Knockback revision

[Atlas_Carter]

Would it be possible to change all knockback powers into knockup/knockdown instead?  It'd help melee out immensely, though it would invalidate the 'change knockback to knockdown/knockup' special abilities of some enhancements... I'm speaking from a melee afficionado's perspective however; what do you blaster/mastermind/defenders think, would this make your lives particularly difficult?

[Solarverse]

Would it be possible to change all knockback powers into knockup/knockdown instead?  It'd help melee out immensely, though it would invalidate the 'change knockback to knockdown/knockup' special abilities of some enhancements... I'm speaking from a melee afficionado's perspective however; what do you blaster/mastermind/defenders think, would this make your lives particularly difficult?

 

Believe it or not, there are players who feel that knock back is great. Some even view such a request as a way of trying to control how others play the game.

 

Only thing I can suggest is when a player uses their knock back irresponsibly, explain it to them first. If that doesnt work or they rage about it, kick them.

[Bossk_Hogg]

I'd go with a Null the Gull setting.

[Legree]

Absolutely NO.

 

Knockdown/Knockup is not the same thing as Knockback.  An Energy/Energy Blaster - for example - does not want a melee heavy Boss mob to be standing right next to them when they get back up, they want them halfway across the room, where they may well waste time using a weaker ranged attack before running back into melee range.  If you make good use of the environment (e.g. by knocking a target off a balcony) you can take them out of the fight for even longer.

 

Knockback - used with skill - is a very useful tool.  There is absolutely no reason to change this and doing so would ruin some of the most dynamic powers in the game.

 

 

[srmalloy]

One of the reasons why I used to pick Energy Manipulation as a secondary for Blasters is that the automatic tier 1 power was a "get away from me" ability that was useful for reestablishing range when a mob ran up into melee distance,as well as being soft CC that rendered the mob 'inactive' while it got back up. This proposal would kick half of the benefit into the ashcan. It would also make the strategic choice of whether or not to slot a KB->KD IO into powers pointless, with probably thousands of characters needing to alter their builds to reallocate the slots devoted to no-longer-needed IOs. And it changes the dynamics of several powersets -- look at Storm, for example, when Hurricane just flings mobs into the air.

 

Making it selectable through Null the Gull is going to be problematic, as people will want different powers to have different settings -- keeping Power Thrust or Gale as a knockback, while changing Hurricane to knock-up; this would make implementation significantly more complicated.

[Solarverse]

One of the reasons why I used to pick Energy Manipulation as a secondary for Blasters is that the automatic tier 1 power was a "get away from me" ability that was useful for reestablishing range when a mob ran up into melee distance,as well as being soft CC that rendered the mob 'inactive' while it got back up. This proposal would kick half of the benefit into the ashcan. It would also make the strategic choice of whether or not to slot a KB->KD IO into powers pointless, with probably thousands of characters needing to alter their builds to reallocate the slots devoted to no-longer-needed IOs. And it changes the dynamics of several powersets -- look at Storm, for example, when Hurricane just flings mobs into the air.

 

Making it selectable through Null the Gull is going to be problematic, as people will want different powers to have different settings -- keeping Power Thrust or Gale as a knockback, while changing Hurricane to knock-up; this would make implementation significantly more complicated.

 

Yeah, I would be a bit upset if my tier one energy secondary suddenly became a knock down.

 

The problem is not with Knock Back. The problem is with the players who either A: Dont know how to use it on teams who are trying to prevent mob scatter; or B: Are just trying to troll.

 

Education is key here. Help them learn good ways to apply knock back. If they wont listen, kick them. They would be happier being on a knock back team...or maybe even solo.

[justicebeliever]

One of the reasons why I used to pick Energy Manipulation as a secondary for Blasters is that the automatic tier 1 power was a "get away from me" ability that was useful for reestablishing range when a mob ran up into melee distance,as well as being soft CC that rendered the mob 'inactive' while it got back up. This proposal would kick half of the benefit into the ashcan. It would also make the strategic choice of whether or not to slot a KB->KD IO into powers pointless, with probably thousands of characters needing to alter their builds to reallocate the slots devoted to no-longer-needed IOs. And it changes the dynamics of several powersets -- look at Storm, for example, when Hurricane just flings mobs into the air.

 

Making it selectable through Null the Gull is going to be problematic, as people will want different powers to have different settings -- keeping Power Thrust or Gale as a knockback, while changing Hurricane to knock-up; this would make implementation significantly more complicated.

 

Yeah, I would be a bit upset if my tier one energy secondary suddenly became a knock down.

 

The problem is not with Knock Back. The problem is with the players who either A: Dont know how to use it on teams who are trying to prevent mob scatter; or B: Are just trying to troll.

 

Education is key here. Help them learn good ways to apply knock back. If they wont listen, kick them. They would be happier being on a knock back team...or maybe even solo.

 

I agree 100% with both srmalloy and Solarverse...  /jranger

[Sunsette]

I mostly agree with prior responses, but there's a third element (my personal pet peeve, really) that needs to get brought up:

 

The damn RNG slot machine design of some power sets.

 

KB is a powerful toolbox when used well, but if your entire power set does it randomly, you either find some other way to mitigate the effect that greatly impacts your play choices and damage output, like KB to KD (which does nothing for you on a lot of hard mobs) or commit to a leap of faith that most of the time those RNG knocks won't be a problem.

 

What's more, RNG knock is unhelpful even to the player using it solo. You can't knock someone again for most of their recovery animation; if you got a measly 1 mag KB on a 20% chance when you were queuing up your 15 mag monster next that animates too fast to cancel, well, sucks to be you.

 

The problem isn't knockback. It's that it's uncontrolled. But the lack of control is partly baked into some powersets that could use a relook 

[Atlas_Carter]

And this is why I put that last sentence in :) Thanks guys, I definitely see your point now, and I figured that blasters used it mostly as a 'back off!' but I wanted to get some more educated opinions in on the topic.

 

As a melee dude, it's a royal pain for me because I WANT the 'enemy is flat on their ass and has to get up again' mechanic, but not the "ah crap, they're on their ass then stumbling around all the way over there and I can't reach them because I have fifty other dopes nibbling my ankles and I can't push past them" mechanic which happens a lot with knockback, as previously mentioned.  When it happens randomly it makes it annoying.

 

As for players doing it deliberately, that's another kettle of fish and we won't discuss it here. 

 

There's also the question if this is even possible, which may not be the case.

[Legree]

You can't knock someone again for most of their recovery animation

 

I really wish I could KB a mob again while they're still standing up.  I find I actually pay more attention to exactly what a mob is doing when I'm on a KB-heavy character, so as to (hopefully) get the timing right and hit them again only after they're out of the recovery animation.  This is probably why I find Snakes (of all things) one of the more troublesome groups to fight - they get up fast, and I can't read their body language like I can on a human(oid) enemy.

 

I agree about the RNG.  If possible I like to keep a power with 100% KB in reserve for moments when I really need it but that's not always possible.  (then it misses, but at least I can slot for +accuracy)

 

Solutions?  My instinct is to say give every power 100% chance for KB but that would make sets like Energy Blast absurdly powerful since you could chain KB after KB after KB and nothing you were fighting would ever spend more than seconds on its feet.  Perhaps more realistically I would like to see an IO that you could slot to increase the chance of KB - not the magnitude, but the chance.  Those I would slot in a heartbeat.

[0th Power]

Would it be possible to change all knockback powers into knockup/knockdown instead?  It'd help melee out immensely, though it would invalidate the 'change knockback to knockdown/knockup' special abilities of some enhancements... I'm speaking from a melee afficionado's perspective however; what do you blaster/mastermind/defenders think, would this make your lives particularly difficult?

/jranger

[Chance Jackson]

As a melee & aoe aficionado I absolutely despise dealing with KBers in pugs I don't complain I just leave after the mission is complete, obviously that doesn't work for TFs sigh. Rather than a blanket solution that pisses off KBers, the KB vs KU/KD issue should be in the hands of team leaders.

[SwitchFade]

No.

[Sunsette]

Rather than a blanket solution that pisses off KBers, the KB vs KU/KD issue should be in the hands of team leaders.

 

I feel confident saying that this would also piss off KBers, and I'm speaking as a person that took an AoE immob to stop my own knockback 90% of the time.

[Chance Jackson]

One of the reasons why I used to pick Energy Manipulation as a secondary for Blasters is that the automatic tier 1 power was a "get away from me" ability that was useful for reestablishing range when a mob ran up into melee distance,as well as being soft CC that rendered the mob 'inactive' while it got back up. This proposal would kick half of the benefit into the ashcan. It would also make the strategic choice of whether or not to slot a KB->KD IO into powers pointless, with probably thousands of characters needing to alter their builds to reallocate the slots devoted to no-longer-needed IOs. And it changes the dynamics of several powersets -- look at Storm, for example, when Hurricane just flings mobs into the air.

 

Making it selectable through Null the Gull is going to be problematic, as people will want different powers to have different settings -- keeping Power Thrust or Gale as a knockback, while changing Hurricane to knock-up; this would make implementation significantly more complicated.

While you make some points worthy of consideration the bolded part isn't a bad thing.

[Chance Jackson]

I mostly agree with prior responses, but there's a third element (my personal pet peeve, really) that needs to get brought up:

 

The damn RNG slot machine design of some power sets.

 

KB is a powerful toolbox when used well, but if your entire power set does it randomly, you either find some other way to mitigate the effect that greatly impacts your play choices and damage output, like KB to KD (which does nothing for you on a lot of hard mobs) or commit to a leap of faith that most of the time those RNG knocks won't be a problem.

 

What's more, RNG knock is unhelpful even to the player using it solo. You can't knock someone again for most of their recovery animation; if you got a measly 1 mag KB on a 20% chance when you were queuing up your 15 mag monster next that animates too fast to cancel, well, sucks to be you.

 

The problem isn't knockback. It's that it's uncontrolled. But the lack of control is partly baked into some powersets that could use a relook

This is also a problem, that should be fixed.

[Chance Jackson]

Rather than a blanket solution that pisses off KBers, the KB vs KU/KD issue should be in the hands of team leaders.

 

I feel confident saying that this would also piss off KBers, and I'm speaking as a person that took an AoE immob to stop my own knockback 90% of the time.

I thought of it as a compromise that will leave no one side happy 100% of the time.

[Sunsette]

I understand the reasoning, but sometimes a solution that makes everyone unhappy isn't evidence of a good compromise, just an inadequate one. Allowing team leaders control of other people's abilities entirely is unprecedented and will just build bad feelings very efficiently based on each person's preference.

[Weylin]

What about an enhancement that can be slotted to reduce knockback range on a given power?

[Sunsette]

What about an enhancement that can be slotted to reduce knockback range on a given power?

 

That is effectively how KB to KD IOs work. They're a good but not perfect solution, for various reasons discussed elsewhere.

[Galaxy Brain]

I have a thread that also covers the KB topic, here: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/index.php/topic,6379.0.html

 

Im gonna mirror Sunsette in that a big issue is that it is inconsistent, but moreso KB as it stands is just not good when compared to KD and KU. The thread goes into more detail, but Im in the camp that KB is fun and super-heroic to do, its just a shame its not as good. So, why not make it actually good to make it worth mastering?

[kelly Rocket]

Rather than a blanket solution that pisses off KBers, the KB vs KU/KD issue should be in the hands of team leaders.

 

I feel confident saying that this would also piss off KBers, and I'm speaking as a person that took an AoE immob to stop my own knockback 90% of the time.

 

Then they can leave and find another team, tbh. Anyone that uses such a setting as team leader would just be kicking them without that setting anyway.