

21 minutes ago, biostem said:

Frankly, this is pretty much how things devolve around here;  Some folks want to min-max or otherwise tweak every aspect of their character to eek out every bit of performance possible.  And on the other end of the equation, we have those who play for aesthetics and concept.  I don't think we'll ever truly reconcile these 2 camps...

The problem at least as I see it is that the minmaxers seem to forget they are a small % of the playerbase, and that the rest of us actually exist and our play styles are just as valid as theirs. Just because we don't do it their way doesn't mean we're doing it wrong. It's unfathomable that people with suboptimal builds can actually have fun and enjoy themselves, completely unbothered by their suboptimalness.

[OverkillEngine]

And even within the minmaxers, there is variance that comes up every time there is an argument about power variations that are cones in some sets but pbaoes in others.

 

Neither is necessarily wrong per se. Those power formats are simply optimized for different situations and play-styles.

[skoryy]

[battlewraith]

6 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

The problem at least as I see it is that the minmaxers seem to forget they are a small % of the playerbase, and that the rest of us actually exist and our play styles are just as valid as theirs. Just because we don't do it their way doesn't mean we're doing it wrong. It's unfathomable that people with suboptimal builds can actually have fun and enjoy themselves, completely unbothered by their suboptimalness.

 

I don't disagree with your stance on this. I think people should play whatever they want. But I find it hard to believe that it's just a small group of min/maxers who are concerned with this stuff in light of all the nerfs that occur in this game.

 

Tanks get buffed. Wooooo tanks are great now.--Devs issue nerfs.

Weeee creeping vines is awesome.                     --Devs issue nerfs.

Etc.

 

I think you would have to believe that the Devs have an obsession with balance, which I guess is possible, or that people in general really do care if their powerset is suboptimal and they will complain about it. Based on my experience, it seems like the latter.

[WumpusRat]

I kind of wish people would stop using "but pylon tests show..." as the basis for their ideas on power balance.

 

Pylons are kind of a dumb thing to test on, because it's static. You can easily set up a kit to SPECIFICALLY take down pylons and nothing else, and skew results that way.

 

For instance, the "only three needed powers" referenced here? What about dealing with big groups of mobs? You have no aoe at all in your "these are the only good powers" argument.

So I guess you just whittle every enemy down one at a time, then? That seems like a waste, when you have perfectly solid aoes right there in your kit.

Or are you so reliant on your incarnate powers to deal with groups of mobs that you can't handle large packs more often than once every couple minutes?

 

Personally, most of my characters tend to have 5-6 attacks. Both for set bonuses as well as the fact that I don't build hasten on most of my characters. So I have 3-4 attacks to make up a nice single-target flow, and then a couple of aoes to toss into large groups of enemies.  I can jump into the middle of a pack, pop my aoes, finish off the ones that are at a sliver, then focus down the bosses that are left at half or so.

 

Maybe I just don't have the proper "must minmax everything to death" mindset.

[skoryy]

12 minutes ago, WumpusRat said:

Personally, most of my characters tend to have 5-6 attacks. Both for set bonuses as well as the fact that I don't build hasten on most of my characters. So I have 3-4 attacks to make up a nice single-target flow, and then a couple of aoes to toss into large groups of enemies.  I can jump into the middle of a pack, pop my aoes, finish off the ones that are at a sliver, then focus down the bosses that are left at half or so.

 

I build for most attacks even with Hasten since I like to exemplar from time to time. My proc bombed defenders are an exception, but they'll probably be spamming more heals than usual.

[Captain Fabulous]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

 

I don't disagree with your stance on this. I think people should play whatever they want. But I find it hard to believe that it's just a small group of min/maxers who are concerned with this stuff in light of all the nerfs that occur in this game.

 

Tanks get buffed. Wooooo tanks are great now.--Devs issue nerfs.

Weeee creeping vines is awesome.                     --Devs issue nerfs.

Etc.

 

I think you would have to believe that the Devs have an obsession with balance, which I guess is possible, or that people in general really do care if their powerset is suboptimal and they will complain about it. Based on my experience, it seems like the latter.

I can't speak directly to dev intentions. My limited interaction with them in closed beta leads me to believe they genuinely do care about balance and are constantly monitoring ATs and specific powersets (using data mining tools we don't have access to) to see which are over and under performing. For the two examples you cited, Tanks really weren't nerfed (the changes are a wash, people shouldn't notice any significant changes in Tank performance), and Creepers was straight up broken when it came to procs and was finally fixed.

You also have to remember only a very small % of the playerbase is active in the forums. They do tend to be more invested in the game (and very vocal about changes) than casual players who are largely unbothered by most changes (and I dare say in many cases don't even realize anything's changed). You also have to remember the game has always been balanced around SOs, not IOs/sets/procs/Incarnates/etc, because that's what the majority has access to and uses. That's the baseline.

I'll give you an example. I have a dear friend I recently discovered plays CoH with her husband. They are ultra casual players. They hop on for an hour or so maybe 1-2x a week as time permits and only play as a duo (I join them when I can and we play as a trio). They know nothing about the START vendor. Nothing about IOs or crafting. Nothing about DFB or TFs. Nothing about the Auction House or Architect. Nothing about transport hubs. Nothing about the forums. They run at the default notoriety settings (not sure they're even aware they can be changed). They take whatever powers look good to them, slotting in enhancements they get as drops and buying what they can with what little INF they have. They've been playing for years and the highest level characters they have are in the mid 20s. I've offered to give them build advice in terms of which powers to take and how to slot them and they are quite happy to just wing it as they go along. Playing with them is very different than the average PUG. They're not in any hurry to finish a mission. They leisurely go from one mob to the next with no care about their DPS or XP. They take the time to read all the mission text and are invested in the story. And in an hour of play time they maybe level up once. Maybe. 

From what we've always been told about the playerbase they are the majority, not the minmaxers or loud vocal forumites. And this is why suboptimal SO builds are the baseline. Because otherwise players like them would be forced out of the game.

[Seed22]

11 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

Sometimes I feel I'm playing a different game.  Why wouldn't you only use your best rotation?

 

My most effective scrappers are those that only *have* to take maybe 5-6 from their primary, tops.  Those power picks and slots get funneled into other powers that make them more survivable and deadly.

Im a minmaxer, I fully understand the concept of utilizing the optimal chain. If anyone’s playing a different game it’s me as I actually try and minmax which is anathema to this community at times it feels.

 

What I’m scratching my head at is in NO OTHER COMMUNITY have I or will I ever see the players advocate for the smallest amount of spells to be viable. I mean I know CoH is unique but this is a whole ‘nother level of head scratch.

 

In my mind, this concept is basically asking for someone to simplify the building process even more than it already is instead of, again imo, adding more diversity by making powers still niche but competitive picks in their own set. Basically turning duds like Handclap in SS into a “hrm this might be pretty interesting!” power would be my ideal situation. 
 

It still would boil down to a optimal rotation of only a handful of 3-4 powers, but that 3-4 optimal rotation won’t objectively blow everything hopelessly out the water as obvious dead picks wouldn’t exist.

 

Someone could make an off meta niche build and it wouldn’t be cringe inducing levels of bad, as there wouldn’t be the grand canyon sized gaps of today. 
 

Hell this would also make it so I could play more than a handful of sets in this game finally!

 

(the truly meta sets are pretty much all I can really stomach to play anymore as minmaxing non meta was fine, but uh…Ice/Cold go brrr on fender or corr, so…)

Edited Tuesday at 02:33 PM by Seed22

[battlewraith]

3 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

What I’m scratching my head at is in NO OTHER COMMUNITY have I or will I ever see the players advocate for the smallest amount of spells to be viable. I mean I know CoH is unique but this is a whole ‘nother level of head scratch.

 

It's a thing in pvp, which is almost exclusively centered around single target burst damage. You want as much damage, done in as few hits as possible, to land in the shortest window of time possible so that the enemy doesn't have time to heal up or run away. 

 

It's weird to talk about in pve. I don't think it really matters what the single target attack chain on a scrapper is like when you have people running around with procced out aoe attacks and in teams you'd do better with ranged dmg and debuffers anyway. 

[BZRKR]

/jranger 🙂

 

[battlewraith]

46 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

From what we've always been told about the playerbase they are the majority, not the minmaxers or loud vocal forumites.

 

 That might be the case, but it still seems to me to be misleading. Your friends might be in the majority in terms their playing habits. But if you look at a metric like hours spent playing, the bulk of those casual players might represent a minority of the player time actually spent ingame. 

[skoryy]

46 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

I'll give you an example. I have a dear friend I recently discovered plays CoH with her husband. They are ultra casual players. They hop on for an hour or so maybe 1-2x a week as time permits and only play as a duo (I join them when I can and we play as a trio). They know nothing about the START vendor. Nothing about IOs or crafting. Nothing about DFB or TFs. Nothing about the Auction House or Architect. Nothing about transport hubs. Nothing about the forums. They run at the default notoriety settings (not sure they're even aware they can be changed). They take whatever powers look good to them, slotting in enhancements they get as drops and buying what they can with what little INF they have. They've been playing for years and the highest level characters they have are in the mid 20s. I've offered to give them build advice in terms of which powers to take and how to slot them and they are quite happy to just wing it as they go along. Playing with them is very different than the average PUG. They're not in any hurry to finish a mission. They leisurely go from one mob to the next with no care about their DPS or XP. They take the time to read all the mission text and are invested in the story. And in an hour of play time they maybe level up once. Maybe. 

 

I've rushed a lot of characters to 50 because the Mids' build beckoned me. I'll use the occasional lunchtime to run my new tank through S/L farms for funsies. I'm currently running a new character through Praetoria without double XP to take in the storyline, and I'll be skipping the boosts once she hits the Isles as well.  I'm thinking of doing a future blueside story only run as well. I run with folks that stop their XP progression so they can finish the storyline and others that do mini-arena PvP.

 

Truth is, there's multiple ways to play this game and all are valid.

[Erratic1]

47 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

From what we've always been told about the playerbase they are the majority, not the minmaxers or loud vocal forumites. And this is why suboptimal SO builds are the baseline. Because otherwise players like them would be forced out of the game.

 

People who, after years, only have characters in their mid-20s are not operating in a realm where optimization matters much...or balance or other things which tend to be cared about in the big picture. That's fine for them but does not mean others are wrong for finding their enjoyment pushing performance.

 

As for the discussions you have on the forums regarding optimization, the exist because they, unlike "having fun" are deeper mines to plumb. Years ago on Live, I had a Traps/Assault Rifle character with no travel powers because he was meant to be a normal guy using normal tools. He was not optimal at anything and had some serious limitations compared to other characters. And working within those confines as a strictly solo character was fun, as a challenge. But where is the discussion to be had there? What I found fun would have been torture for others and simply uninteresting to yet others.