Flight speed needs a buff

[Trickshooter]

Only when you disregard the other benefits of Fly. Fly is the easiest to use, the safest to use, offers the most control of movement and has practical use in combat.

 

In all my years playing before sunset and now, never once have I found SS, SJ or Teleport any more or less difficult or unsafe to use than Fly.

 

I mean, if the only claim here is that you can afk and grab a coffee while auto flying to a mission door vs needing to run around a building with SS, then that really isn't an argument as far as I'm concerned.

 

Just about everyone I roll with doesn't use travel powers in missions either, unless they are stealthing one on a long TF or something, but in those instances they have invis running so "safety" isn't an issue.

 

I'm not sure how you want me to respond. I also play now and played before Sunset and Fly makes things like crossing zones when you're only at the lowest level for that zone easier, especially when most of the original contacts don't even stick to the same zone for their missions. It makes searching large instanced missions easier and safer. It makes escaping enemies on those maps easier too. And it makes fights safer, especially hunt missions, when I can stay completely at range by flying up.

[ShardWarrior]

Not sure what to say to this. The general consensus is that Fly is objectively easier to use than the other three, if for no other reason that you can get above danger and autopilot.

 

Is pressing the spacebar and/or using WASD while running/leaping really that difficult?  I can leap above and away from danger too.  I can also outrun it.

[Shinobu]

It should take a second power to make a travel power go as fast as the "speed" travel power.

 

You're still not getting it - very simple math here... 2 > 1.

 

Fly > Stuck on the Ground

 

What's not being said here is how much worse Super Jump and Teleport are in comparison to Super Speed or Flight.  If anything, those two need buffing somehow.  I never use either of them myself.

 

I've used super speed and flight in missions constantly.  I think I've only ever used teleport in a mission on a stone tank, and as for super jump... well you'd use combat jumping instead of course.

 

I don't know, Flight seems perfectly fine to me and is incredibly useful, as has been pointed out.  Super Speed is also incredibly useful, especially for stealthing.  It makes perfect sense to me that Flight requires an extra power to reach the same speeds (roughly) as Super Speed, because it has quite a few other benefits as an outdoor travel power.  If you increase the speed of flight, then what's the purpose of Afterburner?  If you make Afterburner useless, then what do you replace it with?  If flight is as fast as super speed and also has additional benefits of avoiding ground geography, then are we going to do anything with super jump and teleport so that they can keep up?  It seems to me that we're A)  Trying to fix something that isn't actually broken, and B) opening up a can of worms in terms of other things that will need to be adjusted or fixed or have a whole new power created to replace the one that we're invalidating.

 

[Sunsette]

Difficult, no. I actually think it's really fun, in fact, to make a game out of jumping over obstacles and dashing around them. I also think it's fun to dodge tall buildings and navigate windy caves with afterburner.

 

But it is more involved in any case -- I can just go on autorun for a sec and tab out while flying if I want.

 

I don't think the devs messed up by adding afterburner, but I do think the speed pool needs something else good to recommend it. Hasten is ridiculously good and Superspeed has its uses -- recently doing the Praetorian underground I was just remarking how much better it would be to have superspeed there -- but there's nothing to ever make you want to go three deep in Speed. Could we have a "Super Flurry" attack or like a crashless mini-Elude or something?

 

And yes, SJ could use something since it's now lackluster against Fly and Superspeed -- we're not the same game we were at Issue 0 with Praetoria, Ninja Run, Inherent Fitness, etc. Teleport's biggest issue is that it's supreme at transport but it does literally nothing for you in combat except in PvP but also in PvP everyone takes the IO to resist enemy teleports I assume...

[Lockpick]

I love SS too, it gives a great stealth buff, and doesn’t require 3 powers to be useful (Hover, Fly, Afterburner).  Because afterburner is truly useless in all ways except as a travel power.

 

You can also use Afterburner as an "Oh Crap" button similar to Personal Force Field.  Afterburner adds 10.5% (unslotted), so for my characters that have Afterburner it will take them over the soft-cap and allow them to heal or get away.  Haven't had to use it like this yet, but it could be used like this as far as I know.  Obviously, PFF is much more effective at 50.5% (unslotted), but Afterburner can help, so something to consider.

 

Also, you don't need hover, I always take AS, which is great for knocking down bad guys.

[EggKookoo]

I don't think the devs messed up by adding afterburner...

 

I think Afterburner takes away something that made Super Speed feel thematic and fun.

 

...but I do think the speed pool needs something else good to recommend it. Hasten is ridiculously good and Superspeed has its uses -- recently doing the Praetorian underground I was just remarking how much better it would be to have superspeed there -- but there's nothing to ever make you want to go three deep in Speed. Could we have a "Super Flurry" attack or like a crashless mini-Elude or something?

 

The concept behind Burnout isn't too bad. Maybe instead of a one-off switch, you got a passive that works like Brute Fury, but instead of doing more damage as you fight, you gain recharge (and the +recharge buff wears off quickly once you stop fighting). It could become fairly powerful but watch that endurance!

 

Or maybe you cause a kind of -recharge debuff on enemies, which represents your increase in speed over them. Less exciting but also less risky, I suppose.

 

Or maybe something that works in conjunction with Hasten, since most Speed pool users are going to have it. Honestly I think Hasten needs an overhaul anyway.

 

There are endless ideas. I just think they picked a poor one.

[Indystruck]

Fly is the more versatile power. Fly can beat SS just about anywhere without Afterburner. Afterburner just makes it so you'll basically always be the first to a door. It is fine. Afterburner is also nice to take as a LotG mule.

[biostem]

Really think flight speed needs to be increased to bring it in line with other travel sets.  It's a complete waste to have to take 2 powers in the flight pool to access Afterburner in order to make flight travel time almost comparable to other travel powers.  Also a waste of slots - 3 slots in SJ is still a bit faster for me to get around vs. 6 slots for flight (3 fly, 3 afterburner).

 

I have an idea - let's drop flights maximum vertical height to that of whatever you can normally jump at, then we can increase it's horizontal speed...

[Sunsette]

I don't think the devs messed up by adding afterburner...

 

I think Afterburner takes away something that made Super Speed feel thematic and fun.

 

As far as flight... I think it was a mistake to begin with that flight's 'ultimate' achievement was group fly (but not any worse than whirlwind; LRT and Acrobatics were always good until there were too many convenience ports and the nerf, respectively). I also think it was a mistake that characters never 'felt' fast while flying until Afterburner , given that many iconic flyers are very fast in their flight.

 

I see what you mean about Super Speed being allowed to raise the flight cap instead and that could have been fine too, I remember wishing that it worked that way back in early issues. But I have no preference here since lately there's a shift to make people who are fast flyers not also be as fast running. Superman's ground superspeed has been inconsistently but usually de-emphasized the last few decades, for example.

 

My problem with Burnout (and also with Hasten) is that it's not really how Superspeed actually works in comics and I don't see it ever doing anything like that in Pencil and Paper. Being able to do everything more often isn't the same as doing those things faster. Being able to do things more often is really about your stamina, not your speed. If I could have built the game from scratch, I'd have made animation times able to change dynamically with Hasten effects, but have it do nothing to the global recharge. I remember taking super speed on my Martial Artist and just gawking at how -not- fast any of his attacks felt.

 

Sometime around the T9 he learned chi flight instead and I abandoned the notion that he was a superspeedster.

 

Anyway, too late to fix Hasten, but I don't think it's too late to give Superspeed things that feel fast in combat. Hell, I'd be down for 'speedburner', a slottable auto that makes Superspeed raise your defense somewhat  and reduces the effect of travel power suppression.

[EggKookoo]

My problem with Burnout (and also with Hasten) is that it's not really how Superspeed actually works in comics and I don't see it ever doing anything like that in Pencil and Paper. Being able to do everything more often isn't the same as doing those things faster. Being able to do things more often is really about your stamina, not your speed. If I could have built the game from scratch, I'd have made animation times able to change dynamically with Hasten effects, but have it do nothing to the global recharge. I remember taking super speed on my Martial Artist and just gawking at how -not- fast any of his attacks felt.

 

In the comics, superspeed "ultimate" powers often involved some level of reality-bending that just won't work in a multiplayer game. Things like bullet time, or time travel, or phasing through solid objects. I mean imagine trying pull off the Quicksilver "Time in a Bottle" sequence in CoH.

 

Speed should, of course, carry an inherent defense bonus and an inherent slow resist, but that doesn't feel very "ultimate." I guess a rapid attack could work mechanically but we already have Flurry and Whirlwind. If the game engine supported it, running up walls and buildings might have just been fun and useful enough to be an answer to Afterburner.

 

(Also, on a side note, when running with Super Speed on water, we should actually run, not Super Swim. But that's neither here nor there.)

 

Regardless, about the OP, I say thee nay. Fly speed is fine as is.

[Sunsette]

100% agreed with that last post on everything (AND BUFF FLURRY).

[justicebeliever]

My problem with Burnout (and also with Hasten) is that it's not really how Superspeed actually works in comics and I don't see it ever doing anything like that in Pencil and Paper. Being able to do everything more often isn't the same as doing those things faster. Being able to do things more often is really about your stamina, not your speed. If I could have built the game from scratch, I'd have made animation times able to change dynamically with Hasten effects, but have it do nothing to the global recharge. I remember taking super speed on my Martial Artist and just gawking at how -not- fast any of his attacks felt.

 

In the comics, superspeed "ultimate" powers often involved some level of reality-bending that just won't work in a multiplayer game. Things like bullet time, or time travel, or phasing through solid objects. I mean imagine trying pull off the Quicksilver "Time in a Bottle" sequence in CoH.

 

Speed should, of course, carry an inherent defense bonus and an inherent slow resist, but that doesn't feel very "ultimate." I guess a rapid attack could work mechanically but we already have Flurry and Whirlwind. If the game engine supported it, running up walls and buildings might have just been fun and useful enough to be an answer to Afterburner.

 

(Also, on a side note, when running with Super Speed on water, we should actually run, not Super Swim. But that's neither here nor there.)

 

Regardless, about the OP, I say thee nay. Fly speed is fine as is.

 

+1 EggKooKoo

[ShardWarrior]

Fly is the more versatile power. Fly can beat SS just about anywhere without Afterburner. Afterburner just makes it so you'll basically always be the first to a door. It is fine. Afterburner is also nice to take as a LotG mule.

 

So you can't run faster from one end of IP to the other with SS than I can fly?  Uhm, no - not buying it because I've seen it and experienced it many times.

 

IMO there should never have been separate travel pools - just a single inherent "travel" where you can toggle if you want to run fast, jump high, or fly.

 

 

 

[Sunsette]

So you can't run faster from one end of IP to the other with SS than I can fly?  Uhm, no - not buying it because I've seen it and experienced it many times.

 

IMO there should never have been separate travel pools - just a single inherent "travel" where you can toggle if you want to run fast, jump high, or fly.

 

IP is one zone -- there's only a handful that are very large to begin with, and some of them are very inhibitive to the ground.

 

Cannot say no to that idea emphatically enough; that's an example of convenience bleeding into characters losing their identity as characters.

[ShardWarrior]

Cannot say no to that idea emphatically enough; that's an example of convenience bleeding into characters losing their identity as characters.

 

How?  If you want to fly, toggle on fly.  If you want to leap, toggle on leaping.  If you want to run, toggle on run.  You lose absolutely nothing as far as identity.

[DSorrow]

Fly is the more versatile power. Fly can beat SS just about anywhere without Afterburner. Afterburner just makes it so you'll basically always be the first to a door. It is fine. Afterburner is also nice to take as a LotG mule.

 

So you can't run faster from one end of IP to the other with SS than I can fly?  Uhm, no - not buying it because I've seen it and experienced it many times.

 

IMO there should never have been separate travel pools - just a single inherent "travel" where you can toggle if you want to run fast, jump high, or fly.

 

Yes, in one zone SS beats Fly in getting to missions. What about stuff like Shadow Shard? Does its existence validate an improvement for SS vertical travel? We can compare anecdotes all day long if you want to, but I doubt I'd still agree with you that Fly needs to be buffed. What it loses in straight up speed it makes up for by being able to choose the shortest trajectories and convenience. In most cases that ability to to avoid geometry makes travel times pretty even, sometimes better (Shadow Shard) and only in zones with notable stretches of flat ground (IP) you clearly lose.

 

Like I said before, the only thing I'd consider is increasing the base speed cap for flying so that there would be a point to Flight speed enhancements for characters who don't take Afterburner.

 

For the record, around half of my characters take flying for their travel power because I like the convenience of it and Hover is basically melee immunity for ranged characters.

[EggKookoo]

So you can't run faster from one end of IP to the other with SS than I can fly?  Uhm, no - not buying it because I've seen it and experienced it many times.

 

Fly + Afterburner? That will beat SS 9 times out of 10 in any realistic scenario (where you have to deal with verticals). No one's saying Fly + Afterburner is literally faster than SS. I mean we can see the actual numbers in the game. SS is marginally faster.

 

In actual gameplay, with actual zones and not laboratory conditions, Fly + Afterburner not only beats SS most of the time, but beats it by significant margins. SS only starts to catch up when you combine it with SJ. Which is frustrating for the travel power based on "speed." Maybe they should just rename it Brisk Jogging...

 

Not that we need to boost SS, but why can't Afterburner make that move faster too?

[PaxArcana]

Moving A to B, straight line, with little or no vertical element?  SS should always win over Fly (and SJ should be in second place)

 

A to B, with a couple turns to avoid large vertical obstacles?  SS should drop back to second place, tied with SJ.  Fly should still come in last.

 

A to B, with large voids (or canyons, etc) to get over, a la the Shadow Shard?  SS drops to last place (either it never gets there, or it has to go the looooooong way around to find bridges, stairs, and so forth), SJ stays in second place, and Fly finally takes the gold.

 

That's the way it should be: the more vertical control you have, the less raw speed you have.

[ShardWarrior]

Like I said before, the only thing I'd consider is increasing the base speed cap for flying so that there would be a point to Flight speed enhancements for characters who don't take Afterburner.

 

^ This would be acceptable.  It just needs something IMO.  By itself, it's too slow as far as I'm concerned.  It's more like "float gently" rather than fly. 

 

For the record, around half of my characters take flying for their travel power because I like the convenience of it and Hover is basically melee immunity for ranged characters.

 

Personally, I've never found SS, SJ or Teleport to be "inconvenient".  The only travel I find inconvenient is those jump portals in the shadowshard.  Those are annoying. 

 

I have various alts who all use different travels for thematic reasons.  Under the majority of circumstances, I get where I need to go faster on characters that do not have flight because they just move faster.

 

 

[EggKookoo]

^ This would be acceptable.  It just needs something IMO.  By itself, it's too slow as far as I'm concerned.  It's more like "float gently" rather than fly.

 

How about we give it a toggle power that raises the speed cap? I know, probably too much work to implement...

[ShardWarrior]

Fly + Afterburner? That will beat SS 9 times out of 10 in any realistic scenario (where you have to deal with verticals).

 

And what about fly without afterburner?

[Hyperstrike]

Flight + Afterburner is now effectively faster than Super Speed. You know, the travel power with "speed" in its name.

 

That's the point - one pool needs 2 power selections to bring it on par with 1 power from the other.

 

I'd also argue that "convenience" is irrelevant in a game where jetpacks, teleporters and such are available for purchase at any time. 

 

What you're missing is that, while SuperSpeed has the advantage in raw speed, Flight has the advantage in pure 3D positional control and terrain avoidance.

[EggKookoo]

Fly + Afterburner? That will beat SS 9 times out of 10 in any realistic scenario (where you have to deal with verticals).

And what about fly without afterburner?

 

Fly by itself shouldn't even come close to Super Speed.

[ShardWarrior]

What you're missing is that, while SuperSpeed has the advantage in raw speed, Flight has the advantage in pure 3D positional control and terrain avoidance.

 

What you're missing is I'm not missing that.  I get it.  I also know that on characters that have SS, SJ or Teleport, I'm still getting to where I need to go faster than on characters who just have flight.

 

 

How about we give it a toggle power that raises the speed cap? I know, probably too much work to implement...

 

Totally acceptable as it avoids needing to piss away 2 other power selections and slots.

[PaxArcana]

So you can't run faster from one end of IP to the other with SS than I can fly?

 

Define "one end to the other".

 

How about, middle of the west side, to the middle of the east side ... without getting wet?  SS and SJ alike would be absolutely screwed, for that one.

 

Corner to Corner, again without getting wet?  I'm honestly not sure if Fly will outpace both SS and SJ, but it's not as cut and dried as you obviously want it to be.

 

...

 

But, hey, IP is as flat and LONG a zone as you can find in the game.  Let's try it again in Faultline.  North to south, no other restrictions.  (Hint: SS loses the race.)

 

Or, Crey's Folly, and back to "no getting wet".  (SS loses again.)