Thoughts on making a Super Strength Scrappers

[Ironscarlet]

Since rage is not going to be reverted  back to no -def buff when double stacked. Was thinking, there's nothing really holding SS from going to Scrappers anymore. People back in the day said it would be overpowered but with -def crashes from rage it might fit quit well with Scrappers. What's your opinion on this should Scrappers finally get Super Strength ?

Edited August 6, 2019 by Ironscarlet

[Vanden]

Being able to skip the defense debuff in Rage was far from the only reason Scrappers never got Super Strength.

[biostem]

2 hours ago, Ironscarlet said:

Since rage is not going to be reverted  back to no -def buff when double stacked. Was thinking, there's nothing really holding SS from going to Scrappers anymore. People back in the day said it would be overpowered but with -def crashes from rage it might fit quit well with Scrappers. What's your opinion on this should Scrappers finally get Super Strength ?

Would you be willing to see the set ported over, only rage was dropped and replaced with something like build up instead?

[wjrasmussen]

Rage for scrappers?  No.  And nothing similar but different.

[MunkiLord]

Super Strength should be ported to Scrappers, there isn't a good game related reason for it not to be.

 

edit: Stone Melee too

Edited August 6, 2019 by MunkiLord

[Warlawk]

1 hour ago, MunkiLord said:

Super Strength should be ported to Scrappers, there isn't a good game related reason for it not to be.

 

edit: Stone Melee too

Seconded though I'm indifferent to Stone Melee. Variety is good.

[MunkiLord]

I'm actually the opposite, I really want Stone Melee and I'm indifferent about Super Strength. But a lot of people want it, and I agree variety is good.

[Sniktch]

To paraphrase one of the live devs:  "Stacked Rage made Scrappers with SS do....ugly things."  Stone I'd be fine with, Super Strength only if Rage got changed to Build Up or similar for them.

[jubakumbi]

Power up a personal server and tweak the SS numbers and powers on a Scrapper until it looks good, then share the data.

 

Everyone is terrified of the Scrapper crits with SS, IRRC, so just tweak the numbers.

 

No need to wait for someone else to do it...

[drbuzzard]

Having the rage damage bonus with the scrapper damage scalar would be over the top. Were it switched to just build up, sure, though I doubt people would want it then. 

[MunkiLord]

Tweak the Rage numbers. This game has LONG since gone past the point of any real balance. So holding back a port like this for that reason just doesn't hold up. Tweak the numbers until they are in line with what other sets do give or take. Titan Weapons has by far the most damage potential for Scrappers and other sets are still used and it hasn't broken the game.

[jubakumbi]

2 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

Tweak the Rage numbers. This game has LONG since gone past the point of any real balance. So holding back a port like this for that reason just doesn't hold up. Tweak the numbers until they are in line with what other sets do give or take. Titan Weapons has by far the most damage potential for Scrappers and other sets are still used and it hasn't broken the game.

Yup.

 

IMO, there seems to be some pervasive idea that 'the entire population' will all run to make the 'most powerful combo available' and all others will go un-used.

 

I have yet to see this happen in this game, since the largest portion of the population cares more about fun than min/max.

 

IME, the people focused on 'beating the game ASAP' who follow the current meta like it's a religion, don't really stick around very long after doing so.

 

Why does this 'flocking to the meta' fear exist, I wonder?

[MunkiLord]

I'm sure it happens in some games, but with the content in CoH being trivial for most teams, I just don't see it happening here on any real scale. Even with the huge numbers of Spines/Fire Brutes, there are still a significant amount of other Brute combos being played. So unless something is magnitudes more powerful than anything else we have now, it's a concern that I haven't seen backed up by any real evidence.

 

Now if the people in charge don't have the time to make such a port, or even if they just don't feel like dealing with it, so be it. That wouldn't bother me one bit. But the reasons I keep hearing over and over and over and over just don't hold up. People want to play it, so I think it's a good idea to let them. Those that don't want to play it, don't have to. It's a win-win.

[Hopeling]

28 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Yup.

 

IMO, there seems to be some pervasive idea that 'the entire population' will all run to make the 'most powerful combo available' and all others will go un-used.

 

I have yet to see this happen in this game, since the largest portion of the population cares more about fun than min/max.

 

IME, the people focused on 'beating the game ASAP' who follow the current meta like it's a religion, don't really stick around very long after doing so.

 

Why does this 'flocking to the meta' fear exist, I wonder?

Honestly, this feels to me like a straw man.

 

People don't want things to be overpowered because, broadly speaking, games are more fun when they're balanced than when they're wildly imbalanced. I don't care if somebody else rerolls, and I don't expect them to reroll en masse. But when I'm on a team, I like to feel like I'm contributing. If one teammate wildly overshadows everyone else, the game starts to seem a lot less fun. If they wildly overshadow everyone else strictly because they clicked the right icons at character creation, that's more annoying than being overshadowed because they're a good player or have invested a lot of time into building up the character - at least those give you something to aspire to, rather than just a feeling that you made the wrong character.

 

I'm not saying SS scrappers would completely break the game by themselves. But when people talk about wanting balance, that's not a separate goal from wanting the game to be fun. CoH players talk a lot about how they like this game because it makes them feel super, so sure, characters should be powerful. But this is also a multiplayer game, and you don't feel very super when you're totally outclassed.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Hopeling

[ShardWarrior]

20 hours ago, biostem said:

Would you be willing to see the set ported over, only rage was dropped and replaced with something like build up instead?

I only speak for myself here - yes, absolutely.

[MunkiLord]

3 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

 

 

I'm not saying SS scrappers would completely break the game by themselves. But when people talk about wanting balance, that's not a separate goal from wanting the game to be fun.

But this is a ship that has long since sailed. The likely outcome of SS being ported is the powerset someone chooses would be different. So instead of Elec/SD or TW/Bio, maybe they'll be making SS/Shield(or Bio). All three would have the same impact on minions and LTs since those melt as is. I could be wrong on this, but I don't see SS surpassing TW in single target damage. So really it's just changing the flavor. Plus Rage numbers can be modified to reign in it some.

[jubakumbi]

4 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

Honestly, this feels to me like a straw man.

 

People don't want things to be overpowered because, broadly speaking, games are more fun when they're balanced than when they're wildly imbalanced. I don't care if somebody else rerolls, and I don't expect them to reroll en masse. But when I'm on a team, I like to feel like I'm contributing. If one teammate wildly overshadows everyone else, the game starts to seem a lot less fun. If they wildly overshadow everyone else strictly because they clicked the right icons at character creation, that's more annoying than being overshadowed because they're a good player or have invested a lot of time into building up the character - at least those give you something to aspire to, rather than just a feeling that you made the wrong character.

 

I'm not saying SS scrappers would completely break the game by themselves. But when people talk about wanting balance, that's not a separate goal from wanting the game to be fun. CoH players talk a lot about how they like this game because it makes them feel super, so sure, characters should be powerful. But this is also a multiplayer game, and you don't feel very super when you're totally outclassed.

While I understand your point, the constant refrain to support this has in fact been about 'everyone' will do it and it will ruin the game, for the very reason you bring up, because some portion of the playerbase will suddenly 'feel' as if they have 'made a mistake'.

 

To that I say, try and avoid peer pressure and anxiety based envy.

 

If you don't like playing with a character that makes you 'feel' as if you mad e a mistake, don't play with that character.

For that matter, don't let the actions of others in game impact you, at all, for any reason.

At a fundamental level, IMO, it is terribly silly to think just because someone else can build/has a character more powerful than yours.

Why would you even care? Why would you succumb to elemetary playground level peer pressure over getting a few larger damage numbers in a game?

[justicebeliever]

29 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

I'm not saying SS scrappers would completely break the game by themselves. But when people talk about wanting balance, that's not a separate goal from wanting the game to be fun. CoH players talk a lot about how they like this game because it makes them feel super, so sure, characters should be powerful. But this is also a multiplayer game, and you don't feel very super when you're totally outclassed.

Exactly correct...It is a multiplayer game and it needs to support some level of AT & powerset balance, so that the game is engaging (fun) for everyone on the team.  

[HelenCarnate]

I just want to see a scrapper crit on KO blow with double rage and with bio giving more +damage and resist. 

[Hopeling]

 

1 hour ago, MunkiLord said:

But this is a ship that has long since sailed. The likely outcome of SS being ported is the powerset someone chooses would be different. So instead of Elec/SD or TW/Bio, maybe they'll be making SS/Shield(or Bio). All three would have the same impact on minions and LTs since those melt as is. I could be wrong on this, but I don't see SS surpassing TW in single target damage. So really it's just changing the flavor. Plus Rage numbers can be modified to reign in it some.

I'm not sure SS would surpass TW in single-target damage either, but I'm not convinced it wouldn't, especially since fast-Moonbeam becomes an option - and I haven't seen anybody make a serious attempt to run the numbers. +200% damage on a Scrapper is a lot.

 

Just to throw out a super dumb candidate for an attack chain, with double Rage and ED-capped damage slotting, assuming a straight port, KOB - Haymaker - Burn - Dark Blast - Moonbeam, plus Blazing Aura, is ~310 DPS. Double Rage means a crash for 10s out of every 60, so knock off 1/6 of that (you don't quite do zero damage during the crash, but for simplicity let's say you do) and you've got about 260 DPS left. This is before even counting crits, never mind Incarnate powers, procs, Fiery Embrace, and whatever else you can cram into a pylon test. I know that's not a record yet, but that's pretty ridiculous performance for "I haven't even attempted to optimize this". For comparison, the TW chain Rend-FT-Arc-CB-FT does about 240 DPS under the same conditions, counting crits and the -res from Rend Armor.

 

And single-target DPS isn't the only metric in play; Rage is so strong primarily because of the way it boosts attacks outside of the primary, including AoE powers. SS by itself does only OK damage; SS plus Burn plus epic pools is amazing. Throw in a Foot Stomp in that attack chain and you're still looking at ~230 DPS single-target, while also doing about 1200 damage to ten nearby targets every 12 seconds.

 

And while scrappers benefit more than brutes from +damage, they'd suffer less from the defense crash. Scrappers just take less aggro, so 10 seconds of vulnerability is less of an issue. They also have access to Shadow Meld (in the same pool as Moonbeam, no less) which is essentially perfect for mitigating the crash.

 

If Rage was tweaked in the port, even just reducing the buff to ~60% per stack instead of ~100%, sure. My dream scenario is that they rework it to get rid of that stupid unresistable -def at the same time they port it...

1 hour ago, jubakumbi said:

While I understand your point, the constant refrain to support this has in fact been about 'everyone' will do it and it will ruin the game, for the very reason you bring up, because some portion of the playerbase will suddenly 'feel' as if they have 'made a mistake'.

I've been a scrapper forum regular since long before shutdown. I've participated in most of these discussions. That's never been the primary objection. It has come up, so sure, I guess it's unfair to call it a strawman. I agree that it's not a strong argument. Rerolling FOTM isn't the problem; it's a symptom of the problem, and only manifests in players with a certain mindset.

 

The primary objection is straightforward: a straight port of SS would be overpowered. You can attempt to dispute that point; I'm sympathetic to what MunkiLord said above about how it might not be any more OP than some other sets (although I'm not convinced he's correct about it). But when people respond to this by saying that games shouldn't even try to be balanced and it's the player's fault if they want to contribute, I'm not really sure how to even have a conversation, besides describing some of the ways in which imbalanced games are less fun. Balance is important in games of every genre, even the ones where rerolling isn't a thing.

 

(Occasionally people also object because SS doesn't fit Scrappers thematically. I think this is the very worst argument.)

Edited August 7, 2019 by Hopeling

[MunkiLord]

I agree a straight port would be too much. I think the best solution would be to tweak Rage to put it more in line with other sets with it likely being in the upper end. If this were up for a vote, mine would be to stick it on test with modified Rage numbers and tweak from there. There are enough people, especially Scrappers, testing builds on the Test server that we could have real reliable data in a short amount of time.

 

I agree a constant 200% damage buff is a lot, it's why DM/SD is so good. Now that I've put some thought into it, SS/SD sounds amazing and I want one. Before today I didn't really care about SS specifically.

[jubakumbi]

I am totally onboard with not doing a straight port, there needs to be tweaking.

 

Scrapper SS can be bad for all I care, I would still use it as it fits some of my character concepts and prefernces better than Tank or a Brute.

 

As for overall balance, I have to admit, I really don't care all that much.

While some relative level of overall balance is nice, IMO, Thor and Hawkeye are not 'balanced'.

This does not make either power level is, IMO, more or less fun to play, it just means they are different.

 

I really do not care at all if someone 'feels' like other players can build stronger/better characters - this already happens daily...

[Warlawk]

3 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

I am totally onboard with not doing a straight port, there needs to be tweaking.

 

Scrapper SS can be bad for all I care, I would still use it as it fits some of my character concepts and prefernces better than Tank or a Brute.

 

As for overall balance, I have to admit, I really don't care all that much.

While some relative level of overall balance is nice, IMO, Thor and Hawkeye are not 'balanced'.

This does not make either power level is, IMO, more or less fun to play, it just means they are different.

 

I really do not care at all if someone 'feels' like other players can build stronger/better characters - this already happens daily...

Well said all around. I completely support tweaking rage numbers for a scrapper port but do not support changing rage to a build up style power. Rage is what makes SS different from other sets, don't change that.

 

In regards to balance, this can be a deceptive thing. When I play a melee AT on a team and jump in to take alphas and wreck faces, even when I am running a full IO build with defense cap at level 30 I know in my heart of hearts that while I look impressive, the support ATs actually have a bigger impact than I do. When I play a support/ranged DPS I really appreciate the people taking the alpha and distracting enemies for me while I act the enabler and let them smash face with tons of -res/def/CC/whatevs.

A character can be OP without being overshadowing.

[justicebeliever]

5 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Thor and Hawkeye are not 'balanced'.

One of the limitations of game mechanics...it CoH, A Trick Arrow/Archery Defender and an Inv/Titan Weapon tank can be balanced...

[ShardWarrior]

3 hours ago, Hopeling said:

I'm not saying SS scrappers would completely break the game by themselves. But when people talk about wanting balance, that's not a separate goal from wanting the game to be fun. CoH players talk a lot about how they like this game because it makes them feel super, so sure, characters should be powerful. But this is also a multiplayer game, and you don't feel very super when you're totally outclassed.

I totally understand where you are coming from, however I would argue that Incarnates and IOs have already caused certain ATs/combos to become redundant or even unnecessary.  Just speaking from my own experience here - I've been on TF runs where fully pimped out blasters are able to blow through everything and solo EBs solo without dropping any significant HP or END,  it makes the need for CC/Debuff/Heals "nice to have". 

 

Also, this is only true if you are only looking at it from one side of the coin - it makes the assumption that everyone will select the "most powerful" combo there is and never try to play anything else.  This is not the goal of every player out there.