Is empathy worth having

[biostem]

Rylas, all that graph shows is that a lot of people take empathy, not whether it is more or less effective/useful/desired on teams...

[Hjarki]

On 8/30/2019 at 10:24 AM, ParaBruce said:

Hjarki, the endgame you're talking about is like mythic raiding in World of Warcraft, from what I can tell. It's very much a real thing and people are out there doing it right now, but...it's not the norm, or anywhere close to it. We need more layers, I think, to distinguish those who who are playing at 50 with individual IOs, those playing with sets but no particular planning (and who are likely to never touch Mid's/Pine/Hero Designer), and a couple strata of increasingly carefully designed and lavishly funded builds. There are a lot of people out there at 50 who are not executing anything much in the way of a plan, and taking part with varying degrees of interest and enthusiasm in stuff with varying degrees of difficulty and prerequisites.

In my classification, the builds you're talking about would constitute 'mid-game' builds, so I'm not sure more layers are really needed. I think discriminating between a fully-developed and not-fully-developed game situation is useful. If you're never planning to play in the 'late game' category, then you can safely ignore discussion of that.

 

But I can almost guarantee if you're a level 50 running your Invention IO-only build, you're going to find groups where you just feel useless with builds that have no real 'late game' option attached to them. You're going to watch near-invulnerable powerhouses do everything while you desperately try to keep up.

[Rylas]

On 8/30/2019 at 10:53 PM, biostem said:

Rylas, all that graph shows is that a lot of people take empathy, not whether it is more or less effective/useful/desired on teams...

True, popularity is not an indication of functionality. My post was meant to be a bit more tongue-in-cheek. Clearly there's no telling how many of those Emps made it to late game levels.

[Rylas]

21 hours ago, Hjarki said:

In my classification, the builds you're talking about would constitute 'mid-game' builds, so I'm not sure more layers are really needed. I think discriminating between a fully-developed and not-fully-developed game situation is useful. If you're never planning to play in the 'late game' category, then you can safely ignore discussion of that.

 

But I can almost guarantee if you're a level 50 running your Invention IO-only build, you're going to find groups where you just feel useless with builds that have no real 'late game' option attached to them. You're going to watch near-invulnerable powerhouses do everything while you desperately try to keep up.

But that's the thing; what you're talking about is highly specific. There's no data to show how much of the game's population bothers with builds that strongly built. What's more, it wouldn't apply only to Empathy, making it an odd choice to specifically call it out.

 

I'm also of the mindset that these are things that become unavoidable without making all power sets near cookie-cutter duplicates of the highest IO built performing power sets. And then  they'd still be pointless sets in the eyes of min/maxing-focused players because they don't really offer anything different.

 

Don't get me wrong. In your highly-specific situation, yes, there will be winners and losers in the popularity contest. I'm just not sure how relevant that highly specific situation is towards needing to be addressed.

[Sancerre]

33 minutes ago, Rylas said:

True, popularity is not an indication of functionality. My post was meant to be a bit more tongue-in-cheek. Clearly there's no telling how many of those Emps made it to late game levels.

it could honestly just be a matter of how many people made an empathy defender and ran it through DFB to lvl 16 and never played it again.  why?  likely because back in the day everybody NEEDED an emp defender in a team to function.  if you take a look at scrappers, regen is the most popular secondary, despite it being by the far the WORST secondary.  why? likely because back in the day it was actually the best.  the game is different today.

 

you've gone pretty far off of the OP's main topic:

On 8/27/2019 at 9:22 AM, Sechill71511 said:

is empathy defender worth having in higher lvls, everyone seems to be able to handle them selves. so is having a healer needed?

generally no, but they do have value.  at higher levels/IO sets/incarnate powers, there are often better support archetypes to be running - notably kinetics, time, and radiation.  these sets are better mostly because the buffs/debuffs also affect the defender, whereas empathy is 90% useless solo.  and this matters because the defender can actually be another self-functioning teammate that doesnt need an empathy/force field defender babysitting them.

 

also, there was a good point about knowing that you will be teaming with someone.  if you guarantee you will always be with an emp defender, you can forsake end recovery and defense options in your build in favor of more recharge or damage.  or for anyone with a snipe, you wont need to be concerned about slotting out tactics to achieve the +22% to hit threshold (although this matters far less with the recent patch).

Edited September 1, 2019 by Sancerre

[Hjarki]

38 minutes ago, Rylas said:

But that's the thing; what you're talking about is highly specific. There's no data to show how much of the game's population bothers with builds that strongly built. What's more, it wouldn't apply only to Empathy, making it an odd choice to specifically call it out.

 

I'm also of the mindset that these are things that become unavoidable without making all power sets near cookie-cutter duplicates of the highest IO built performing power sets. And then  they'd still be pointless sets in the eyes of min/maxing-focused players because they don't really offer anything different.

 

Don't get me wrong. In your highly-specific situation, yes, there will be winners and losers in the popularity contest. I'm just not sure how relevant that highly specific situation is towards needing to be addressed.

I don't believe it's all that 'highly specific'. On Live, the kinds of 'late game' builds I'm talking about took a long time to develop. On Homecoming? I'd say they're the norm at higher levels. It's not just me and a few of my elite friends - I'm not even all that 'elite'. It's virtually every PI mission team I see, where you've got characters who could solo the x8/+4 content but bring others along.

 

People play the game in a variety of ways. But I don't see any virtue in sticking your head in the sand and pretending that the 'late game' I'm talking about doesn't exist - or that everyone will eventually reach the point where they're playing alongside such builds.

[Auroxis]

17 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

People play the game in a variety of ways. But I don't see any virtue in sticking your head in the sand and pretending that the 'late game' I'm talking about doesn't exist - or that everyone will eventually reach the point where they're playing alongside such builds.

While having offensive utility for content where your mitigation isn't needed is important, keep in mind late-game doesn't only encompass that.

 

Late-game can be hami raids and some incarnate trials, where heals+regen buffs are useful. Late-game can be doing the weekly task forces for double merits, where you'll often play together with very weak characters and those heals+buffs will come in very handy. Late-game can be keeping your team's lore pets alive longer.

 

43 minutes ago, Sancerre said:

Empathy is 90% useless solo.

Regeneration Aura makes you quite tanky with high uptime, and my Empathy build has hardcapped resists as well as softcapped defenses. Then there's the subject of blasts, which a good defender can definitely get some damage out of if built correctly. Whether it be by choosing sonic or by proccing out your blasts.

[Redlynne]

Cipher posted these today.

 

 

What I take away from this datamining is that only ~10% of the PCs created have made it to the mid-30s ... but of those who do reach the mid-30s, most of them keep going until reaching Level 50.  That's because the bottom two bar graphs are remarkably similar in shape, and Empathy is CLEARLY the most commonly picked and played to 50 primary powerset for Defenders (at the moment).

 

At least there's a little bit of reshuffling in popularity for the secondary powersets, as level ranges increase.

 

And yes, I'm amused to see that Time/Dual Pistols is not an inherently majorly popular combination, despite (or because of?) all the posting that's been expended on those builds in these forums.  Just goes to show, once again, that there's more to the game and the community playing it than what you see here in the forums.

[ParaBruce]

Oh, wow, thank you, @Rylas. I love reading this kind of thing, so much. Data porn! 😄

 

The more I read these, the more fascinated I get. It is with no sense of insult toward any of the game's various sub-communities that I boggle at how much level 50 play out there diverges from prevailing discussion in here. Doesn't make either the overall trends or preferences here invalid, at all; just makes them divergent.

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by ParaBruce

[Rylas]

 

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

People play the game in a variety of ways. But I don't see any virtue in sticking your head in the sand and pretending that the 'late game' I'm talking about doesn't exist - or that everyone will eventually reach the point where they're playing alongside such builds.

Yikes. I'm not coming across if that's the way you think I'm being. There's no sticking my head in the sand. Let me reiterate. I DON'T DENY that people make high end builds that require almost no help (if any) from anyone else. Or that those builds happen in at least somewhat common numbers. Nor am I pretending the late game you're talking about doesn't exist. I couldn't deny it, because I do it myself. I have toons that will solo +4/x8 quite well. Not all content, mind you, but what they need to for me to have fun with them.

 

What I AM SAYING, is that it doesn't happen to the degree at which point we have to ask if any sets are even worth having. For specific situations? Sure, they might not. But then again, NOTHING is needed. No one AT. No one power set. Just because it's possible to make it so that you or your team don't need Power Set X, doesn't mean X has an issue. Because any team or character could be built so that variable X could be filled with basically any power set.

[ambpup]

The odd thing about being a late-game empathy for me was that I was asked more for being "me" then my power set.  Like able to follow orders, knowing my power sets and how best to use it, being there when stuff started to go south and able to set it right again. Being a solid team member is more important then your build to most people, and its only when you're trying something risky do the high end builds matter.  Once we did a 3/3 def/cor ITF and it was a total blast using my empathy def to keep things fun and safe for the rest of the group. 

 

But give me someone that knows their "crappy" power set over someone that's clueless to their perfect killing-machine. I still have nightmares to that one TF where the guy was PL to 50th in his very first tank. My 3D  spent so much time face-planting that I thought we should invest in carpet for the AV's lair.

Edited November 5, 2019 by ambpup
editing it down a little.

[Nemu]

Empathy is still great late game outside of Hamidon raids and other specific game content by virtue of Clear Mind alone. The Emp that knows who to CM (generally squishies that lack mez protection, not tanks, there are exceptions to this) and when to CM (Arachnos) and does so proactively is a keeper.

 

Emp/sonic is a good combo for damage amplification and support, as well as illusion/emp for control/support. Illusion is fire and forget and allows you more time to focus on the emp part during battles.

[Doomguide2005]

Well I'm a tad biased.  I've seen what a mixed group of 7 random defenders  and a single controller can do 4 of whom were Emp defenders.  All 8 were from the RO network doing a Statesman's Master run and they utterly owned the Patrons, Recluse and everything else.  And last but hardly least I've seen what Green Machine (RO's all Empathy SG) can do.  I also had, on live, 6 Empathy characters sitting at 50 (Emp/Sonic x2, Emp/Dark, Emp/Rad, Emp/AR, and an Earth/Emp troller).   So the answer to the OPs question from me is a big YES, Empathy is quite capable of performing at 50+  "Healers" not so much.  But I'm a tad biased 😁

[Call Me Awesome]

I'm probably a bit biased but for the most part I look for buffs/debuffs in a Defender to work as a force multiplier.  On an Emp, Recovery Aura is unlimited endurance... GREAT for the blast happy members of the team so they can continue going full speed ahead without running low on endurance.  Regeneration Aura makes your team Regenerate almost like a Regen scrapper so there's little to no patching up to do.  Fortitude?  More damage output from the character you put it on and less incoming damage to fix.  Your heals really come last in utility once you get into the mid game and beyond.

 

That said, and while a good emp who used the buffs then starts joining in on the blasting fun is useful I'd rather have many other sets instead.  Kin, Rad, Nature, Dark, Sonic, FF are sets I like to see on a team more than an Emp.

[ambpup]

Its doubtful if I was building the perfect team I would choice a Emp Defender unless we where going on certain missions. But normally one don't get the choice to build the perfect mix of arch-types and just have to go with whatever shows-up. Just because you have a great build with the best IOs doesn't mean the other guy does and having a Emp Defender on the team gives some leeway.  My 50th lvl main could keep Fortirude on six teammates and had perm AB with the Auras on a two min recharge. If I had to throw a heal, it was just to top off everyone near the end of the battle.

 

Hami raids where kinda boring for her on tank duty, more chat time then anything else. Often we were just pointing out to each other what was happening with the other teams. But during early game, I love to have a emp defender about to save my behind. Mid-game, auras are pretty nice when you're three mobs in and you're endurance is near empty. Up pass 40th lvl, its mostly TFs missions I expect to see one and pass 50.... I normally don't expect to see a Emp Defender about unless its hami raid or something like that.

 

So is a Emp Defender handle to have around, I would say yes mostly. Kinda like saying is a tank handle to have around, and I would say about the same. Get the right group together and you don't need either. 

[Clave Dark 5]

I sure hope so, I just got my Empathy 'troller to fifty a few days ago. 

 

That said, never had anyone complain to see me walk through the door on their team.

[Abraxus]

I have a freshly minted Level 50 Empathy Defender.  I have found that even playing with mainly L50 members, not everybody has solved their END problems by that point, so I hit them with Adrenaline Boost.  People still die, despite my best efforts to the contrary, on occasion.  I hit them with Vengeance, then Rez them.  I try to spread Fortitude to all the damage dealers on the team.  I use the small single target heal when I see a squishie loosing health, and I use the BIG heal when I see a Brute, or Tank losing steam.  I keep my Defense, Damage, and To-Hit buff toggles running all the time.  For some, they help.  For others, they are already soft-capped, and don't need it.  But, it's there regardless.  If things are running smooth, I attack more.  If things are hairy, I heal/buff more.

 

I think Healers still have a roll in the later game.  But, like all Archetypes, that role does evolve a bit towards the later levels, but as long as you can role with those changes, playing one is still fun.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Abraxus

[ShardWarrior]

I actually rolled my very first toon from back in the day again recently.  She was an EMP/Rad Blast Defender.  When the game was live and being the completest I am, I got her all the way to 50 and beyond. 

 

I remade her as a Fire/Energy blaster here on Homecoming because as sentimental I am as she was my first character to 50, most of the time I either loved or truly hated playing her when she was an EMP Defender.  Strange as it sounds, I always feel like something of a bad parent when playing her now as a Blaster. 

 

I had the pleasure of teaming with a few EMPs of late doing Incarnate Trials and various +4x8 TFs.  Was tremendous fun to have them on the team.  I had forgotten just how powerful/fun Fortitude, Adrenalin Boost, Auras etc.  can be when you're buffed by them. 

 

Soon as I finish my Street Justice/SR scrapper alt, she'll be my next project.

[nzer]

On 8/27/2019 at 6:49 AM, Hjarki said:

Fulcrum Shift is a great ability, but if you're planning to use it on a single Scrapper you might as well just play a clone of that Scrapper - you'd end up with a more flexible, more durable team that did just as much damage.

This depends how close to the damage cap the scrapper is to start with, no? FS is capable of more than doubling damage.